Focused Feedback: Powerset - Plant Control

[WindDemon21]

Regarding the plant changes as a whole, this is where we should be ending up at:

 

Seeds: higher recharge, fine, lower duration, fine but not as low as they are making it, place it somewhere in between at a 16 scalar, leave the 16 target cap alone.

 

Creepers: changing some of the proc interaction, fine, but up the base damage a bit to compensate an in-between. Fix the bug or intention so that they continue to spawn as they always have one vine per target constantly.

 

Spirit tree: Greatly increase it's hp/resistance/defense so that it can actually handle alphas. Otherwise this whole extra mechanic is pretty much useless and just causes aggro. Keep it with the longer duration, even up it to 2 minutes, but instead fix the actual main issue of the power that it has always been. Lower the recharge to 30-60 seconds, increase it's base regen to 250% regen (buff every mob, but slight nerf to perma'ing two of them), and make it non-stackable. This way it's the every mob power that it should be and just baseline helps keep team and creepers alive (next to no end result of being OP compared to what it does not, just simply usable with good effect every mob. The 60s duration means you're still going for recharge only now you have to constantly recast it every 30 seconds which becomes more of a chore than it should be.

 

Spores: general sleep change, it's fine.

 

Vines: we don't need every aoe hold to be a patch, and likewise this isn't needed here. It can stay as a regular taoe click, though given the other benefits i won't complain about this one in particular. Only across all aoe holds, they should be having more than base accuracy, or at the very least base accuracy. They don't need an acc penalty when nukes are out there with a bonus base accuracy and aim/build up, and just delete the mob altogether instead as it is.

[gameboy1234]

4 hours ago, Caimie said:

I'm kind of confused as to why Spirit Tree was given a taunt, since it's more of a utility skill than anything.

Why not give Creepers the taunt by spawning a Vine when it's summoned to taunt,

 

I haven't tested yet, but I was thinking the same thing.  It's a *Spirit* Tree, it shouldn't really interact with anything nor take damage.  The fact that it can't take damage I'd guess is why the og devs decided to call it a "spirit" tree in the first place.  Adding a taunt to other pets, like the vines or creepers and that weird venus flytrap thing, might be a better move from a conceptual perspective.  I'd give those other summons a small AoE punchvoke on each of their attacks, a chance to pull the target and one or two folks nearby onto them.

 

Mechanically it might not mater, but having people punching your spirit tree is a little weird.

 

[ExeErdna]

As somebody that plays with a Plant/Nature damn near every day. The Creepers even if they're "bugged" and Seeds are "overtuned" it's nothing compared to some other sets. Yeah I can Fire farm yet without those tankers and brutes holding the aggro I'm on the floor. Yes, I can clear a bit fast yet that's only because I'm working within the support role and at end game high speed content A LOT out paces me before I can even setup. It feels like it's looking more so at metrics instead of gameplay. Since there are MANY sets that have 1 or 2 skippable skills. That's the only way how you can fit in movement and leadership. Nobody takes Spores Burst because Electric has the best sleep and that's getting buffed. There was a point where I skipped Spirit Tree since I didn't need it as I was running Plant/Time. Yet in Plant/Nature I can drop a strong healing area right on an AV to keep all the melee alive. Pretty much no matter the changes Spores, Stranger, Spirit Tree and or Fly Trap are getting skipped in some way since building up the secondary and picking up other things make sense. Like look at Force Field you can skip 5-6 parts of the set and you still have the Force Field experience.

So to me leave Plants as it was because you're buffing and introducing more. Hell, Grav is pretty much 4 skills and one is the pet. Most people skip Smoke on Fire, Nobody uses Salt on Earth, Illusion people skip Wounds, Group Invisibility and GI is the WORSE left standing skill on the set. I still don't want to play Mind because of TK changes don't really work with how I play and even then BOTH sleeps were skippible, With Dark you drop Possess the moment you get the Haunts and Heart of Darkness can be skipped depending on if you're be combat TP'ing. Elec the only thing that should be skipped was Jolting Chain. With Arsenal you can drop the Tranq if you're often playing end game since the AOE does the heavy lifting especially if you don't want to break stealth. Symphony I've seen people skip the pet yet to me the Lullaby is skippable since so much can already -dmg better out of the secondaries, Rad, Dark, Nature and Marine are right there. 

So, Plant is basically from my own gameplay the "Force Field" of the Controller primaries. You don't need the whole thing to get what you want out of it. 

[ApolloInferno]

21 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

So far the general consensus is based on knee-jerk reactions and not as many people reporting their experiences from actual testing in beta. There is a lot of doom and gloom flying around and not a lot of actual feedback based on testing.

Even though this might be true in some cases. There has been plenty of people like myself who have gone to the Beta server and tested this. I could provide parses if you need but in short the proc rate on the Carrion Creeper (although a bug) was basically fixing the powers damage. Even though this is a bug in the game; the power without the bug is just meh.

Add on the fact that it spawns more Creepers the more you kill enemies. The power just can't fuction the same way with these changes. I have my doubts fixing the spawn bug will fix the issue. Without the proc bug, the base damage on Creepers was balanced for Controller damage. Which is unacceptably low. 

Please Plant users thumbs up if you agree: If your going to nerf the Carrion Creepers proc rate then a buff to the power needs to be added to compensate it. Otherwise expect people will not use the power or will drop the set alltogether.

Edited Wednesday at 06:13 PM by ApolloInferno

[Jaxman100]

1 hour ago, Player-1 said:

 

 

While I was not the lead on this project, the goal is to make sure the entire powerset is useful and not concentrated onto select overtuned powers. This allows for more build flexibility among a variety of players who have different concepts for their Plant Control characters without shoehorning them into just two powers played a certain way. 

 

Seeds of Confusion had to be brought down a notch or two for the type of power it is. A lower tier cone power should not be outshining high tier AoE confuses in other control powersets. This nerf, while it stings, will allow for rebalanced encounters to work with multiple control powersets instead of having to always factor in this specific power.

 

Carrion Creepers were bugged where multiple powers activating within the patch overlapped and caused multiple procs to apply with every activation. This ballooned its strength up in a way that was not balanced due to a bug, and needed to be fixed. We are looking into ways to shore it up given the change, but from a base power perspective it is working as intended now (spawn bug aside). The other changes to Plant Control are intended to still let the powerset be strong as a kit, not just from two specific abilities.

 

In general I think most could agree that Seeds of Confusion was an incredibly strong lower tier power.  Controller game play for me is mostly about having a level of control to consistently cast other than an AoE immobilize. The knee jerk reaction for myself tends to be, I will NEED to TAKE and USE MORE powers from my Primary going forward to achieve a similar result that I have currently. But we aren't gaining new powers or slots, so I have to lose other powers. Controller game play for me is mostly about having a level of control to consistently cast other than an AoE immobilize.

 

There are power sets in the game that shine as a whole where taking all or most of the powers is advantageous. And also some of their counter part sets that provide that useful ness with fewer powers. That's really where the build flexibility comes in to play for me. What power pools do I take or do I take more primary powers? I haven't had time to transfer alts to test or do respecs, but it sure feels like there will be less flexibility in choosing powers to drop going forward.

It's incredibly challenging to balance a power around +0/x4 early game play and +4/x8 end game content. Just lowering the target cap and possibly confuse duration tweaks would be enough along with the buffs to other powers. Or swap the power order of Seeds and Carrion Creepers if the recharge of Seeds needs to increase, putting it more in line with other later tier powers.

[ExeErdna]

23 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

 

I haven't tested yet, but I was thinking the same thing.  It's a *Spirit* Tree, it shouldn't really interact with anything nor take damage.  The fact that it can't take damage I'd guess is why the og devs decided to call it a "spirit" tree in the first place.  Adding a taunt to other pets, like the vines or creepers and that weird venus flytrap thing, might be a better move from a conceptual perspective.  I'd give those other summons a small AoE punchvoke on each of their attacks, a chance to pull the target and one or two folks nearby onto them.

 

Mechanically it might not mater, but having people punching your spirit tree is a little weird.

 

 

I was surprised it was so weak since I get the concept is like the things the DE's summon that almost make them near unkillable depending on the group density and player level. If place it down, then within two hits its gone and you can unironically pull a bit too much by throwing it down attempting to set up. When it was simply safer to Seed and Creep the same group. THEN place the tree for it's regen 

[Riverdusk]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

People undervalue AoE confuse so much it’s crazy. Saying Seeds is underperforming Flashfire or Stalagmites now is ridiculous. Only one of those mez types has been proven over and over again to accelerate XP and reward gains, and it ain’t stun. And I don’t believe that any of you don’t know that.

 

I was talking about it as an opening control power.  It is obviously underpowered for control compared to Flashfire or Stalagmites now.  Same recharge, duration almost the same (its a cone so that alone gives it a bonus duration under basic formulas I believe), and now a MUCH lower target cap (10 to 16).  Flashfire and Stalagmites are also easier to use being that they are targeted AoE instead of a cone and have a better range.  

 

I also don't see it really adding much to xp gain rates.  Most of the time confused mobs miss each other.  Only time that becomes somewhat effective is if you have a -defense debuff and also don't use any tohit debuffs or any other controls on the mob. 

[Championess]

This vehement pushback from biased Plant control players comes off disingenuous.  Everyone knows Plant was the trainingwheels easy to play set in control.  It's funny to see players so dependent on the two most abusive powers in control try to defend that they aren't so abusive as if thats not the whole reason they play the set.  It shouldnt be that way, you should have to make some use of the other 7 powers in that control or the other 22 powers you have to pick from.

 

Lots of things can boil down subjectively.  How good Seeds of Confusion was got confuse behavior ruined in tougher content for other sets thats just an objective result of one power being so much better than the rest in its category.

 

Lets not pretend Plant wasnt an S++ tier control set solely because of 2 powers.  I cant see it dropping less than A+ with the extra buffs and some behind the scenes compromises I'm sure is in the works.  

[ExeErdna]

4 minutes ago, ApolloInferno said:

Even though this might be true in some cases. There has been plenty of people like myself who have gone to the Beta server and tested this. I could provide parses if you need but in short the proc rate on the Carrion Creeper (although a bug) was basically fixing the powers damage. Even though this is a bug in the game; the power without the bug is just meh.

Add on the fact that it spawns more Creepers the more you kill enemies. The power just can't fuction the same way with these changes. I have my doubts fixing the spawn bug will fix the issue. Without the proc bug, the base damage on Creepers was balanced for Controller damage. Which is unacceptably low. 

Please Plant users thumbs up if you agree: If your going to nerf the Carrion Creepers proc rate then a buff to the power needs to be added to compensate it. Otherwise expect people will not use the power or will drop the set alltogether.

 

As somebody that played ALL the controller sets Plant is legit 2nd WORSE with Ice being THE WORSE one. Plant will not work right with these nerfs I've PLAYED both versions of the same character. My Plant/Nature cannot hang like it used to. Plant's whole gimmick is the Seeds and Creepers, like how Fire control is unironically HOT FEET and BONFIRE. Bonfire been nerfed and what people do? Still slot knockback to knockdown because damn throwing a group into another room. Why they mad people using the set like how the set is supposed to be used?

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

I was talking about it as an opening control power.  It is obviously underpowered for control compared to Flashfire or Stalagmites now.  Same recharge, duration almost the same (its a cone so that alone gives it a bonus duration under basic formulas I believe), and now a MUCH lower target cap (10 to 16).  Flashfire and Stalagmites are also easier to use being that they are targeted AoE instead of a cone and have a better range.  

 

I also don't see it really adding much to xp gain rates.  Most of the time confused mobs miss each other.  Only time that becomes somewhat effective is if you have a -defense debuff and also don't use any tohit debuffs or any other controls on the mob. 

Not to mention the inherent balance that it always had by being a ranged cone instead of a taoe meaning you have to back out to use it and can't also use it in melee. Take what you will how big of a balance this is, but it IS there.

 

On top of the aoe holds, they really should be capping at 120s too, they're only a little better  than aoe stuns, so 120s makes more sense for the recharge cap on them versus 90s. Not only that, but most will still save them for holding big mobs, so outside of AV fights will still primarily almost always be at that maximum recharge based on enemies.

 

Regarding tree again, I think the best end result would be 60s recharge, 250% regen, non-stackable, remove the killable portion, and just give it the scaling (or non scaling) defense/resist, though scaling makes enough sense here as it gives it a bigger effect when cast where it's needed more.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Player-1 said:

While I was not the lead on this project, the goal is to make sure the entire powerset is useful and not concentrated onto select overtuned powers. This allows for more build flexibility among a variety of players who have different concepts for their Plant Control characters without shoehorning them into just two powers played a certain way. 

 

This makes sense however a counter point is that it can TAKE AWAY flexibility, forcing players to take additional or all the powers from the power set to remain effective and not being able take other powers (pools, secondary, and/or epics). 

 

I completely support making all powers viable. I do not support forcing existing characters to respec to stay playable. I prefer to avoid power creep. No one said this would be easy.

 

Many sets have more than one control and players can choose if they want to focus on something. In this way players do not HAVE to select all the powers in a set.

[ExeErdna]

1 minute ago, Championess said:

This vehement pushback from biased Plant control players comes off disingenuous.  Everyone knows Plant was the trainingwheels easy to play set in control.  It's funny to see players so dependent on the two most abusive powers in control try to defend that they aren't so abusive as if thats not the whole reason they play the set.  It shouldnt be that way, you should have to make some use of the other 7 powers in that control or the other 22 powers you have to pick from.

 

Lots of things can boil down subjectively.  How good Seeds of Confusion was got confuse behavior ruined in tougher content for other sets thats just an objective result of one power being so much better than the rest in its category.

 

Lets not pretend Plant wasnt an S++ tier control set solely because of 2 powers.  I cant see it dropping less than A+ with the extra buffs and some behind the scenes compromises I'm sure is in the works.  

 

That's you ignoring the plant players(me) are right and I've been saying PLANT is WEAK as is. It's single target is horrible, It's Vines is only good if you're using one of the 2 hold auras and cannonballing yourself into groups before your party does the same and nukes them from orbit. Everybody don't use their whole offensive set because we need slot. You can peep builds now that skip a lot for general res and safety. It is a C tier control set because it NEEDS the right secondary to carry it which are Dark, Marine, Rad, Traps, TA, Time, Kin, Cold, Nature with Nature being the WORSE ONE out of the good synergies. Since Nature is hungry for slots. You're legit making it seem like this gimmicky set really pisses on higher end builds like Fire, Arsenal, Grav, and Illusion!? With Illusion/Rad still being #1 when it pulls up, soloing 4+/8 like it's nothing. 

[Ratch_]

29 minutes ago, Championess said:

 

Well the whinging does eventually get some say about things.  I think there's a lot more Plant players on the active version than there is in closed beta.  

 

All you need do is look at what @Player-1 just said about Creepers getting some more attention now to get the idea that sure the procs are going to be less abusive but there may be a revision to get those summonable tauntbot pets back in order.  Though Seeds looks to be final which seems sufficient, that is unless you think its okay a t5 cone should be outperforming a t9 power in a set with no taunt pets to lean on.

I do not think a t5 cone should outperform a t9.

 

I also do not think a bog standard 90s repeatable control power should be sent to the shadow realm either.

 

Keep it at 16 cap. The recharge and scale nerf is fine 

Edited Wednesday at 07:23 PM by Ratch_

[LastHumanSoldier]

Imo, plant is S tier on live.

The current build on beta is not.

 

Lets wait for the revised creepers and see how it plays out yes?

[Vanden]

From my testing of Plant Control on beta:

 

1. Seeds of Confusion is still incredibly powerful. If it had launched with these numbers, I don't think the general opinion of the power would be much different than it is today.

 

2. The spawn rate and damage from Carrion Creepers feels too low. Rather than the flat 50% chance to spawn a vine, I think it should have diminishing odds per target; something like 100% chance to spawn a vine on the first target, 90% on the second, 75% on the third, and then 50% for any subsequent targets. I think the Creeper Vines ought to live longer, too; right now they die after 15s, bump that up to maybe 25s or 30s. The "CARRION CREEPERS" float text it puts up also seems to serve no purpose, not really sure why it's there.

 

3. Spirit Tree is useful now, but it's not really durable enough to soak an alpha. I would increase its resists to maybe 40%.

 

4. Spore Burst has been majorly upgraded thanks to Deep Sleep. No further notes here!

Edited Wednesday at 08:56 PM by Vanden

[ScarySai]

They don't taunt, rooted mobs just tend to try and hit the nearest thing they can, which happens to be creeper vines a lot of the time.

[Championess]

Alright each vine can soak up aggro of max 16 targets thus detracting the aggro from you.  They are phantom army on steroids minus the actual technical taunt component but if they represent more of a threat than you (ie doing more damage) and/or rooted in place enemies will aggro to them which is kind of moot anyways with an aoe confuse you can constantly spam. 

 

The devs ARE trying to give other powers more use and actual taunt components but Plant players want to have their cake and eat it.

Edited Wednesday at 10:36 PM by Championess

[Wavicle]

I like this rework. The whole kit is now useful instead of just 2 powers. It's difficult to analyze in abstraction and isolation. So much changing at once, Deep Sleep, Controller changes, Spirit Tree now actually worth using, Vines patch etc. It's a lot to take in.

[Arcadio]

I haven't played Plant since live since seeds has been so unbelievably powerful that it makes building and gameplay a little one-dimensional for me. So I threw together a Plant/Martial dom with a relatively cheap build and blasted through a +4/x8 council mission without too much trouble.

 

Seeds is still very strong. I don't think people really think about how good confuse is. I put together an arsenal/pain controller during the open beta when people were saying that set was weak too, and it's one of the strongest soloists I have. Seeds not hitting the whole spawn just gives a reason to use other control tools. 

 

Spirit tree is useful when the seeds have worn off and/or there's just a couple enemies left, but I agree it could use more resistance. It just gets two hit by the average boss. Or if it's meant to only ever take a couple hits, a faster casting time would make it more useful as a panic diversion.

 

Creepers were doing not bad damage I feel, but maybe that was envenomed blades carrying. I still don't know how this power works. The spawn rate is quite low when there's only a couple enemies left. Maybe it could have a high chance to spawn the first few, and less chance for more after that?

[StarkWhite]

13 minutes ago, Arcadio said:

Creepers were doing not bad damage I feel, but maybe that was envenomed blades carrying. I still don't know how this power works. The spawn rate is quite low when there's only a couple enemies left. Maybe it could have a high chance to spawn the first few, and less chance for more after that?

 

I think I saw a dev say that Creepers currently has a bug related to spawning and will be addressed in the next patch, but now I can't find it/don't remember if it was here or Discord.

[LastHumanSoldier]

49 minutes ago, StarkWhite said:

 

I think I saw a dev say that Creepers currently has a bug related to spawning and will be addressed in the next patch, but now I can't find it/don't remember if it was here or Discord.

Player 1 comments in this thread.

 

[Videra]

It's almost certainly been nagged to death at this point, and not just here, but it's worth pointing out - once again - that CC has no actual role in the endgame. The concept of nerfing the marquee power (or powers) of a control set, like Creepers and Seeds, should be a non-starter. It's especially nonsensical from a logical perspective to randomly stab Seeds in particular in the kidney, given it cannot be meaningfully used in any content that is actually relevant to balance.

[Uun]

The dominator version of Seeds is bugged. It still has the 60s recharge on live. Presumably it should be the same 90s as the controller version.

[ScarySai]

3 minutes ago, Uun said:

The dominator version of Seeds is bugged. It still has the 60s recharge on live. Presumably it should be the same 90s as the controller version.

 

Did you mean on beta?

 

Do yourselves a favor and just revert the change in general instead of bothering to fix this.

[ExeErdna]

3 hours ago, Championess said:

Alright each vine can soak up aggro of max 16 targets thus detracting the aggro from you.  They are phantom army on steroids minus the actual technical taunt component but if they represent more of a threat than you (ie doing more damage) and/or rooted in place enemies will aggro to them which is kind of moot anyways with an aoe confuse you can constantly spam. 

 

The devs ARE trying to give other powers more use and actual taunt components but Plant players want to have their cake and eat it.

You are ignoring what plant users are saying acting like this nerf means I'm gonna use Spore Burst when I'm NOT. The issue is I stated some skills MUST be skipped so you can build into other things. Many other controller sets skip things they do not need. Why are you so hellbent on nerfing the set? Seeds is Plant's Fearsome Stare. Carrion is the ONLY thing super unique about it and You're like "People should use something else" Like do THAT many people skip that t8? Or are that many people ass mad Mind got power crept. Mind is still Grav but worse yet you're looking at Plant... It REALLY feels like you don't play or like the set and just trying to sabotage it. I'm telling you Plant is WEAK except under niche circumstances because it just loves combat when you DON'T MOVE. How is most gameplay especially in most groups? Super Fast, you get a 2 or so Blasters and Brutes and you know how the pace will end up. Is Plant out pacing them, no? Oh Plant has a niche in 4 Star content that's 50+ that's basically like saying "Nerf Barrier Core because it's required to clear some of the content"  If you wanna punish a set on its Offensive abilities then upcoming, Pyro, Grav and Symphony are blast sets yet are you gonna say "those players want to have their cake and eat it" more like players don't want something they've invested time into ruined because bad actors like yourself hate the set for some reason.