Open Lettur from Disgruntled Player regarding Plant Control

[skoryy]

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

removes options

 

Weren't options already removed if the set was reliant on just two powers?

[macskull]

4 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Weren't options already removed if the set was reliant on just two powers?

No? The set was already functional, if not particularly amazing, as a control set. Where it stood out was letting people clear through groups without having to roll yet another Blaster or Scrapper.

Edited Friday at 12:33 AM by macskull
wrong AT

[Excraft]

On 6/11/2025 at 4:43 PM, Oklahoman said:

If you've tried it, then you are providing informed feedback in the appropriate place and maybe have a better chance of being heard.

 

On 6/11/2025 at 4:54 PM, Captain Fabulous said:

Have you played any of the changes? Even bothered to read the EXTENSIVE dev notes?

 

I know most people mean well when they post this standard dismissive "did you try it?" response, but it's a pointless retort and over abused to dismiss/discount the feedback/opinion of someone else.  Simply put, one doesn't need to taste food that's prepared from ingredients they already know they don't like.  They can tell that just by reading ingredients.  If one reads Dev notes that discuss "reduced damage" and such, there isn't much need to test things out to know it's a nerf. 

 

With that said, I don't think all of these changes being put forth in this update are world ending.  There is quite a lot of good stuff in there.  There isn't much anyone can do.  HC will change what they feel is necessary as its their server and they can do whatever they like.  I'm not at all saying that's a bad thing.  

[Mezmera]

7 hours ago, macskull said:

No? The set was already functional, if not particularly amazing, as a control set. Where it stood out was letting people clear through groups without having to roll yet another Blaster or Scrapper.

 

An aoe confuse of 16 targets you can have recharge in 15s is a ridiculously broken power.  Moreso than the current state of nukes.  Between how fast Seeds recharged and procing Creepers soaking aggro, if there was any, Plant players would hardly ever see any fire come their way.  It's bad habit forming to rely on two ridiculously broken powers. 

 

Its not unlike how Mind Control was with Mass Confusion having a much faster recharge and the old TK before the IO system and even those powers weren't as broken as what Plant gets to put out in two powers.  Plant players can adapt just like Mind players had to, the good thing is that it took forever for the other MC powers to get massaged into form, Plant gets theirs from the jump.  This still looks like a S tier set to me.  

 

And hey who knows maybe now that they have confuses more in line with what they want we can see some reverting of the ridiculous amount of mag it takes to confuse things on those pesky 4stars.  (Maybe they can even throw in some 'targets dont take damage unless controlled' on top)

Edited Friday at 04:55 AM by Mezmera

[General Idiot]

Let's not mince words. Seeds of Confusion was always objectively overpowered. That it wasn't changed until now doesn't change that fact. It was overpowered the day it was first put in the game and it's arguably only gotten more so over the years with more and more sources of global recharge being available. It needed to be brought in line with other area effect controls, so the endgame enemies don't need to be balanced around its existence. The whole thing of control being useless at endgame? At least partly the fault of this one power being so, so much better than any other area control in the game. Balancing such that Seeds of Confusion isn't always an automatic win button renders all other control completely useless, and conversely balancing such that other control would be useful would leave every group completely trivialised by Seeds of Confusion. With it brought into line, they now have the option to design content where control will be more useful.

 

And Carrion Creepers was objectively broken. Not just overpowered, but straight up broken. Invention procs are set up to only go off so often on average, but the way Carrion Creepers was made with pseudopets spawning pseudopets spawning even more pseudopets allowed it to have up to triple the proc rates it should ever have been allowed to have. As an upside, the creeper vines now do containment damage where they didn't before. Maybe try slotting it for damage rather than just procs and see if that makes up some of the difference.

 

Also? No set should ever be reduced to one or two good powers while the rest are just filler. Any set that is, is an objectively badly designed set and needs to be reworked. No matter how long it's been left in its broken state.

[JayboH]

I assume the OP is avoiding discussing the Spore Burst changes on purpose?

[Oklahoman]

16 hours ago, Excraft said:

Simply put, one doesn't need to taste food that's prepared from ingredients they already know they don't like.  They can tell that just by reading ingredients.

 

I don't disagree. But this is Homecoming, and generally and historically speaking the devs have seemed to be more open to feedback from players who have tried what they have created and responded with facts, figures, and informed observations. You're gonna have to taste the food before you declare you don't like it. I wish it were different.

[Bionic_Flea]

17 hours ago, Excraft said:

Simply put, one doesn't need to taste food that's prepared from ingredients they already know they don't like.

 

While that makes common sense, it's not always true.  One can look at the ingredients for a Caesar salad and refuse to eat it because it has anchovies and they once tried anchovies on a pizza and hated it.  But then they actually try the salad and taste that the anchovies are used in a different way that adds flavor without overwhelming salty fishiness.  That's just one example.  I could come up with many more.

[lemming]

7 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

While that makes common sense, it's not always true.  One can look at the ingredients for a Caesar salad and refuse to eat it because it has anchovies and they once tried anchovies on a pizza and hated it.  But then they actually try the salad and taste that the anchovies are used in a different way that adds flavor without overwhelming salty fishiness.  That's just one example.  I could come up with many more.

Yep. And the patch notes get misinterpreted all the time.  Sometimes it's a note not written clearly, or someone zooms in on one aspect without considering the rest of the note.  And spinning up a test on Open Beta isn't hard at all, time spent is the biggest hurdle.

[Excraft]

25 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

While that makes common sense, it's not always true.  One can look at the ingredients for a Caesar salad and refuse to eat it because it has anchovies and they once tried anchovies on a pizza and hated it.  But then they actually try the salad and taste that the anchovies are used in a different way that adds flavor without overwhelming salty fishiness.  That's just one example.  I could come up with many more.

 

Or they've tried anchovies before and know they don't like to eat them regardless if they're in a salad or on a pizza.  I can't stand cilantro, doesn't matter what it's in or mixed with.  If something has cilantro, I won't eat it.  I can come up with many more examples too.  

 

1 hour ago, Oklahoman said:

I don't disagree. But this is Homecoming, and generally and historically speaking the devs have seemed to be more open to feedback from players who have tried what they have created and responded with facts, figures, and informed observations. You're gonna have to taste the food before you declare you don't like it. I wish it were different.

 

Spot on.  Couldn't agree more.  I wish it were different too, but it is what it is. 

[arcane]

Considering I don’t personally believe a Control set needs to be Fire Blast tier at AoE killing… if fixing the objectively overpowered Seeds and the broken Creeper proc rate is resulting in a clear time increase (not exactly the most important metric for a Control set but okay) but the set gains way more control and mitigation… I’m struggling to see a problem here.

[arcane]

18 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

 

I know most people mean well when they post this standard dismissive "did you try it?" response, but it's a pointless retort and over abused to dismiss/discount the feedback/opinion of someone else.  Simply put, one doesn't need to taste food that's prepared from ingredients they already know they don't like.  They can tell that just by reading ingredients.  If one reads Dev notes that discuss "reduced damage" and such, there isn't much need to test things out to know it's a nerf. 

 

With that said, I don't think all of these changes being put forth in this update are world ending.  There is quite a lot of good stuff in there.  There isn't much anyone can do.  HC will change what they feel is necessary as its their server and they can do whatever they like.  I'm not at all saying that's a bad thing.  

I don’t think anyone expects you to test to verify that a damage reduction exists. The damage reduction is the intended change and not the point. The point of testing is to determine if the changes are too impactful or not impactful enough on overall gameplay. It doesn’t sound like you’ve assessed the actual impact of the changes.

[Excraft]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

I don’t think anyone expects you to test to verify that a damage reduction exists. The damage reduction is the intended change and not the point. The point of testing is to determine if the changes are too impactful or not impactful enough on overall gameplay. It doesn’t sound like you’ve assessed the actual impact of the changes.

 

It sounds like you didn't read my post at all.  I understand what the changes are and what the point of them is.  I wasn't making a commentary on any individual changes or the patch in general beyond it's not the world ending update some are making it out to be.  My comment was regarding dismissive replies.  

[Bionic_Flea]

54 minutes ago, Excraft said:

If something has cilantro, I won't eat it.

 

Does it taste soapy to you?  https://www.britannica.com/story/why-does-cilantro-taste-like-soap-to-some-people

 

My point remains that just reading something is not the same as experiencing it.  You disagree.  *Shrug*

[Excraft]

18 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

My point remains that just reading something is not the same as experiencing it.  You disagree.  *Shrug*

 

Nothing wrong with disagreement.  I can read about a heart attack or being bitten by a great white shark.  I'd rather not actually experience either.  I can read about my salary being reduced by 10%.  I'd rather not experience that.  I've read in the local newspaper my property taxes are going up next year.  I already know I won't like it, I don't need to experience it. 

 

I don't necessarily disagree that changes on BETA should be tested in their totality to see how they work overall.  I merely suggested that dismissing an opinion outright over changes that are relatively straightforward in the patch notes without actually testing is dismissive, and many times used as a crutch to discount what can be valid criticism.  Some things really can be gleaned just by reading.  

 

Again, I don't agree with the OP that these changes are the end of the world.  As I've said, there is a lot of good stuff in this patch.  

[Captain Fabulous]

20 hours ago, Excraft said:

I know most people mean well when they post this standard dismissive "did you try it?" response, but it's a pointless retort and over abused to dismiss/discount the feedback/opinion of someone else.  Simply put, one doesn't need to taste food that's prepared from ingredients they already know they don't like.  They can tell that just by reading ingredients.  If one reads Dev notes that discuss "reduced damage" and such, there isn't much need to test things out to know it's a nerf. 

 

With that said, I don't think all of these changes being put forth in this update are world ending.  There is quite a lot of good stuff in there.  There isn't much anyone can do.  HC will change what they feel is necessary as its their server and they can do whatever they like.  I'm not at all saying that's a bad thing.  

Saying that someone should test changes before going on an unhinged rant based solely on patch notes is not being dismissive. It's just common sense. It's the whole reason why there are multiple closed and open betas, for people to test the changes to ensure they aren't too extreme. Ranting about changes without having played them is not helpful in any way.

 

I will even go so far as to say that posting an unhinged rant even after testing is also not particularly helpful.

[Excraft]

17 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Saying that someone should test changes before going on an unhinged rant based solely on patch notes is not being dismissive. It's just common sense. It's the whole reason why there are multiple closed and open betas, for people to test the changes to ensure they aren't too extreme. Ranting about changes without having played them is not helpful in any way.

 

I will even go so far as to say that posting an unhinged rant even after testing is also not particularly helpful.

 

Thank you for very eloquently proving my point.

[Seed22]

4 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

While that makes common sense, it's not always true.  One can look at the ingredients for a Caesar salad and refuse to eat it because it has anchovies and they once tried anchovies on a pizza and hated it.  But then they actually try the salad and taste that the anchovies are used in a different way that adds flavor without overwhelming salty fishiness.  That's just one example.  I could come up with many more.

No they wouldnt they hate anchovies. Why cant you people understand someone just doesn't like something and wont play it?  THEY. DONT. LIKE. ANCHOVIES. No matter how they're used, no matter where they are, they hate em.

 

The simple response if you disagree instead of being stubborn as hell is to *gasp* accept they dont like it, and stop trying to force them to try something they dont like.

 

I mean goddamn...

 

Why is this hard to understand? 

 

*Not directed entirely at you Flea, just the overall mentality I see so often. Look, if you all disagree with the feedback thats fine, but please stop suggesting they try something they know for themselves they wont like. 

 

I dont like the plant changes. I acknowledge the set isnt complete trash and can clear +4×8 still. I still will be shelving my plant and never touching the set ever again. Trying to get me to play the set is suggesting I waste my time. Same with OP

Edited Friday at 07:17 PM by Seed22

[Bionic_Flea]

Have you ever tried a Caesar salad?  You should!

[Seed22]

2 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Have you ever tried a Caesar salad?  You should!

I have. They're terrible tbh.

 

And I love salads! But yeah those are shit.

Edited Friday at 07:19 PM by Seed22

[Bionic_Flea]

So you at least tried it.  😁

[Super Atom]

 

If they can make a good Spider-man movie they can handle balancing plant control ok

Edited Friday at 08:14 PM by Super Atom

[Captain Fabulous]

3 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

Thank you for very eloquently proving my point.

If you genuinely think unhinged rants about proposed power changes are useful in any way shape or form there really isn't much I can say that's going to change your mind.

[Digirium]

I wish HC would use a direct approach rather than any indirect one to deal with the damage proc issue.

 

To clarify this issue is where powers are loaded up with damage procs a direct approach may be as simple as allowing one damage proc per power only. The indirect approach taken in I28P2 has only touched some areas within the effects of this issue and seems like a journey that will never reach the desired end.

[ForeverLaxx]

10 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

If you genuinely think unhinged rants about proposed power changes are useful in any way shape or form there really isn't much I can say that's going to change your mind.

From my personal experience, it doesn't matter if we tested anything if our opinion is negative regarding the direction of the changes, no matter the form that opinion takes. You and people like you will swoop in, declare we "must not have tested anything" because the assumption is that if testing had been done, we'd see the error in our thinking and come to the obvious conclusion that we're delusional and join the side of the Good And Just and go full steam ahead on all changes while you all pat yourselves on the back for another job well done.

It's why I stopped testing things forever ago and just (mostly) passively observe what's getting broken and where so I can adjust my concept characters accordingly.

 

Just throwing this out there; I'm going back to being a passive observer, but I felt it prudent to point out that far more often than not, "negative feedback" just gets shouted down regardless of context and information provided -- this goes doubly so if said individual refuses to engage with Discord groups.