Listen to Feedback: Sonic Melee Not Ready

[ShardWarrior]

6 minutes ago, Wravis said:

I'm gonna start saying this any time they release powers that underperform numbers-wise. Or any time someone points out a potential bug.

 

There are many sets that under-perform compared to others.  It has not stopped people from playing them.  Bugs that take out a server or crash the game?  Absolutely those should be addressed quickly.  Those that are not earth shattering?  They can most likely wait.

 

7 minutes ago, Wravis said:

That's just how they made it. If you don't like it, don't play it.

 

Correct.

 

7 minutes ago, Wravis said:

Better yet, don't give feedback at all. Just take everything unquestioningly.

 

The HC folks have asked for player feedback.  Some have done their due diligence and thoroughly tested the new content as best they could and provided feedback.  Whether or not the HC people decide to take that feedback into account is absolutely entirely up to them.

 

It seems to me the confusion with these posts that crop up every time new things are released for testing stems from people who appear to have a strong sense of entitlement.  HC is under no obligation to make changes based on every piece of feedback the players provide.  HC is not a commercial product.  There is no money for profit changing hands, so there is no strong incentive to keep a paying customer base happy.  It does not need any of us here.  We are nice to haves, not necessities.  We can all disappear tomorrow and the HC team will still have their servers for themselves, friends, family and those still interested playing the game.  They can turn off all servers any time they like.  

 

It seems to me that the HC folk have acknowledged that Sonic Melee is not in the best state it can be, but will release it as is and fix it later.  What more are you looking for them to do?  If it is not going to crash the server, then let them release it.  If they do or not fix it later is up to them.  

 

15 minutes ago, Wravis said:

If you don't like it, don't play it.

 

Correct.  It really is not more difficult than that.  

[arcane]

I don’t really have an opinion yet on Sonic Melee, but the “HC always releases bad sets” narrative is so tiresome. Some people don’t seem capable of functioning without Fire/Ice Blast, Bio Armor, Cold Dom/Kinetics tier sets, and that’s obviously a non-starter in reality. If you don’t think average tier sets are okay to play, have at it, but your viewpoint isn’t practical enough for the devs to take feedback from it.

[lemming]

Maybe HC isn't trying to satisfy the min-maxer and trying to go for something the average player can attain? </fftmbs>

[Psyonico]

18 minutes ago, arcane said:

I don’t really have an opinion yet on Sonic Melee, but the “HC always releases bad sets” narrative is so tiresome. Some people don’t seem capable of functioning without Fire/Ice Blast, Bio Armor, Cold Dom/Kinetics tier sets, and that’s obviously a non-starter in reality. If you don’t think average tier sets are okay to play, have at it, but your viewpoint isn’t practical enough for the devs to take feedback from it.

Remember when Marine was released and people still complained about it?

[Championess]

55 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

It pains me to see that the only people who can numerically speak to the power of a set are once again driven off by white knights for HC.

 

Yet another set's feedback thread bogged by Feels Fine to Me bullshit, or volunteer drivel. Again. 

 

Very frustrating

 

To me it clearly looks like they've been listening to most feedback so saying they aren't is very hyperbolic.  I'm a rogue and I stand where I stand, the multiple tweaks make it very evident to me feedback is accounted for.  

 

The multiple changes and complaints are getting a little long in the tooth.  Do I think its functionably decent?  Yes.  Do I think managing that toggle will be cumbersome and should bear fruit on hard targets where currently it doesn't seem so?  Yes.  It's in a fine enough state where they can release it and see how it plays after the holiday rest with lots more data to mine.

 

The largest undertaking has got to be all that MM stuff that has needed to get the ball rolling for a while now.  I'm glad that's happening and I don't even play them.  

 

Chill out it's just a videogame the devs clearly love to play as well.  

 

 

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

There are many sets that under-perform compared to others.  It has not stopped people from playing them.  Bugs that take out a server or crash the game?  Absolutely those should be addressed quickly.  Those that are not earth shattering?  They can most likely wait.

 

 

Correct.

 

 

The HC folks have asked for player feedback.  Some have done their due diligence and thoroughly tested the new content as best they could and provided feedback.  Whether or not the HC people decide to take that feedback into account is absolutely entirely up to them.

 

It seems to me the confusion with these posts that crop up every time new things are released for testing stems from people who appear to have a strong sense of entitlement.  HC is under no obligation to make changes based on every piece of feedback the players provide.  HC is not a commercial product.  There is no money for profit changing hands, so there is no strong incentive to keep a paying customer base happy.  It does not need any of us here.  We are nice to haves, not necessities.  We can all disappear tomorrow and the HC team will still have their servers for themselves, friends, family and those still interested playing the game.  They can turn off all servers any time they like.  

 

It seems to me that the HC folk have acknowledged that Sonic Melee is not in the best state it can be, but will release it as is and fix it later.  What more are you looking for them to do?  If it is not going to crash the server, then let them release it.  If they do or not fix it later is up to them.  

 

 

Correct.  It really is not more difficult than that.  

 

For the record I'm fine with it being released and them fixing it later. 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Please keep the discussion to the issues at hand, which are: 1) does HC listen to feedback and 2) is sonic melee "ready."

 

Arguing whether someone is a white knight, black night, hero, villain, rogue, or vigilante is not needed.

[Gobbledigook]

6 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Fun Fact:  Did you know that we can tell if you've logged on to Brainstorm (open beta) or the other servers?  That includes seeing the AT, powersets, time played, etc.

 

Your criticisms and critiques have much more weight when you actually try something and provide data points to show why you think something needs changing.  "Everybody knows it's bad" is certainly a permissible statement to make.  Hyperbole is usually not very persuasive.   

 

A much more persuasive statement is one that shows that you tested the new thing and can provide videos, photos, spreadsheets, etc. to prove your point.  None of those things are required.  But providing them is much more likely to influence change. 

Big Brother is watching! 🫵

[Gobbledigook]

I have not actually tried SM (hence my lack of feedback on this set), only the MM changes but i tend to stay clear of certain gimmicky sets, hit A then B to open C sort of sets.

Edited Wednesday at 11:32 PM by Gobbledigook

[PeregrineFalcon]

Hello all.

 

I have done no testing at all for this page, mostly because Sonic Melee just didn't seem that interesting to me. However, I did want to stop in and say "thank you." This thread has been very entertaining.

 

Take care all and Happy Thanksgiving.

[Glacier Peak]

32 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Hello all.

 

I have done no testing at all for this page, mostly because Sonic Melee just didn't seem that interesting to me. However, I did want to stop in and say "thank you." This thread has been very entertaining.

 

Take care all and Happy Thanksgiving.

What no /jranger!?

[Psi-bolt]

5 hours ago, arcane said:

I don’t really have an opinion yet on Sonic Melee, but the “HC always releases bad sets” narrative is so tiresome. Some people don’t seem capable of functioning without Fire/Ice Blast, Bio Armor, Cold Dom/Kinetics tier sets, and that’s obviously a non-starter in reality. If you don’t think average tier sets are okay to play, have at it, but your viewpoint isn’t practical enough for the devs to take feedback from it.

 

The thing about Fire/Ice Blast and other top tier sets is that they get that performance very easily.    Personally, I don't have any problem with sets having mechanics or unique features.  But those sets should provide a benefit for the additional fiddling.   That benefit doesn't necessarily have to be DPS, but it should be something.  Otherwise, the only reason to play a set is thematic.  Which is not a bad reason, of course, but it does limit its use.  

 

So for example, since Attune is intended to juice your ST damage against hard target (hard as in high health), then Attune should in theory provide a slightly better benefit than a set that doesn't require a toggle DoT to improve its damage.  That just seems sensible IMO.  Now Attune isn't that hard to set up and Captain Powerhouse has made it much better to use while this has been on Open Beta.  So while I think there should be benefit to having to use Attune compared to other sets, it doesn't need to be massive.

[Glacier Peak]

Homecoming listens to feedback. 

 

I've never seen in any other free game, (let alone in any paid game), someone from the development team respond to a reported bug or issue in real time, post a patch to fix it, then re-engage with the person who reported it to check if that issue was resolved. That's insane by itself, but add in that neither myself or the developer are paid to do either of those things and we both have other obligations, and it's a miracle to me. It might even be foolish because now that's the standard that I expect working with the Homecoming Team - but it works both ways. I'm not going to waste their time with garbage knee jerk patch note rants because there are plenty of posters who do that already in these forums and Discord. They should expect from me, and anyone else who participates in testing, the same level of passion and effort that players expect of them. 

 

And that's my opinion. 

[Captain Powerhouse]

8 hours ago, Wravis said:

  

 

 

I wont lie... I did face palm 👀 

 

(sorry @GM_GooglyMoogly)

[Captain Powerhouse]

On 11/18/2025 at 6:27 PM, Snarky said:

they did not listen on the rewrite of Black Hole...

 

look, the CoH Homecoming team is great.  to a point.  (in my opinion) when they decide to do something they really only listen for echo chamber sentiments.  anything contrary to the pre made decisions is noted, filed, and forgotten.

 

This is a fascinating example to use in this discussion, because listen to whom?

 

There are players that begged for the power not to lose its existing functionality as they would use it for phase av in some content types. If we CAN retain such functionality and add a new feature, we will.

 

But we won't listen to players telling us NOT to listen to another group of players. Especially when that other group are advocating for the state of the set/power, power that was not being changed due to over-performance issues. In the past we have changed some powers with the intent to improve, and sacrificed previous players attachments to said powers and not because they were overperforming. We considered that to be a mistake and try not to repeat it.

 

The fact that the phase functionality remained is precisely proof that we listen to players and tried our best to deliver a middle ground. And funny enough, there are further tweaks in the queue for the test that have been tested in closed beta... or at least hit, not sure if some of the advocates for phase actually tested it, but in the time it was there we didn't hear complaints. Frustratingly, that change could not make the opening of the page due to merge conflicts as it was a very old branch. But do stay [a]tunned 🥁 (ok I'll walk myself out... a gain).

 

 

[Starhammer]

On 11/18/2025 at 3:45 PM, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 

I think I may have a different definition of "listen" than some of you.  I consider listening is hearing and paying attention to what is being said.  I submit that HC does indeed hear the complaints and critiques just as well as we hear the kudos and congrats.

 

Some may be thinking of "listen" like when a parent tells a child, "you better listen to what I am telling you!"  Or something similar outside of a parent-child relationship.  In my mind that goes beyond listening; that is "hear me and obey."

 

I admit that we aren't as good at the obey part.

FWIW, (and I know this isn't directly related to this specific thread)... I think when we get enough interaction/response to at least know we have been heard, that is sufficiently validating, regardless of where it goes after. It's just a nice reminder that we haven't wasted our time (I know most folks have much less than me to invest) trying to add our 2 bits in a vain hope of making things a little better here or there. So for all the devs & mods that keep the interaction going, thank you.

"If you don't like it, don't play it"

To be fair, that's pretty much how it will go when it hits live. But in a feedback thread, it's not helpful. When we just shut up and accept what we're given, even/especially when it isn't fully cooked, it implies acceptance of a new standard or precedent. Any of us putting any effort into these updates, even us mere players, content consumers, should be doing everything within our power to strive for whatever improvements we can inspire or coerce. We can't let the strive for Perfection undermine "Good Enough" to release, but neither should we allow Good Enough to sidetrack the continued journey toward Perfection. It's not a binary issue.

May everyone's holidays be joyous, and may you experience what you celebrate for others 🙂

[Snarky]

6 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

This is a fascinating example to use in this discussion, because listen to whom?

 

There are players that begged for the power not to lose its existing functionality as they would use it for phase av in some content types. If we CAN retain such functionality and add a new feature, we will.

 

But we won't listen to players telling us NOT to listen to another group of players. Especially when that other group are advocating for the state of the set/power, power that was not being changed due to over-performance issues. In the past we have changed some powers with the intent to improve, and sacrificed previous players attachments to said powers and not because they were overperforming. We considered that to be a mistake and try not to repeat it.

 

The fact that the phase functionality remained is precisely proof that we listen to players and tried our best to deliver a middle ground. And funny enough, there are further tweaks in the queue for the test that have been tested in closed beta... or at least hit, not sure if some of the advocates for phase actually tested it, but in the time it was there we didn't hear complaints. Frustratingly, that change could not make the opening of the page due to merge conflicts as it was a very old branch. But do stay [a]tunned 🥁 (ok I'll walk myself out... a gain).

 

 

This is a prime example of the disconnect between players feedback and Devs i was referring to.  Thank you.  
 

“but we won’t listen to players telling us not to listen to another group of players.”   
 

it is important for the “listen to feedback” staff to separate the wheat from the chaff.  You will always get chaff.  Ignoring wheat because it is mixed with chaff?   But that is what the  HC staff do.  In my opinion.  They make a directive, and then listen for people that agree.  Anyone that disagrees is a person trying to get staff to ignore players. Bad.  
 

yes, they kept the phase shift functionality in black hole.  But, and i don’t know if anyone on HC staff plays this power, it creates havoc in game. I played it for over a month on live. The phase shift activates on specific mobs (immune to KB) which include things like DE emanators and other special mobs.  The power itself, deep in a AT set, is much weaker than Fold Space, and it annoyingly leaves part of some groups unmoved AND phase shifted. Which us near impossible to explain to teammates even on Discord.  I have tried.  

 

but they kept the phase shift for that 1% of players who take the power and like it like that. And anyone that says it is hot garbage is obviously trying to destroy Devs work and ruin the enjoyment of the dedicated 7 people who have used this power this way for all these years…

 

Do i have a recommendation? Yes.  
 

HC staff knows almost no one takes or uses the power based on data.  They know almost everyone on the boards thinks it is garbage.  That is why they rewrote it.  DO NOT then listen to the minority who want to keep it unplayable because the people who want a working power come iff as “a group of players telling us not you listen to another group of players”. When they are really “a group of players who want this power and powerset to work” so that people finally take and use it.  
 

 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

I edited the thread to remove some bickering and magical Snarky duplification.

 

Please keep the discussion on the topic and not each other.

[Skyhawke]

11 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

What no /jranger!?

 

Since we're coming into the "giving season". 😄

 

 

[Snarky]

49 minutes ago, Skyhawke said:

 

Since we're coming into the "giving season". 😄

 

 

I always have a giddy teenage girl inner shriek “Oklahoman!!!” 

[Seed22]

I will say, being a good dev is difficult to do. You need to be in tune with your playerbase and have your own passion projects be in alignment with said base since you are, in fact, putting something in a game for said players. 

 

Thats hard to do in an MMO because while these games are meant to be for everyone by nature of being an MMO, such a feat is a literal impossibility, making the game almost a paradox by nature. 

 

With that said, efforts can and honestly should be made to be less out of touch with the community, and trying to just get affirmations only and ignore people who have provided data in past pages for powersets and this one that don't suit your narrative, is an alarming direction to take.

[arcane]

In fairness, if my definition of bad development was the team implementing ideas other than my own, I’d probably be pissy too. 

[golstat2003]

46 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

I will say, being a good dev is difficult to do. You need to be in tune with your playerbase and have your own passion projects be in alignment with said base since you are, in fact, putting something in a game for said players. 

 

Thats hard to do in an MMO because while these games are meant to be for everyone by nature of being an MMO, such a feat is a literal impossibility, making the game almost a paradox by nature. 

 

With that said, efforts can and honestly should be made to be less out of touch with the community, and trying to just get affirmations only and ignore people who have provided data in past pages for powersets and this one that don't suit your narrative, is an alarming direction to take.

 

Saying a power will release as is and can be worked on later, I don't think is bad stance to take. Especially when it's a timing and scheduling issue versus a freaking holiday time period. LOL

 

Neither is saying this feature is releasing now, and will be updated later.

 

As I mentioned I'd earlier I'd rather we NOT do the whole "feature creep, don't release anything until everything is 100% perfect" that Paragon used to do, and HC was nearly doing.

 

We already get complaints from certain people that features take too long to release.

[Ghost]

20 hours ago, Wravis said:

I'm gonna start saying this any time they release powers that underperform numbers-wise. Or any time someone points out a potential bug.

That's just how they made it. If you don't like it, don't play it.

Better yet, don't give feedback at all. Just take everything unquestioningly. If you don't like it, don't play it.

A bug?  That should be pointed out.  Never said it shouldn’t.

A potential bug?  That means it may or may not be an issue.  It should be brought up, but that’s it.  If they decide it’s a non-issue, that’s on them.  
 

Not performing the way you like?
That’s a YOU issue which can easily be resolved by…..not playing the AT.

 

 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

It's always a difficult balance.

 

Do we listen to group A or group B (not to mention C through ZZZ or the vast majority who say nothing)?

 

Do we release now and fix later or hold until it is perfect?

 

How will we know if it's perfect if one group or another still doesn't like it?

 

Is this powerset over-powered or under-powered?  And compared to what? And under what circumstances, like level, slotting, pairing with this secondary or that secondary, on this AT or that AT?

 

We can't base these decisions on a poll or on whoever posts the most.  It's not that those that posts are ignored, it's that it's just one factor.  Ultimately, we have to rely on our own judgment taking all feedback, number crunching, data mining, and everything else into consideration.  And I say "we" but I have little to no extra say as any other player.  I mean HC as a team.  Sometimes that means you get stuck with (or pleased to keep) beanbag.  Sometimes that means you get Marine Affinity . . . or Axe Cyclone . . . or hard mode . . . or base stuff . . . or story stuff . . . or costume pieces.  Everyone has things they like and dislike.  The goal is to give everyone something, as often as possible if not every Issue or Page.

 

We aren't perfect.  We make mistakes.  But we try our best to make the game a fun place for as many people as possible.