Wait... no Super Strength for Scrappers?

[Bill Z Bubba]

48 minutes ago, Gobbledygook said:

Do you think that the changes they've made, like not allowing Energy Melees T9 not critting for the full amount, could be used on KoB?

I know that was one of the concerns that most have mentioned.

 

No reason not to expect that at this point. They already did it for Seismic Smash as well.

[Gobbledygook]

I knew there was another one, just couldn't remember which set.

[Thrax]

I would like to play SS on a scrap.  Just cause I want a Foot Stomp that crits.  Stone Melee is close with the aoes.  Energy melee is close with the single target attacks.  The only thing missing is being able to do these without any effects from stone or energy. MA is close, but not the same as SS.  My main on live was ma/sr, but probably cause it was/is the closest to Spider-Man, although his bio was just "I know Kung-Fu" but Matrix was newish then.

[InvaderStych]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

They already did it for Seismic Smash as well.

 

See also Greater Psi Blade.*

 

 

 

* - I assume I am reading CoD correctly, though it gels with what I see in game on my scrappy.

[Marshal_General]

First of all, they could solve a lot of problems by just renaming Rage to Determination.

 

The other main problem to me is that outside of KOB and FS, the rest of the set feels like Mediocre Strength.

[Gobbledygook]

I just wanted to move this back to the front page.

[Stormwalker]

Being reminded of this thread, and looking back at arguments

 

To anyone who says Spider-Man doesn't have real super strength, I am going to point out that he once held up a damaged building.  A tall building.  By himself.  And that's straight from the comics, not any of the adaptations.  He often doesn't USE his super strength in a fight because a lot of his enemies can't take it.  When he throws down with people who can, though, he does.

 

And to anyone who says Spider-Man isn't a scrapper, I don't know what comics they've been reading.  I can't see him as anything else.

 

He's a Super Strength/Super Reflexes Scrapper with the Leaping, Fighting, Experimentation (maybe?  trying to work in his science aspects), and Web Shooter pools.  And probably Body Mastery.  Yes, he got to craft his own power pool, which is totally cheating, but that's what happens when your name is on the front of the book. 

 

And if you want another example of a Super Strength scrapper, I'll give you one.  Namely: Rogue (as she was in the '90's X-Men books, at least.  I don't know the current state of the X-books since I stopped reading them decades ago).  She's undeniably Super Strength, and being more a Lightning Bruiser than a Brick makes her a Scrapper rather than a Tanker.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Stormwalker

[smnolimits41]

hmmm... Spiderman.  I've tried to make a spidey character, but i continue to fail.  Super Strength/Super Reflexes scrapper sounds like fun.  I guess i could turn him into a Brute.  As for Rogue, i have a Kinetic defender, can't remember the name.

[smnolimits41]

I still prefer DC comic characters to the Marvel ones.  However, if i had a brain, the closest comic character, that i'm most alike is Peter Parker.

[Gobbledygook]

8 minutes ago, smnolimits41 said:

hmmm... Spiderman.  I've tried to make a spidey character, but i continue to fail.  Super Strength/Super Reflexes scrapper sounds like fun.  I guess i could turn him into a Brute.  As for Rogue, i have a Kinetic defender, can't remember the name.

I had a SS/SR Brute back on live. He was one of my favorites.

Even themed him after Scarlet Spider, he was Scarlet Recluse.

[Stormwalker]

23 minutes ago, smnolimits41 said:

I still prefer DC comic characters to the Marvel ones.  However, if i had a brain, the closest comic character, that i'm most alike is Peter Parker.

 

For a Super Strength Scrapper from DC, here's a perfect example:

 

The Metropolis Kid (later a.k.a. Superboy), from the Death and Return of Superman story.

 

He was substantially less invulnerable than Superman, at least originally (I know he got substantially retconned later, but I don't know that much about the retconned version; I'm talking about the original version of him that wasn't actually Kryptonian at all), to the point that sometimes he had to rely on cleverness rather than just tanking everything.  He was much more aggressive as a fighter than the Big S, too.  Definitely more in the Scrapper mold.

[BrandX]

Super Strength Scrapper from DC...

 

Caitlin Fairchild of Gen-13.

 

Yes.  Used to be Wildstorm Studios from Image Comics.

[Gobbledygook]

8 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

For a Super Strength Scrapper from DC, here's a perfect example:

 

The Metropolis Kid (later a.k.a. Superboy), from the Death and Return of Superman story.

 

He was substantially less invulnerable than Superman, at least originally (I know he got substantially retconned later, but I don't know that much about the retconned version; I'm talking about the original version of him that wasn't actually Kryptonian at all), to the point that sometimes he had to rely on cleverness rather than just tanking everything.  He was much more aggressive as a fighter than the Big S, too.  Definitely more in the Scrapper mold.

Kon-El is my favorite DC character. He has always been half kryptonian.

Whenever I get inspired to make him in game, I either play him as a SS brute, Em brute, the pom poms being a visual effect of his tactile telekinesis, fury being his anger issue, (frequently got upset when someone called him Superboy when he first came out), or as a human only PB.

[Thrax]

Spidey would be a brute. More he gets hit the more damage. Aka he holding back until he doesn’t need to. And he for sure has to have a group taunt. He would rather enemies attack himself than others. He has super strength but not like this games. Street justice is pretty close but need web nade. 

[Stormwalker]

On 7/7/2022 at 10:30 AM, Gobbledygook said:

Kon-El is my favorite DC character. He has always been half kryptonian.

Whenever I get inspired to make him in game, I either play him as a SS brute, Em brute, the pom poms being a visual effect of his tactile telekinesis, fury being his anger issue, (frequently got upset when someone called him Superboy when he first came out), or as a human only PB.

 

He's one of my favorite characters, too.  I have in my comics collection the Superboy issue in which they originally gave his origin as a clone of a human infused with powers derived from an aura they observed on Superman's body (hence the tactile telekinesis, rather than the traiditional Kryptonian powers, which he didn't develop until after they retconned his origin later).  Him being half-Kryptonian was a retcon they did later.

 

That said, I still say he's a scrapper.  Especially early on, he was a lot less invulnerable than Superman (especially to energy damage types), but he was a quicker, more agile fighter and more aggressive, which fits the scrapper mold.

 

On 7/11/2022 at 2:30 AM, Thrax said:

Spidey would be a brute. More he gets hit the more damage. Aka he holding back until he doesn’t need to. And he for sure has to have a group taunt. He would rather enemies attack himself than others. He has super strength but not like this games. Street justice is pretty close but need web nade. 

 

Spider-Man is pretty much the definitive scrapper.  He's the very first character that comes to mind when I think of the Scrapper AT.  (Second is Wolverine, of course).

 

Venom is a Brute, and the differences in their combat styles stand out.

 

EDIT: Just to expound on this a little bit, one of the differences between a Scrapper and a Brute is that a Scrapper uses skill and technique more, where a Brute leans more on his raw power.  Spider-Man is a much more skilled fighter than Venom, who tends to use brute force (no pun intended, but it comes back to where the idea of the "Brute" originates) instead.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Stormwalker
grammar fix

[Norl]

On 7/5/2019 at 10:28 PM, Redlynne said:

 

Scrappers are ... too strong ... for Super Strength.

 

For a more "thematic" and comic book-y answer, Super Strength pretty much always shows up on the Brick Types ... not on the La Machine whirling dervish of death and destruction types, even even the "finesse" fighter types who win through "skill" rather than just raw (overwhelming) power.

 

Jumping in for a comment on this ancient comment, to bring forth a far more ancient observation.  Thematically, tanks are the tough guys.  In practice, they are crypto controllers.

 

They are not really tough guys.  Guys who are touch and super strong like Superman cannot exist in games like this.  They would functionally be tank mages -- super tough, and super high DPS.

 

Numbers-wise, there's no reason a scrapper couldn't take super strength, just like all the other offensive types are shared.

 

As far as the ultimate superhero model, though, I always felt it awful that tank types are pretenders to the throne of Superman.  A scrapper is, or a brute is, somewhat lesser perhaps.  In reality, nobody is.  But to thematically reserve it to Tanks puts the cart before the horse.

 

Sorry, tanks.  You aren't melee characters.  You are controllers.  Deal with it.

 

 

This gets into a larger discussion that the tank/heal/dps model is broken, or at least grotesquely boring after two decades and a hundred games.  Here's a suggestion:  For some new game, ban taunt.

 

You've got no taunt, you've got no fake damage.  You've got no fake damage, you've got no tank.  Then you can let the real controllers get on with life improving their craft, and let scrapper and brute type melee go nuts with damage.

 

 

"BUT I LOVE BEING A TANK!"  Thank you for that comment!  May I direct you to 746 other games out there that might pique your interest?

[Norl]

FYI, backrolling taunt into PnP D&D was a fatal mistake.  Taunt is useful in computer games because people are colossal idiots and cannot defeat all but the most rudimentary AIs.  In PnP, the DM would play all the monsters, and play them accordingly, often with what hopes are unique and clever strategies, to give the players a challenge.

 

To let some PnP fighter "taunt" such monsters, god almighty, how this universe has fallen.  The whole advantage of a human DM is you can have real AI (without the A!) guiding the opposition.  To backtrod onto it with computer game profound idiocy just beggars belief.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Norl

[Norl]

Suppose the Purple Man, or the Blight from Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep, took over a group of monsters.  They forced them to ignore taunts, then sent them against the healers and blasters first.

 

Whatcha gonna do?  Sit there and cry like a baby?  Or rise to the challenge?

[Gobbledygook]

Just a friendly reminder, Scrappers still don't have Super Strength.

[Murcielago]

On 12/4/2022 at 4:39 PM, Gobbledygook said:

Just a friendly reminder, Scrappers still don't have Super Strength.

[MunkiLord]

On 2/20/2020 at 12:09 AM, MunkiLord said:

And Stone Melee. We need Stone Melee too. Might as well also throw in some sort of Stone Mastery secondary for Blasters too.

Ok so I've been gone a minute and popped in just now to see what I missed. It seems like I missed something pretty big. Quick question, is this any good on Scrappers?

 

Also, when do we get Super Strength?

Edited February 4, 2023 by MunkiLord

[Captain Fabulous]

On 8/28/2019 at 10:46 PM, biostem said:

I want to see an "Inferior Strength" set, where enemies die from laughter at how ineffectual you are.  😉

So you want a play a Defender?

[Captain Fabulous]

55 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Ok so I've been gone a minute and popped in just now to see what I missed. It seems like I missed something pretty big. Quick question, is this any good on Scrappers?

 

Also, when do we get Super Strength?

Yes, yes it is. And never, probably. 🤷‍♂️

[Gobbledygook]

Dbl stacked rage

K.O. Blow 

Critical

I drooled

 

Still not "here"

Maybe one day...

Edited March 21, 2023 by Gobbledygook

[Lazarillo]

I just had a wild and crazy idea, an idea for a revised Super Strength for Scrappers:

 

Tier 1 - Punch

Tier 2 - Haymaker

Jab is generally considered an easy skip due to its extremely low damage.  Remove it from the early powers, but it'll be used a little higher up with a new function.  The previous t2 and t3 powers can be carried up one each, as they're both not far off from t1/t2 powers in other sets anyway, so no real changes would need to be made.

 

Tier 3 - "Smash"

I was trying to think of a decent name, but a lot of the basic stuff's already taken.  This would be a melee cone attack with damage comparable to punch, just a little extra, early AoE.  For the animation, maybe something like the one for Power Crash or even Bitter Ice Blast (see Vanden's avatar for how cool those could look with SS), or Cross Punch if a snazzy new animation were demanded.

 

Tier 4 - Jab

Jab is moved up to a higher tier, keeping its quick animation and low damage, but upping its Recharge, somewhat, and making it a Follow-Up/Blinding Feint workalike, or alternatively a Rib Cracker workalike.  This would also override the existence of Rage in the set, replacing the power said to be rather problematic for Scrappers with a weaker equivalent that allows more damage/accuracy by working it into the attack chain.

 

Tier 5 - Hand Clap

Particularly with the added cone in t3, no changes need to be made here, I don't think.

 

Tier 6 - Confront

It's a Scrapper set, it gets a single target taunt.  Let's continue.

 

Tier 7 - KO Blow

KO Blow seems to be often said as the other power that's problematic as it would be potentially too damage on a Critical Hit.  My thought here is to remove all Critical "damage" from this one and instead make it sort of a gimmick-crit.  KO Blow, on a Crit now lives up to its name: it instantly defeats a minion or LT (something that an attack like Greater Fire Sword or Seismic Smash would do with a crit already), as well as a boss below 30% health or an EB below 20%.  This would be slightly more powerful, but in exchange, KO Blow crits would have no effect on Archvillains/Heroes/Giant Monsters/etc.

 

Tier 8 - Hurl

Tier 9 - Foot Stomp

Just like the first two tiers, the final two really need no changes, and could be proliferated to Scrappers as-is, I think.