Traps...

[Ultimo]

So, I was tinkering with another new character idea.  The origin of the idea came from an old, OLD ad I saw online for the Big Jim action figure.  If you're old enough, you might remember the Big Jim action figures (with other related characters, like Dr. Steel, Torpedo Fist and Bulletman).  It made me want to create an AE story that included characters based loosely on the old Big Jim characters.  Some were easy enough, but Big Jim himself is proving a bit tough.

 

My first thought was to make him a Mastermind.  Thugs (mainly so he can have pistols) would represent the "kids" that were part of the P.A.C.K. (kind of like Mouseketeers, Howdy Doody kids and the like... kind of a kids club devoted to their hero, Big Jim).  The secondary I chose was Traps.  I've tried to use this set in the past, and I keep coming back to it, because it's the only sort of gadgety set available to a Normal origin Mastermind.  The problem is, it STINKS.  Holy old crap, it stinks.

 

The powers take forever to set up, and because they're almost all immobile, they are of extremely limited use, especially on a fast moving team.  More, they take FOREVER to recharge, meaning that even if they WOULD be useful, they're liable to be unavailable because they're still recharging.

 

My point here is, this set is awful and really needs to be revamped.  I'm curious to know what others think of this set, and what might be done to fix it.  Not having used it extensively, I'll hold off on my ideas for fixing it for now, I'm more interested in what the community might suggest.

[Scarlet Shocker]

28 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

 Not having used it extensively...

 

I think there's your real problem.

 

Traps is very very powerful. Sure, it's slow, and on a fast moving team it's not going to do a huge amount but if you're on a team that's moving that fast, clearly it isn't that necessary and you can kick back and focus on your primaries - but you've still got your lovely FFG following you faithfully allowing your squad to get in their and biff stuff on the nose.

 

But when the proverbial excrement impacts a rapidly rotating impeller, you can hold everything solid and allow you and your team to hold a line, just by popping down some useful tools and letting henchmen and teammates do the damage

 

Not every set needs to be build to help you rush headlong into danger. If you ever play it solo or in micro-teams you'll find out just how useful it really is.

[Ghost]

Just because you don’t like a certain power, or have no idea how to play it, doesn’t make it “awful”

I’ve never tried the set, but I see lots of people playing and enjoying it.

If you’re not enjoying it, try something different.

[Maelwys]

Traps is fine, although the MM version still gets Detonator rather than the more useful Temporal Bomb. Really the only thing I'd poke at would be reducing the interruptible period of Trip Mine (or even eliminating it entirely like the Devices version!)

 

It's definitely slow moving, but it excels at point defense and crippling AV/GMs. 3+ Acid Mortars for -res plus a Poison Trap to floor their regeneration, and 2x Triage Beacons (with Panacea proc) and an FFG for sustain... Caltrops, Web Grenade and Tripmine toebombing is just gravy.

[MTeague]

I'm extremely happy with my Thugs/Traps character. 

 

As @Scarlet Shocker said, not every support set is all things to all people. Traps is not built for fast moving teams. Don't expect it to be. You are the team's "Oh Crap!" button, when there's a hard target, or when somoene accidentally aggros two extra spawns. That said, Thugs is plenty capable of just being a roaving band of destruction.  The Defense your thugs will accumulate from your Enforcers, plus your Forcefield Generator, plus, if you took it, Manuevers, makes them extremely durable, even on the move. And of course, there's Gangnam War, when you want that extra oomph, or just extra targets to help distract foes. Your Thugs will work even better, holed up and making good use of your Traps. Teams generally won't wait for that outside of AV's or other kick-it-up-a-notch scenarios. Don't expect them to. Save your Traps for emergencies. Soloing though, you are a holy terror. 

 

Traps does definitely benefit from Global Recharge.  Now, if I recall correctly from other threads, you (@Ultimo), typically do not use the AH, and do not use much in the way of IO's. (Correct me if I'm wrong on that point). This will be a character where you will feel that more than some others. Excessive +Recharge set bonuses are not required for /Traps to shine, but there's no denying it's particularly nice with a powerset with long recharge times. And this combo already has some powers just beggin' to be slotted with some Luck of the Gamblers.  But you can just slot some recharge SO's, if that's the limit of where you want to go. 

[KC4800]

Traps blends well with Fold Space. Just saying.

[cranebump]

But how will you emulate “pop the muscle band!” (Oh, yeah—crane knows Big Jim):-)

[tidge]

I find /Traps on MMs to be incredibly powerful. In most team content (fighting packs of critters on large maps), it can be less obviously useful (especially if the team is fast-moving) than sets which buff allies or directly target opponents. Solo it is awesome.

 

I suspect that the OP has allowed preconceptions to get in the way of seeing how Traps actually excels.

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

 

I think there's your real problem.

 

Traps is very very powerful. Sure, it's slow, and on a fast moving team it's not going to do a huge amount but if you're on a team that's moving that fast, clearly it isn't that necessary and you can kick back and focus on your primaries - but you've still got your lovely FFG following you faithfully allowing your squad to get in their and biff stuff on the nose.

 

But when the proverbial excrement impacts a rapidly rotating impeller, you can hold everything solid and allow you and your team to hold a line, just by popping down some useful tools and letting henchmen and teammates do the damage

 

Not every set needs to be build to help you rush headlong into danger. If you ever play it solo or in micro-teams you'll find out just how useful it really is.

This is what Dark Miasma is to me on a Corr.  Dropping Tar Patch, Fear Cone, Targeted AoE to-hit debuff, everything is dead.  What?   Team is moving on.  
 

But when stuff bogs down i can Nuke, step back and start the withering Cones attack chain (all with to-hit debuff) and/or hard hitting ST chain.  Add in some team heals and target regen debuffs and I am definitely useful.  

 

Even last night running my 39 Dark Dark Corr on a speed itf i was not a carry.  Even in that lightning fast task force i made use of my powers the couple times the team bogged down.  

[arcane]

6 hours ago, Ultimo said:

My point here is, this set is awful and really needs to be revamped. 

Please post screenshots of your build so that constructive feedback can be given.

[battlewraith]

I think this thread itself is a trap to get geriatrics to out themselves....by saying cursed words like Howdy Doody.

[EnigmaBlack]

Traps is fun especially solo. The premise of traps is that they should be done ahead of time. otherwise, I think they'd be gadgets.

 

I would agree that Detonator should be revamped and the interrupt in Trip Mine should be reduced, but it's a fun set. I have my powers set up exclusively with Procs too.

[Scarlet Shocker]

[Uun]

I've got a Beast/Traps MM and find Traps to be quite powerful. I'll grant you that Triage Beacon and Trip Mine aren't particularly useful on fast moving teams and don't use them often in that setting. Force Field Generator follows you around and provides mezz protection as well as defense. I've got Acid Mortar and Poison Trap recharging in about 35s each (without Hasten) and frequently have more than one out. They can easily be deployed for every fight. (Dropping Poison Trap usually gives you a window to toe bomb a Trip Mine.) I don't slot Seeker Drones for recharge but they're still up pretty often and they accept the Pet set resist/defense uniques. 

 

8 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Traps is fine, although the MM version still gets Detonator rather than the more useful Temporal Bomb.

Detonator was revamped at the same time Time Bomb was replaced with Temporal Bomb. It now allows you to target a henchman and blow them up immediately. The damage is dependent on the slotting and rank of the henchman targeted (T3 > T2 > T1 due to level shifts), and approximates blaster nuke levels. Note, slotting the Detonator power for damage or accuracy does NOTHING and all it requires is recharge.

[Ultimo]

I grant, I've not played the set to any significant level, so my view of it is limited.  But then, that's why I made this thread.

 

I still say the cooldowns are unnecessarily long, though... Perhaps that alone would be a sufficient change to the set?  I mean, if I drop a triage beacon, and the team has moved on, I can't do it again, possibly for the rest of the mission.  That's a bit prohibitive.  

 

I had planned on skipping the Detonator power, it seems out of character for a heroic character to explode one of his henchmen.  This also might be something to change...

[Uun]

36 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

I mean, if I drop a triage beacon, and the team has moved on, I can't do it again, possibly for the rest of the mission. 

Seriously? It has a 200s recharge. With slotting you can easily get it to half that. That said, Triage Beacon used to be identical to Spirit Tree. Spirit Tree was buffed in the last patch and had its recharge reduced to 120s.

 

40 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

I had planned on skipping the Detonator power, it seems out of character for a heroic character to explode one of his henchmen.  This also might be something to change...

Don't hold your breath. Detonator was revamped last year. Also, masterminds were originally a villain AT.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

I've leveled a few Traps characters and found them to be fun and strong.  Two things I found essential for fast moving teams were super-speed and sufficient stealth.  I would frequently go in first, drop poison trap to hold everyone then acid mortar to debuff and create another target.  On the MM, by the time I have done that, my FFG and pets have caught up and protect me while cleaning up.  I was able to solo giant monsters on my Bots/traps before the changes to bots.  I assume I will still be able to but I may need to respec.

 

I don't think it needs to be revamped other than the already stated changes to Trip mine to make it useable without interruption.

 

I think you should head over to the Mastermind subforum and find yourself a build for Big Jim Ultimo.

[WumpusRat]

58 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

I grant, I've not played the set to any significant level, so my view of it is limited.  But then, that's why I made this thread.

 

I still say the cooldowns are unnecessarily long, though... Perhaps that alone would be a sufficient change to the set?  I mean, if I drop a triage beacon, and the team has moved on, I can't do it again, possibly for the rest of the mission.  That's a bit prohibitive.  

 

I had planned on skipping the Detonator power, it seems out of character for a heroic character to explode one of his henchmen.  This also might be something to change...

 

The cooldowns are long, but proper slotting can bring the recharge down a LONG way. On my trappers, most of my powers are on 30-40s recharge (and that's without using hasten), simply because of how easy it is to stack recharge on Homecoming, particularly on a mastermind (you can split Superior Mark of Supremacy into three sets of two and get 30% global recharge right there).

 

I mean, you're not going to claim the recharge on most big nuke tier-9's is "too long", right? Or the recharge on incarnate powers? Those both have a longer recharge than most traps abilities. 

 

As for detonator, I never take it. Even now, when your henchies can be resummoned quickly it's kind of a waste. Back on live it was HORRIBLE, since the recharge on the pet summoning powers was something like 30/60/90s, so losing even a tier-1 could mean a good bit before you could summon it again, and losing your tier-3 meant you had to run away for a while to regroup.

[macskull]

Is it really that time again already?

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say OP is playing a low-level character with few or no enhancements in which case yes the set's not going to feel good. Almost no sets in this game feel good at low levels, especially without enhancements. Oddly enough though, I find myself agreeing with at least a few of the points. Traps is not a great set for keeping up with a fast-moving team because it's just not mobile enough. Trip Mine needs to get the Devices treatment and Detonator needs to be replaced with the updated version every other AT got. Detonator's better now than it used to be, but that's... not saying much.

[Captain Fabulous]

Mercs/Traps is the only MM I've ever played to 50. He's ridiculously fun and just melts whatever he comes up against. And he's a common IO build with a handful of globals.

[Ultimo]

1 hour ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Mercs/Traps is the only MM I've ever played to 50. He's ridiculously fun and just melts whatever he comes up against. And he's a common IO build with a handful of globals.

I have a mercs MM too (a couple of them, actually).  They would melt things without ANY secondary, they're pretty awesome now.

 

The thing I struggle with is that I don't see Traps being as capable as the other sets.  I have Masterminds with many of the other sets available (Empathy, Dark Miasma, Poison, Radiation, Electrical Affinity, Force Field, Nature Affinity and now Traps).  The MM currently using Poison USED to use Traps, which I got to around L20 or 25.  The current guy is only around L10.  So far, every set has been very effective at all levels.  Force Fields is outstanding, as is Radiation.  Dark Miasma is very good.  The only one that seems mediocre is Poison, but I'm told it's actually rather good.  I'm not seeing it, but Poison lacks any obvious visible effects to let me know it's actually doing something... so it's hard to tell.

 

That leaves the Traps.  Maybe it's good later on, as some have said here.  Maybe I'm forced to slot for recharge to get some actual use out of it, but that strikes me as a poor design.  Still, I'm new to the set, so I just don't know it well enough to say (again, it's why I posted).

 

The last thing is the question of the CHARACTER.  In retrospect, the old Big Jim figure depicted a guy who was an adventurer with his own abilities (like the karate chop and the bulging bicep!  Remember that?).  Perhaps the Mastermind doesn't suit him anyway.

 

I'll ponder, I think I need to decide what the character should actually be at this point.  Thanks all for the input.

[TygerDarkstorm]

While I'm not opposed to Traps getting a little love, it's a perfectly fine and fun playset as it is. Some folks really need to learn that no matter what character you're playing, if you're on a team moving that quickly, you're not going to get to use all your abilities anyway. I've been on teams moving so fast I don't even get to pop my nuke or use maybe more than 1 or 2 abilities.

 

Your fundamental issue right now is not having played Traps before and not understanding its unique mechanics. This is an old set and it plays and handles differently than many of the newer sets. That doesn't mean it's bad. Traps is still a surprisingly powerful set that has a lot to offer.

 

Traps wants recharge, shittons of it because, as you noticed, it suffers a bit from cooldown times. This is why it pairs nice with primaries like Illusion Control which also demands massive amounts of recharge. Illusion/Traps controllers are also just super fun to play because the battlefield turns into a bit of a chessboard that you control and make your move it.

 

Traps also plays well with pretty much any MM primary, with Thugs and Bots previously being premier AV killers when paired with Traps. I currently have a Mercs/Traps and Demons/Traps.

 

Traps is late blooming, requires a different playstyle, and needs tons of recharge. You pick and choose what tools you need at a given moment, especially when on fast moving teams. That's part of the fun.

[Captain Fabulous]

9 hours ago, Ultimo said:

I have a mercs MM too (a couple of them, actually).  They would melt things without ANY secondary, they're pretty awesome now.

 

The thing I struggle with is that I don't see Traps being as capable as the other sets.  I have Masterminds with many of the other sets available (Empathy, Dark Miasma, Poison, Radiation, Electrical Affinity, Force Field, Nature Affinity and now Traps).  The MM currently using Poison USED to use Traps, which I got to around L20 or 25.  The current guy is only around L10.  So far, every set has been very effective at all levels.  Force Fields is outstanding, as is Radiation.  Dark Miasma is very good.  The only one that seems mediocre is Poison, but I'm told it's actually rather good.  I'm not seeing it, but Poison lacks any obvious visible effects to let me know it's actually doing something... so it's hard to tell.

 

That leaves the Traps.  Maybe it's good later on, as some have said here.  Maybe I'm forced to slot for recharge to get some actual use out of it, but that strikes me as a poor design.  Still, I'm new to the set, so I just don't know it well enough to say (again, it's why I posted).

 

The last thing is the question of the CHARACTER.  In retrospect, the old Big Jim figure depicted a guy who was an adventurer with his own abilities (like the karate chop and the bulging bicep!  Remember that?).  Perhaps the Mastermind doesn't suit him anyway.

 

I'll ponder, I think I need to decide what the character should actually be at this point.  Thanks all for the input.

Much like Controllers and Dominators with long recharge powers, Traps definitely needs +recharge in whatever form you can get it. Yeah there are a bunch of skippable powers, but that's OK.

[tidge]

Lots of good stuff I agree with:

 

15 hours ago, WumpusRat said:

The cooldowns are long, but proper slotting can bring the recharge down a LONG way. On my trappers, most of my powers are on 30-40s recharge (and that's without using hasten), simply because of how easy it is to stack recharge on Homecoming, particularly on a mastermind (you can split Superior Mark of Supremacy into three sets of two and get 30% global recharge right there).

 

As for detonator, I never take it. Even now, when your henchies can be resummoned quickly it's kind of a waste. Back on live it was HORRIBLE, since the recharge on the pet summoning powers was something like 30/60/90s, so losing even a tier-1 could mean a good bit before you could summon it again, and losing your tier-3 meant you had to run away for a while to regroup.

 

I also skip Hasten on MMs... Global Recharge is easy to come by, and MMs have a hefty Endurance tax on all their powers, so spamming powers isn't always a good thing.

 

I also have not implemented Detonator. It is probably more palatable on HC (vs. Live) for reasons stated, but for most of the content I play, and the way I leverage the primary/secondary sets it would be too much of a disruption to plan to resummon a henchmen. 

 

One of the things I like about /traps on MM is that I can skip Web Grenade, Triage Beacon, Trip Mine, and Detonator. Seeker drones only gets taken to hold a pair of globals that otherwise have to go into a henchman.

[lyra]

my illu/traps is the only toon that defeated all avs from mariajenkins.it is the onyl one i tried to do that but still.

yes on fast moving teams you can drop an acid launcher and move on.but on some teams it is poosible to have all your gear in use while tanks brings more enemies.