Enemy Difficulty through the Ages

[Glacier Peak]

2004

 

2025

 

Discuss.

 

Note: The former is from the City of Heroes launch manual, the latter I stole from @Vanden

[Crysis]

Honestly, at least on HC, not wrong.

 

On Live, I had very few characters pre-Incarnate that could solo +4/x8 across every PVE critter in the game.  A few that could do most but had holes in their defensives (usually lack of status protection), and only 3-4 full IO’d out toons that could do +4/x8 against anything and everything.

 

Then came Incarnates, especially Destiny and Judgement powers.  Getting level shifts meant fewer critters conning purple as well.

 

Today, it’s the rare toon that -cannot- solo +4/x8 across the PVE spectrum by levels 45-50.  Even poorly built and/or non-optimized alts.  Challenge isn’t what the players of this game want I suspect.  Variety yes.  Challenge….no.  As is evidenced by entire wastelands of higher-challenge mobs, Hard mode anything and the Labyrinth of Fog is already all but abandoned.  

[ivanhedgehog]

You have the ability to set your own difficulty. You are using 20 years of improvements, knowledge  and advantages to get to the pinnacle of power and complaining that you find it too easy. Instead of taking responsibility for yourself and setting your power where you desire it, you whine about it and want to change every ones game to suit you. If the devs put a toggle that would reduce you by 10%, you wouldnt want or use it. If it doesnt hit everyone, it isnt good for you. This isnt to any one in particular, just the trend of "its too easy". It isnt just COH, but gamers in general. 

[Cobalt Arachne]

1 hour ago, Crysis said:

Hard mode anything and the Labyrinth of Fog is already all but abandoned.

This is quite incorrect... Not sure what server you're playing on, but I see the Labyrinth of Fog run all the time on Excelsior and I know Everlasting does runs based on channels I'm in.
Is Advanced Mode commonly seen as a choice for LFG pick-up content? ...No, but it wasn't ever designed to be.

Most the groups that run it often are in specific in-game channels, super groups, or Discord servers because it's the kind of content where you can improve a lot as a team playing together consistently; It is some of the only content in this entire game that caters to that purpose, which is why it's so important it exists somewhere.

 

It's not content for everybody (no single piece of content will ever be), but for many players it's important content to them and I'm frequently asked when the next Advanced Mode or Task Force is coming.

I do a LOT of lurking in many different City of Heroes community Discord servers, so I can maximize my feedback exposure.

There's plenty dedicated to playing the difficult content as their focus, you just have to make an effort to join those communities.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Crysis said:

Hard mode anything and the Labyrinth of Fog is already all but abandoned.

This is not true for Indomitable. We run the Lab (with Font of Malevolence) every single Monday each week. And we do Hardmode events on Sunday. 

[Glacier Peak]

20 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

It's not content for everybody (no single piece of content will ever be), but for many players it's important content to them and I'm frequently asked when the next Advanced Mode or Task Force is coming.

What might be lost to others, but is significant on Indomitable, is when a team earns the Vanguard MDC or (soon!) earns Excalibonk, it FEELS GOOD. It's hard to get a dedicated team together, but that's easily fixed with pre-scheduling/sign ups. When something is difficult and it's overcome through teamwork, the experience becomes binding and players are that much more motivated to play with each other.

[FupDup]

Regarding the Labyrinth, it's really not that hard at all in a league. The final ballroom is almost like a stationary KM-ITF. And of course it's run daily on multiple different servers. 

 

That aside, there is most definitely truth to the accusation that the playerbase mostly focuses on easier content. I see this as a feature more than a flaw most of the time. 

[lemming]

This week, I've done about five Lab runs and missed a few, plus several starred runs.  And today saw at least three starred runs of various things.

[Ukase]

9 hours ago, Crysis said:

the Labyrinth of Fog is already all but abandoned.  

Not a dev, and I have the joy and ..I'll even call it a privilege to join @Laucianna on her daily labyrinth runs. While it is true it's not run as often as something like ITF, it is run daily, sometimes twice a day, or more. 

[Seed22]

HM to me has potential. I like the idea but think it needs a good deal of tuning to allow more playstyles, notably CC, to be relevant. I also think it needs a lot more mechanical variety, but thats due to playing difficult games and watching turtle WoW and retail WoW raid videos/Mythic+ runs and wanting something similar. Thats a bit unfair of me though and I'm more than willing to work within the confines of what HM is. 

 

That all said, it IS pretty much the only content I'm interested in leading again when I get this new upgraded gaming PC before taking my sabbatical to turtle WoW, so I think it definitely did something right.

[JKCarrier]

10 hours ago, Crysis said:

Today, it’s the rare toon that -cannot- solo +4/x8 across the PVE spectrum by levels 45-50.  Even poorly built and/or non-optimized alts. 

 

Gosh, I feel special. 😁 I don't think any of my toons can do that. Maybe the one Incarnate, but I wouldn't bet money on it.
I generally run at -1/x1, and still struggle with the occasional Elite Boss, or if I accidentally aggro too many groups at once.
You couldn't pay me to run Labyrinth of Fog.

[Glacier Peak]

16 minutes ago, JKCarrier said:

You couldn't pay me to run Labyrinth of Fog.

It's really a wonderful experience when it's led by an experienced group like the one we do on Mondays on Indomitable or with the current Font High Score record holders over on Excelsior. Best rewards in the game for a little over an hour of a player's time. 

[JKCarrier]

8 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

It's really a wonderful experience when it's led by an experienced group like the one we do on Mondays on Indomitable or with the current Font High Score record holders over on Excelsior

 

Trust me, you don't want me on your team, especially if you're trying to break a record. Unless that record is "Most deaths in a single mission". 😋
I still have PTSD from that time I tried to run the Apex TF back on live. 😱

[skoryy]

11 hours ago, Crysis said:

Today, it’s the rare toon that -cannot- solo +4/x8 across the PVE spectrum by levels 45-50.

 

It... depends? If you wait on your Judgement cooldowns and probably if you're using Pyro/Ion/Vorpal instead of the PBAoEs, I could see it.

[Laucianna]

I know personally I run a Labyrinth and a 4 star TF daily, and I know of a ton more 4 stars run daily to the point someone I knew ran 7 in one day. It's optional stuff that still really isn't too hard, and gives people more stuff to do in game, that is still highly popular with a lot of the community 💛

[MoonSheep]

it’s an unpopular opinion but i feel it’s true: IOs broke the game

[Neiska]

Plenty of people do the hardmode things. At least on Everlasting. I see calls for them everyday I'm on.

 

As far as difficulty itself? I think the claims of "anyone/everyone can solo +4/8 hardmode" are a bit strawman. No, not everyone can. And some if they can, take so long to do it that there's no point. Which makes me wonder if the disagreement is more about how long different people think a mission should take. Unless I am farming, I have little interest in a single mission taking longer than 10-20 minutes.

 

Also, context matters here. If we are saying the game is too easy with a team vs solo. And the other side of the coin is that people might have also simply gotten better. The game has been out for a bit now, and what took people a bit to figure out is now pretty common knowledge. I mean, one of the best teams you can have is 1 tanker and 7 corruptors now. And with the right secondaries, that pretty much gives you everything you need - buffs, debuffs, healing, debuff protection, etc etc etc.

 

Personally, I think the "glass cannons" aren't "glass" at all. The difference between DPS among the ATs can vary pretty widely, but not so much their survivability. Everyone has the same DEF softcap, a bit of difference between resistance caps, but the biggest difference is in max hitpoints. Which if you are running with buffs and healers, the max hitpoints aren't as important. I also think that the high dps people perhaps do too much dps, compared to everyone else. A tanker gives up a good bit of DPS to be as tough as they are (when compared to Scrappers/Stalkers, melee dps.) But dps don't have to give up much to do their damage. 15% resistance softcap and a bit of hitpoints.

 

If Glass Cannons were suddenly actually "glass" I think most people would suddenly find the game challenging again. But the problem with making them too squishy is suddenly DPS might have a harder time soloing. So the DEVS have to take that into account as well. Not that I actually expect them to make dps more squishy. I don't think we have seen much in the way of survivability tweaks and changes, most of them have all been DPS orientated. Some have been CC things as well, but I can't immediately recall any hard survivability tweaks to ATs speak of. Maybe powersets here and there? But not like, balancing adjustments which I would argue is needed. But I also doubt it would be popular.

[Snarky]

[ChzBoi]

[Skyhawke]

This is kinda tongue in cheek, but I think it does demonstrate how the thought process of "I can do it so everyone else can as well" tends to be had at the top of the tower and not the bottom. I don't think the average player is decked out in IO sets and min/maxed to the gills. 

 

 

Edited Monday at 12:32 PM by Skyhawke

[Go0gleplex]

I kinda see things the opposite of the initial post. If anything, the mobs have gotten a bit tougher by category...but then, I'm a casual player and not someone playing in a style that squeezes the last decimal point of efficiency out of my enhancement choices and such.  I'd say the relative difficulty is more due to play style and such than any real overall changes; especially for a solo player like myself.

 

In 2004 my tank could jump into a scrum of a dozen yellows and orange laughing as they barely moved my hp bar with only a few enhancement slots filled w/ Duals.....now it's about half that and a lot more hp loss despite being slotted with SO's. (shrug) My perceptions at any rate. 

[ivanhedgehog]

13 hours ago, Neiska said:

Plenty of people do the hardmode things. At least on Everlasting. I see calls for them everyday I'm on.

 

As far as difficulty itself? I think the claims of "anyone/everyone can solo +4/8 hardmode" are a bit strawman. No, not everyone can. And some if they can, take so long to do it that there's no point. Which makes me wonder if the disagreement is more about how long different people think a mission should take. Unless I am farming, I have little interest in a single mission taking longer than 10-20 minutes.

 

Also, context matters here. If we are saying the game is too easy with a team vs solo. And the other side of the coin is that people might have also simply gotten better. The game has been out for a bit now, and what took people a bit to figure out is now pretty common knowledge. I mean, one of the best teams you can have is 1 tanker and 7 corruptors now. And with the right secondaries, that pretty much gives you everything you need - buffs, debuffs, healing, debuff protection, etc etc etc.

 

Personally, I think the "glass cannons" aren't "glass" at all. The difference between DPS among the ATs can vary pretty widely, but not so much their survivability. Everyone has the same DEF softcap, a bit of difference between resistance caps, but the biggest difference is in max hitpoints. Which if you are running with buffs and healers, the max hitpoints aren't as important. I also think that the high dps people perhaps do too much dps, compared to everyone else. A tanker gives up a good bit of DPS to be as tough as they are (when compared to Scrappers/Stalkers, melee dps.) But dps don't have to give up much to do their damage. 15% resistance softcap and a bit of hitpoints.

 

If Glass Cannons were suddenly actually "glass" I think most people would suddenly find the game challenging again. But the problem with making them too squishy is suddenly DPS might have a harder time soloing. So the DEVS have to take that into account as well. Not that I actually expect them to make dps more squishy. I don't think we have seen much in the way of survivability tweaks and changes, most of them have all been DPS orientated. Some have been CC things as well, but I can't immediately recall any hard survivability tweaks to ATs speak of. Maybe powersets here and there? But not like, balancing adjustments which I would argue is needed. But I also doubt it would be popular.

The difference between the at's? Mez protection. A stun or hold tossed at a tank often isnt even noticed. against a blaster? major reduction in effectiveness or even death. Yes, optimal super IO builds can mitigate that, but normal builds not so much. Take away mez protection and a lot of at's wouldnt solo near as well.

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Take away mez protection and a lot of at's wouldnt solo near as well.

The access to mez protection from Inspirations are available to all ATs at all levels.

[ivanhedgehog]

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

The access to mez protection from Inspirations are available to all ATs at all levels.

then you wont mind if it is removed from all melee sets. since it works that well with inspirations.

[Glacier Peak]

9 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

then you wont mind if it is removed from all melee sets. since it works that well with inspirations.

Inspirations are there to use. If a player chooses to ignore them, that's on them.