Knockback Should it be changed?

[Spectre7878]

City of Heroes has been out for a very long time. During that time there has been a long discussion about knock back. Some love it. Many hate it. In my opinion. I think it’s time to change knock back powers to knock down. Nothing is worse than knocking back an enemy just to have them stuck in a floor or wall. We will use Gravity control Wormhole for an example. The teleport is fine, the stun is nice, but the stupid knock back is unnecessary. Why do I want all the foes I am try to port, scattering about. It should work like fold space. Yes, I know we can use an enhancement to change things from knock back to knock down.  Should we really have to waste the slot though. I would love it if powers just did knock down and make the enhancement knock down to knock back instead. So players that want knock back can slot for it. 

 

[Chance Jackson]

I'm inclined to agree, but this is the song that never ends & it will go nowhere.

[Frozen Burn]

37 minutes ago, Spectre7878 said:

City of Heroes has been out for a very long time. During that time there has been a long discussion about knock back. Some love it. Many hate it. In my opinion. I think it’s time to change knock back powers to knock down. Nothing is worse than knocking back an enemy just to have them stuck in a floor or wall. We will use Gravity control Wormhole for an example. The teleport is fine, the stun is nice, but the stupid knock back is unnecessary. Why do I want all the foes I am try to port, scattering about. It should work like fold space. Yes, I know we can use an enhancement to change things from knock back to knock down.  Should we really have to waste the slot though. I would love it if powers just did knock down and make the enhancement knock down to knock back instead. So players that want knock back can slot for it. 

 

 

Get rid of knock back and make everything knock down instead - no.  KB has its uses and advantages just like KD does.  There are powers that should inherently KB:  Gale, Hurricane, Ki Push, etc.

 

However, in the case of Wormhole, yes, that is a power that should be inherently knock down instead.  

 

Your premise really solves nothing.  As you said, people are divided - hate it or love it.  So, blanket switching everything to the other side (KD) and creating/switching procs to turn them into KB, doesn't solve the issue - it just flip flops the side. 

 

Perhaps just a look at certain powers (like Wormhole) and see if they truly deserves to be KB (which Wormhole doesn't in most people's minds I would assume), and readjust certain powers that way.  But powers like Gale and Hurricane - strong wind forces against your foes and they only KD - doesn't fit the theme or the nature of the power and they should remain KB.  Ki Push - only KDs?  Nope - goes against what it is and should be.  Each power should be evaluated on its own merits, theme, and purpose to whether it should KB or KD.  

 

[kelika2]

change all player knockback to .45 mag or something, including temps and jobs

introduce a handful of knockback sets, revamping old and adding new.  we currently have no epic or pvp ones

when homecoming revamped elec melee/blast and made new sets that are stupid strong no one complained about the elec blast IO sets giving folks insane amounts of neat IO bonuses at levels as low as 17 or so.

[biostem]

In a perfect world, characters should be able to "pull their punches", limiting the degree to which they knock enemies back or just on their butts, but CoH doesn't really allow for that sort of dynamic.  IMHO, I think a better solution would be to introduce more KB sets that have typical and appealing set bonuses, including ones that apply some sort of -KB mag, (either per-power or globally, whose exact values can be worked out later).  If you make these sets competitive with other alternatives, and treat the -kb as a bonus and not a penalty, then I think it could work...

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Spectre7878 said:

Should we really have to waste the slot though.

2 hours ago, Spectre7878 said:

I would love it if powers just did knock down and make the enhancement knock down to knock back instead. So players that want knock back can slot for it. 

 

There's a word for saying you don't want to something and then saying others should have to do it..

 

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, Spectre7878 said:

City of Heroes has been out for a very long time. During that time there has been a long discussion about knock back. Some love it. Many hate it. In my opinion. I think it’s time to change knock back powers to knock down. Nothing is worse than knocking back an enemy just to have them stuck in a floor or wall. We will use Gravity control Wormhole for an example. The teleport is fine, the stun is nice, but the stupid knock back is unnecessary. Why do I want all the foes I am try to port, scattering about. It should work like fold space. Yes, I know we can use an enhancement to change things from knock back to knock down.  Should we really have to waste the slot though. I would love it if powers just did knock down and make the enhancement knock down to knock back instead. So players that want knock back can slot for it. 

 

No thanks

[UltraAlt]

7 hours ago, Spectre7878 said:

During that time there has been a long discussion about knock back.

 

Yes. Many many threads about it. Easy enough to search for one.

 

 

7 hours ago, Spectre7878 said:

Some love it. Many hate it.

 

There is no provable quantitative number that either love it or hate it. 

You are implying more hate it, but there is no proof of that.

 

7 hours ago, Spectre7878 said:

the stupid knock back is unnecessary.

 

Yeah. People that don't like it say that.

From may experience, most of those players seem to be playing melee characters.

It is, of course, opinion.

 

If you don't like it, don't use it.

If you don't like it when other people use it, then don't team up with players that use it.

 

Enjoy the game. But don't try to ruin it for the other players that like knocking opponents around.

 

7 hours ago, Spectre7878 said:

Why do I want all the foes I am try to port, scattering about. It should work like fold space.

 

Apparently, you don't.

However, it isn't just about your enjoyment when you are teaming with other players. They want to have fun too.

 

7 hours ago, Spectre7878 said:

Should we really have to waste the slot though.

 

Some melee characters tried to tell me to, but It didn't take me long to just put them on /ignore 

There really aren't that many of them. We only have 30 ignore slots in-game and then they oldest one gets shoved off the end of the stack.

It has been a long time since I put anyone in-game on /ignore

I guess I should word that since I "had" to anyone in-game on /ignore

 

So if you really don't want to team with people that use knockback, one good way is to put them on /ignore

That way when you recruit, they might be sending you tells but you won't get them.

 

 I have to say ... a team where everyone has knockback is a lot of fun.

 

 

Edited 6 hours ago by UltraAlt
tired ... must sleep ....

[Maelwys]

This was the last one I think?
Or at least the last one that reached critical mass.
 

(I had to buy a new cape after all the flames ruined it...) 🧯

[Ukase]

It's laughable. I don't get why folks find kb so horrible, nor do I get why some folks love it. 

KB is damage mitigation. It's a tool. There's a time to use it and a way to use it. 

I understand that a fire tanker who sets down a burn patch doesn't want some errant blaster slapping the mobs out of the burn patch. 

I also comprehend that a blaster doesn't want a freak tank boss pounding a sledgehammer fist on their character's head. KB is useful for those kinds of scenarios. 

The KB-KD enhancement...we're lucky to have it, I guess. Personally, I'd rather we didn't. I'd much prefer players learn how to use kb as a tool, rather than as a "watch this" type power. I'd also love it if melee players would just pipe it, press the F key on their target and carry on. It's not worth getting upset over. 

[Maelwys]

7 hours ago, Spectre7878 said:

I would love it if powers just did knock down and make the enhancement knock down to knock back instead. So players that want knock back can slot for it. 

IIRC that's pretty much how it works currently for regular +Knockback enhancements.
They're incredibly unpopular; but they're one of the few ways to increase the magnitude of an effect rather than its duration.
(if you enhance a Knockdown power enough that its Magnitude rises above 1.0-ish it'll turn into Knockback...)
 

[Maelwys]

1 minute ago, Ukase said:

It's laughable. I don't get why folks find kb so horrible, nor do I get why some folks love it. 

Column A tend to find KB disruptive of their playstyle.
Column B tend to find it immersive and fun, apparently.

Personally I'm firmly in Column A... partly because there are too many "bad" KB users around... and partly because most of the large AoE effects that inflict knockback are a less-than-100% chance; so it inevitably causes some mob scatter and I find the inconsistencies annoying. Saying to melee toons "just tap the follow key" inevitably degrades into arguments about "lost DPS" and ultimately still involves another player having to make adjustments to their playstyle to accommodate the KB'er; so it's not a panacea unfortunately.

I think its fair to say that whenever one person's playstyle or power choices starts causing issues for someone else on the same team- ultimately one of them will have to make a behavioural compromise or be kicked. And some people (on both sides of this very thorny issue) really hate compromising. Meh.

The real headache for me is the "enhancement tax" that I personally have to make if I wish to convert more than one of my powers from KB>KD.
Overwhelming Force at least also buffs damage aspect a little, but it's unique. So subsequent abilities effectively lose an entire slot per power to a Sudden Acceleration KB>KD IO.
 

[Skyhawke]

[lemming]

Annoyed by KB, play the new +5=7 content.   Much harder to kb stuff above your level.

 

I'm less annoyed by KB now compared to earlier days, though I've always been of the thought that if you Knock something out of range of the rest of the team, that's your responsibility to clean up.  Most people follow that.

[ShardWarrior]

Rather than removed, it would be nice if it were and option (along the lines of Swap Ammo or Staff Mastery) we could select whether we want KB or KD.  The biggest problem with KB in my experience is all of the geometry errors throughout the game on various maps.  Enemy NPCs get knocked into the geometry and get stuck.  

[Spectre7878]

I guess for me. It’s just certain powers that should have it and others shouldn’t. I have many alts that have knock back powers that I personally used kb>kd enhancement. I know how to powers like hurricane. Two powers I would like to see changed to knockdown only is gravity wormhole and fire control bonfire. I know this topic has been going on since the beginning of the game. I don’t hate knock back in certain situations. I just feel gimped on slotting when slots are precious on tight builds. 

[srmalloy]

17 minutes ago, Spectre7878 said:

Two powers I would like to see changed to knockdown only is gravity wormhole and fire control bonfire.

I can't really speak to this because the only character I have with Womhole is a Grav/Traps Controller, and it's hard to tell any KB from Womhole from the KB the mobs get from landing in the middle of the Trip Mines she puts down as a target for the Wormhole. 

[tidge]

The real villain in Knockback is the silent 'k', surely something can be done about it!

 

Also, all ATs should be changed to end in the letter 'r': so Bruters, Masterminders, Warshadiers, Widowers, and Sentinelpeppers.