Should thugs stay thugs?

[Monos King]

On the lore discord, as well as in game, there are two controversial topics that launch into devoted discussion every time it's brought up.

 

1. Multiverses
2. Scale of Power Increases

Multiverses (and similarly time travel) have their own issue amongst the story focused player base due to the convolution and complexity they tend to involve. Scale of Power increases refers to when the story's characters become so much more powerful and the scope so much larger over time, that whatever came before it becomes obsolete and incapable of being relevant in the future.

In comics, multiversal stories signal more than unique variations of familiar heroes and villains -- almost inevitably, they will demand a multiversal threat. As such, one tends to lead to the other. But rather than address cosmic hierarchies, this topic will address this concern in a specific context.

 

Should thugs remain thugs?

 

Or in other words, how significant do we want the entry-level, low-end enemies to be? Should the likes of hellions and skulls stay basic, grunt class workers for more powerful groups? This is interesting, and I wanted to hear other takes on this because while the question is one that lightly overlaps with some existing Game Balance conversations, the storyline perspective is one that is heavily underdiscussed on the forums.

 

This isn't to just ask if low level groups should ever be revamped or empowered or given higher level variants. For one, Longbow and Arachnos are groups we see grow in power with the player as they level, along with various other groups.

 

This is more about the groups that have been established as low in the pecking order, both from design happenstance and from the narrative itself. The ones that stop at 20 tops, and are never heard from again. Do you want to see groups like the Hellions, Skulls, Contaminated; the true dregs of the power placement, see advancement in later story? Do you want to see stronger versions or permanent upgrades of previously unimpressive enemies? Or do you believe that there simply should be reliably weaker groups, who don't contribute to the larger stories at all?

 

Making my own opinion known, I am heavily in favor of grunts becoming more powerful in later game content if it makes narrative sense. These days I experience the game through the lore first and foremost. This has been done very well with the Snakes, as well as with the Psychic Clockwork. I'm fond of what HC has done with Goldbrickers as well. I have also been open to a story development that allows higher level thugs, though I believe level 50 should be permanently off limits for them. 

 

But I also see notions that there should always be a mook tier that stays mook tier simply because it establishes levels in the story, preserves the hierarchy, or prevents contradictions later. I've even seen the notion that it's simply "lame" to have to fight enemies who you squashed easily early in your career, and that it disrupts the immersion of your own growth as a character.

I'd love to hear the other forum goer's stance on this.

 

[Mopery]

In before [Gang War]...

[Psyonico]

I mean, Council and CoT have a range of level 5 to level 54, so it's not like there's not precedent for having a group be both low and high level.

 

My only disappointment with Skulls getting bulked up in Kallisti Wharf is that they already have their moment to shine in the Shauna Stockwell and Eagle Eye arcs.

 

Hellions? they get a blip in Matthew Habashy and then? Nothing!  *they* should have been the ones to get bumped in the Page 2 content.

[Monos King]

2 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

I mean, Council and CoT have a range of level 5 to level 54, so it's not like there's not precedent for having a group be both low and high level.

Right, they would be another group like Arachnos and Longbow that scale with the players power progression. Though those are slow, and consistent through the level process, and things like Snakes (and soon Skulls) are a huge sudden jump.

 

3 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

My only disappointment with Skulls getting bulked up in Kallisti Wharf is that they already have their moment to shine in the Shauna Stockwell and Eagle Eye arcs

My big concern there is that said Shauna and Eagle Eye arcs will be forgotten, as those were already building up for large developments in the Skull world.

[LegionAlpha]

Good to see so many want to see the mutant gang population get some love. In fact mutants getting any love besides 10 levels is a good thing without the risk of being in  "X-Men" story.  And with the state of X-titles are these days I would not want the Outcasts going down that road either.

Sorry for my mini rant. But yes, more Outcast exposure. 

[Glacier Peak]

Outcasts! Let's see Frostfire lead a band of merry men called the "Incasts" 

[Snarky]

PUGS!

[srmalloy]

4 hours ago, Monos King said:

This isn't to just ask if low level groups should ever be revamped or empowered or given higher level variants. For one, Longbow and Arachnos are groups we see grow in power with the player as they level, along with various other groups.

This brings up an idea that I haven't seen suggested before as an expansion to Mastermind primaries -- evolving pets. Using the Outcasts as an example, you'd get the minion-tier Outcasts as your tier-1 pets, the lieutenant-tier Block/Brick/Shocker/Freezer as your tier-2 pets, and the boss-tier Lead Brick/etc. as your tier-3 pets. Then, further on in level, you'd lose the minion-tier Outcasts, and the lieutenant-tier Outcasts would push down and become your tier-1 pets, the boss-tier Outcasts would push down and become your tier-2 pets, and you'd get a new tier-3 pet who was an EB-tier Outcast (i.e., Frostfire) before being compressed into the Mastermind pet tiers. It would be a lot more complicated to configure, but it would give a feeling of progression rather than being static once you get your second pet upgrade power. I don't know if it's even viable to do with the current state of the code; I suspect that trying to make it work might be like sticking a fork in the spaghetti code, spinning it around a few times, then tossing it in the air to fall where it may.

[MTeague]

re-reading the first, post, if I understand you correctly, this is actually not about the Mastermind primary in any way whatsoever. 

You're looking for low level enemy types to become a "surprise! we're baaaaaack!" threat later on.

I think you're going to get what you want with Kahlisti Wharf skulls.

[Azari]

Hellions, who traded their humanity for stronger demonic powers, and become demons themselves.  

[Monos King]

3 hours ago, MTeague said:

re-reading the first, post, if I understand you correctly, this is actually not about the Mastermind primary in any way whatsoever. 

You're looking for low level enemy types to become a "surprise! we're baaaaaack!" threat later on.

I think you're going to get what you want with Kahlisti Wharf skulls.

If it makes narrative sense, yes. The Wharf skulls I currently have a few issues with for reasons I highlighted in the focused feedback, but the idea can certainly work.

[Monos King]

4 hours ago, srmalloy said:

This brings up an idea that I haven't seen suggested before as an expansion to Mastermind primaries -- evolving pets. Using the Outcasts as an example, you'd get the minion-tier Outcasts as your tier-1 pets, the lieutenant-tier Block/Brick/Shocker/Freezer as your tier-2 pets, and the boss-tier Lead Brick/etc. as your tier-3 pets. Then, further on in level, you'd lose the minion-tier Outcasts, and the lieutenant-tier Outcasts would push down and become your tier-1 pets, the boss-tier Outcasts would push down and become your tier-2 pets, and you'd get a new tier-3 pet who was an EB-tier Outcast (i.e., Frostfire) before being compressed into the Mastermind pet tiers. It would be a lot more complicated to configure, but it would give a feeling of progression rather than being static once you get your second pet upgrade power. I don't know if it's even viable to do with the current state of the code; I suspect that trying to make it work might be like sticking a fork in the spaghetti code, spinning it around a few times, then tossing it in the air to fall where it may.

I do like new mastermind ideas. The implementation probably wouldn't be all that complex in this case either.

[Dev Unitas]

Whoops! Accidentally voted. Disregard mine!

[Scarlet Shocker]

In a living, non-static environment, where power struggles are the main raison d'etre of the story lines, it would make sense for different groups' power levels to ebb and flow.

 

One morning you're strolling across Blyde Square and the Outcasts are bossing it, the next it's been overrun with Clockwork. Skulls run Kings Row until they don't because the Circle decide that this cannot stand.

 

The issue with that in a non-linear story is that it becomes confusing for the participants (ie players) - One week Group D is the bigger focus, and then next it's Group H. And of course, development time can be very slow in MMOs so as the time is stretched out we might lose track.

 

This is further complicated by the fact that during our own character journeys, from level one to 54 those powers and influences change. That is in part because we're able to face down tougher enemies, and also new content is introduced, but also because the story line has evolved over literally a couple of decades. But with a relatively static game, it becomes difficult (not impossible) and time consuming to portray the various inter-group rivalries of our enemies. If the Skulls rise to the top in one issue, surely the Council and Freaks might resent that and put the beatdown on them and then it's all different again.

 

That gets all a bit Game of Thrones, or Roman, with deals, assassinations, stuff happening more or less behind the scenes, which would be amazing for a novel but would we get the best of it in a player led "front loaded" experience where our primary role is to punch evildoers in the face, where politicking is less of the story than the action?

 

There's a compelling argument to say give all the enemy groups a day in the sun to rise and become a focus but every day has a sunset too. We could end up in a circle that sucks up development time and doesn't add too much to the overarching story line.

 

I don't object to this idea but to me, this is where a dedicated group of volunteer (non-Dev) writers could create stuff in the Mission Architect in a kind of "Para-Lore" series of missions and arcs that give those interested a chance to experience it... and might make the MA more relevant to today's game.

 

Also, why are the Trolls not included in the choice selections? Is the OP Trollist? 😉

[Sovera]

21 minutes ago, Dev Unitas said:

Whoops! Accidentally voted. Disregard mine!

 

Your vote is good here.

 

And for me none. Everything should have a bracket. Low level thugs should not be a threat in the higher levels simply because we evolved past them. What was a danger for a lowbie untrained hero is nothing after they get trained by the Avengers.

[bAss_ackwards]

Thugs should be reformed and reintegrated into society. 🦸‍♀️

[Torpor]

I'd go with Outcasts, I feel like a story centered on them can go a little further, maybe after Frostfire abandons them they can have a new, maybe even more powerful, leader take charge and whip them into shape. Or some other group like the Council or Arachnos gives them a drug to boost their powers and use them as fodder or something. A lot of places you could go.

 

I think the Hellions staying low level makes sense, because they're mostly idiots who sell their souls and probably get taken by whatever they sold themselves to before they can get too powerful.

As for the Skulls, they are smarter then the Hellions by way of not selling their souls at any given oppurtunity, but I think they'd need to change into a more orginized type of gang similar to the Family to make it to the higher levels.

The R.I.P. feels more like joke fodder, like where Arachnos sends recruits that don't make the cut, I'm fine with them not making it to higher levels.

[Billbailey96]

Personally I am okay with groups like the Skulls and Hellions staying behind. It gives levelling a sense of progression where you go through old zones like Atlas Park and maybe attack a few out of nostalgia's sake. Like "I remember when you were tough! But now I know what a real threat looks like." If you do rebuff groups like the Skulls or Hellions then they should be different showing that they did something drastic to actually be a threat to a lvl 50 PC. Because at that level it takes more than sledge hammers and pistols to be frightening. 

[BjorJlen]

Interesting post, I must say... 🙂

 

   Personally, I am with @Scarlet Shocker; where are the Trolls in the poll? Because if they were, that is the group I would vote for. However, this brings up a idea that is sort of akin to the OP's. Instead of any one particular low level group rising in power to become a new threat, how about this instead...

 

   Have the Trolls, Hellions, Rogue Island Police, Outcast, Skulls, and even the Family (where are they in the poll too? lol), all team up under one "leader" who bands them all together, in an attempt to not only take out the heroes who have always foiled their plans, but also all the other high level villain groups (like Arachnos) that just passed them by. 😁

 

   I have been a Comic fan since I was knee high to a grasshopper, and eventually in all of these Comic companies, they have had massive team-up's of Villain groups to take out the heroes. Yes, for the most part, these have been individual villains who have teamed up to take out a particular Hero (ala the Sinister six), or Super Group (like the Masters Of Evil), but in the CoH's world, where we tend to fight Villain groups more than individual Villains, this would be a very interesting addition. This could be an opportunity to introduce a new Villain, who takes it upon himself/herself to set things right. Heck, maybe this villain's "power" is the ability to boost the power of these beings under his "leadership".

 

   With those I have listed; 6 low level villain groups, it would be interesting for a 8 person hero team to head into the very first mission, and suddenly be confronted by high lvl Trolls, Hellions, and Outcasts, all being led in that mission by the Family. Heck, even have the real possibility of the Heroes losing that first encounter, so as to set the seriousness of the new story arc. And that the realization is, they could actually... WIN. Might be a interesting story arch overall; one of just pure revenge against everyone. Add in low level Villain groups on Red side (I really don't play Red side, so I don't know how many, if any, low level villain groups there are that aren't given high lvl treatment akin to the Outcasts), and who knows how good (or bad) this could be?

 

   Anyways, sorry if this idea seems a bit "out there", especially in CoH... I was just thinking outside the box as it were. Again, interesting idea OP... keep it up. 🙂

 

"Or maybe just have all the citizens who have been pushed around by these low level villains start kicking butt instead... that might be fun lol." - T

[lemming]

17 hours ago, Monos King said:

My big concern there is that said Shauna and Eagle Eye arcs will be forgotten, as those were already building up for large developments in the Skull world.

Just a guess, but I think that's part of the Skull revamp though not done in the way I would have, but looks like that storyline is being used as the springboard.  At least from my reading of some of the Skull stuff in Kallisti and having just done the low level arcs.

[Go0gleplex]

4 hours ago, bAss_ackwards said:

Thugs should be reformed and reintegrated into society. 🦸‍♀️

 

But...but...then they'd be...(shudder)...POLITICIANS!! we already got more than enough of those.  :P (ROFL)

[OverkillEngine]

Possibly, though it does help a LOT if some narrative in is play to show/tell for example why Hellions are now spawning at 40+.

Another consideration is that maybe the "unaltered" core group low level range Minions should spawn as Underlings to reflect that they are still weaker than the new empowered members. To continue using the Hellions as an example, this means any 40+ Blood Brother variants would spawn as Underlings in that range. Then you don't have to change their powers specifically to make them the same actual threat as a minion from a "natively" 40+ group.

And this downgrade pattern can of course be replicated with the LT and non-named Boss class Hellions. Then you just plug in the "new" bosses and EB's/AV's that of course fit the narrative.

[Scarlet Shocker]

4 hours ago, BjorJlen said:

Interesting post, I must say... 🙂

 

   Personally, I am with @Scarlet Shocker; where are the Trolls in the poll? Because if they were, that is the group I would vote for. However, this brings up a idea that is sort of akin to the OP's. Instead of any one particular low level group rising in power to become a new threat, how about this instead...

 

   Have the Trolls, Hellions, Rogue Island Police, Outcast, Skulls, and even the Family (where are they in the poll too? lol), all team up under one "leader" who bands them all together, in an attempt to not only take out the heroes who have always foiled their plans, but also all the other high level villain groups (like Arachnos) that just passed them by. 😁

 

   I have been a Comic fan since I was knee high to a grasshopper, and eventually in all of these Comic companies, they have had massive team-up's of Villain groups to take out the heroes. Yes, for the most part, these have been individual villains who have teamed up to take out a particular Hero (ala the Sinister six), or Super Group (like the Masters Of Evil), but in the CoH's world, where we tend to fight Villain groups more than individual Villains, this would be a very interesting addition. This could be an opportunity to introduce a new Villain, who takes it upon himself/herself to set things right. Heck, maybe this villain's "power" is the ability to boost the power of these beings under his "leadership".

 

   With those I have listed; 6 low level villain groups, it would be interesting for a 8 person hero team to head into the very first mission, and suddenly be confronted by high lvl Trolls, Hellions, and Outcasts, all being led in that mission by the Family. Heck, even have the real possibility of the Heroes losing that first encounter, so as to set the seriousness of the new story arc. And that the realization is, they could actually... WIN. Might be a interesting story arch overall; one of just pure revenge against everyone. Add in low level Villain groups on Red side (I really don't play Red side, so I don't know how many, if any, low level villain groups there are that aren't given high lvl treatment akin to the Outcasts), and who knows how good (or bad) this could be?

 

   Anyways, sorry if this idea seems a bit "out there", especially in CoH... I was just thinking outside the box as it were. Again, interesting idea OP... keep it up. 🙂

 

"Or maybe just have all the citizens who have been pushed around by these low level villains start kicking butt instead... that might be fun lol." - T

 

I've seen the movie already. Can you dig it? 🤣

 

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

Thinking a little more about this because I find the question interesting.

 

If we assume (which seems sensible to me) that as we join the game as a new PC, the enemy groups have reached their natural place in the pecking order of Paragon City and the Rogue Isles there is no reason for those relationships to change dramatically, except and unless some great change upsets that ecosystem.

 

That can be change wrought by the Players (via the Devs of course) - for example the impact that PCs have on the Outcasts and Trolls during the Hollows arc leaves space for other groups to fill those gaps. Then there's storied change -- imagine that the Trolls were able to make stable, intelligent SupaTrolls who could be utilised to take Skyway and then other city zones, forcing the Lost, Clockwork and other groups into retreat. Just a "for instance" but the relatively minor change has the potential to become a game wide change.

 

Our Devs have experimented with that a bit I believe but I'm less familiar with that content so I don't want to speak too much about it but they've introduced "semi-new" factions as well as brand new groups. That could have become a much bigger story arc in itself over several issues, let alone pages - but that then becomes very resource intensive so the economics might not stack up - especially for a relatively small volunteer team.

 

But let's take a silly hypothetical for a moment: The Council are struggling - they are effectively fighting a war on two fronts vs Paragon's heroes (us) and the Fifth Column. So their feeling the beat down. They need an ally - which might be considered difficult but choose the Trolls as relatively easy to manipulate, good footsoldiers, tough at lower level and once equipped with Council weapons much more lethal than previously encountered by players. That then gives a huge array of possibilities moving the story forward but the point there is that change must happen to maintain credibility.

 

You can of course develop it any other way you choose too; once the Fifth find themselves under pressure they also seek allies... who would they choose to align themselves with? etc etc

 

Possibilities are endless... but making it happen credibly takes a huge amount of effort

[Scarlet Shocker]

Also; who in their right mind would think RIP would have any future given their obvious and abject incompetence at level 1?