Make the early game fun: Remove TOs/DOs.

[justicebeliever]

I'd also be in favor of lower the minimum level that you can buy SO's from a Reward Merit Vendor - If we can get lvl 6 SO's from DFB, no reason you can't from a merit vendor...

[_NOPE_]

Just now, Obsidius said:

I can code. But I don't have time to do that. Because I'm cooking. For my family. 🤷‍♂️

[DrIlluminatis]

Here's my 2 Influence:

 

I think Training Enhancements are fine up to level 10. It helps newer players get the hang of slotting, and it doesn't punish you if you make too big a mistake in slotting.

 

Newer players also can't send themselves millions in INF so they could fully slot SO's at level 10, so TO's are still a necessary evil.

 

Yes Training Enh suck, but the mobs are scaled around TO's until around lvl 15 ish  when the Cheaper and not as good SO's become available anyway.

Edited August 7, 2019 by DrIlluminatis

[Leogunner]

There is an argument here to be made about instant gratification and its overall effects on not only the health of a game but also on the mental well being of a player.  Maybe if I were in college for game design, I could make a basic project on it...

[GM Fiddleback]

I feel like at least one of you is being a bit disingenuous with your counter-points. Which leads to people being upset, which then leads to flame wars. Consider that the best policy is often to either actually discuss you position and opinions in an honest manner, or to find a different discussion that is more suited to you.

 

After all, anyone can post, but not everyone should.

 

 

[justicebeliever]

13 minutes ago, GM Fiddleback said:

I feel like at least one of you is being a bit disingenuous with your counter-points. Which leads to people being upset, which then leads to flame wars. Consider that the best policy is often to either actually discuss you position and opinions in an honest manner, or to find a different discussion that is more suited to you.

 

After all, anyone can post, but not everyone should.

 

 

I'm not 100% sure who you are referring to, but I'll assume you mean me...to whit I say that I am 100% sincere in my counter-points...

 

I think the wholesale replacement/modification of TO/DO's would be bad game policy, but I support easier access to DO/SO's as part of running missions/story arcs/exchanging reward merits...

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, kenlon said:

 

You wouldn't be removing them just to remove them, though - you'd be removing them and having SOs drop in their place. 

Yes, I know lol.  I was referring to an earlier comments in the thread suggesting the OPs idea was along the lines of  "a lot of work to fix a non-issue".

[krj12]

1.  Not sure I really see the problem with TOs and DOs.   They appear to me to be somewhat balanced in comparison to the enemies you're facing. 

2.  They give your character a clear feeling of progression.  I like that my character appears to be getting more powerful vs what he's facing at each level.  The progression

of better enhancements is part of that.

3.   Just curious how a new level 1 could afford to purchase SOs unless they already have a level 50 to finance them.  Wouldn't really be fair to a truly new player to be presented

with enhancements that he couldn't afford.

[Moonshades]

I feel like the thrust of this thread is "Make the early game easier for me," in a game that is already pretty easy and becomes so much so that teams in the end game find most content trivial. The ease of levelling in this game has already been streamlined so much since the early issues that I can't agree with the OP. The early game isn't particularly hard. I generally have little trouble breezing through the first 12-15 levels with not only no SOs, but no enhancement of any kind.

 

I'll agree with one point: Training enhancements suck, but I'd argue that they are underwhelming by design. They are bargain basement loot for characters in the basement of progression. They are good enough, if you choose to use them, to get that level 9 Frostfire mission accomplished. Or Shauna Stockwell Skulls arc or what have you. When you really need to upgrade your characters with actual enhancements, DOs then SOs begin to be available, or IOs if you have the inf for them. 

 

To sum up, TOs aren't broken or irrelevant. They are working as intended.

[justicebeliever]

38 minutes ago, Moonshades said:

I feel like the thrust of this thread is "Make the early game easier for me," in a game that is already pretty easy and becomes so much so that teams in the end game find most content trivial. The ease of levelling in this game has already been streamlined so much since the early issues that I can't agree with the OP. The early game isn't particularly hard. I generally have little trouble breezing through the first 12-15 levels with not only no SOs, but no enhancement of any kind.

 

I'll agree with one point: Training enhancements suck, but I'd argue that they are underwhelming by design. They are bargain basement loot for characters in the basement of progression. They are good enough, if you choose to use them, to get that level 9 Frostfire mission accomplished. Or Shauna Stockwell Skulls arc or what have you. When you really need to upgrade your characters with actual enhancements, DOs then SOs begin to be available, or IOs if you have the inf for them. 

 

To sum up, TOs aren't broken or irrelevant. They are working as intended.

I agree this 100%...but more importantly, I love your avatar...

[Some Random User]

So how would I personally fix this situation? How does this look to you?

 

The short answer is that I'd institute all of the following:

1. I'd do away with T.O.s entirely. Only D.O.s, S.O.s, Salvage, and Recipes as drops from level 2 on.
2. I'd give a meaningful incentive to slot D.O.s by giving them a straightforward trade-off: Making them only drop as Attuned versions of themselves. This gives a player a reason to ever slot them, even with the lower bonus (because they're more cost effective). This doesn't eliminate the math advantage S.O.s and I.O.s already have, so some players will use them instead.
3. I'd make a design principle that the effects created by higher-level S.O.s are balanced to always be better than equal-level I.O.s (this would require adjustment of either S.O.s or I.O.s for some levels). That way there would always be a reason to use S.O.s (some players just want the best bonuses).
4. I'd bring back the relevance of the N.P.C.s' stores by making the prices of D.O.s and S.O.s something that made sense. Since you still want to be able to slot Sets and your own cool crafted stuff there's still a reason to use Wentworth's, but would allow skipping the auction house for any players who didn't want to. I can still have my level 40 with nothing but Common I.O.s if I want, and can still hook him up with some less frequent Set I.O.s if I want, and if I want to just use Attuned D.Os and wait until level 50 I can.

[Moonshades]

1 hour ago, justicebeliever said:

I agree this 100%...but more importantly, I love your avatar...

It would be more than stretching the truth to say I was friends with Ascendant, but I  did talk to him in game a couple of times and he always seemed willing to have a friendly conversation with anyone at any time.

 

The latter of the two conversations was in Pocket D after he had done one of his famous one sided phone conversations with Saul all about the injustice of NCSoft shutting down the game. I can't recapture it here, but it was a moment of in game magic.

 

Having only found out about Homecoming a little over a month ago now, i wanted my first forum avatar to be an homage to him.

 

Sorry for the thread derail.

[ShardWarrior]

2 hours ago, krj12 said:

1.  Not sure I really see the problem with TOs and DOs.   They appear to me to be somewhat balanced in comparison to the enemies you're facing. 

2.  They give your character a clear feeling of progression.  I like that my character appears to be getting more powerful vs what he's facing at each level.  The progression

of better enhancements is part of that.

3.   Just curious how a new level 1 could afford to purchase SOs unless they already have a level 50 to finance them.  Wouldn't really be fair to a truly new player to be presented

with enhancements that he couldn't afford.

A level 1 can run a couple of DFBs and either slot or sell the SOs drops they get.  Expense is not really a problem anymore. 

[Heraclea]

I don't see an urgent need to remove them, though I don't pay much attention to them myself.  I will run DFB on a new character, but that's just to get them to 12 and the invention tutorial for the free accuracy IO.  They will slot level 15 IOs at that time, mostly accuracy for attacks and endurance reduction for toggles, with 3 endurance mods for Stamina, and leave the rest of the holes to be filled with any TO or DO drops they can use.  My mains have most of the recipes memorized by now.  What I don't do is to use anything that withers and dies for anything important. 

[Zepp]

While I feel like this may be a good idea, it will not affect me as I am lazy/cheap and don't use enhancements until I'm at least level 20. That being said, I definitely agree that there is a need to simplify the enhancement drop structure if it can be done in a way that can actually streamline the code without breaking it or requiring excessive effort.

[justicebeliever]

4 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

A level 1 can run a couple of DFBs and either slot or sell the SOs drops they get.  Expense is not really a problem anymore. 

If I sell a lvl 5 Acurracy SO for 4000, and want to buy a lvl 5 damage for 7000, how does that help me?

 

If SO's become commonplace at the lower levels, than their value will drop (SO's aren't seeded in the market), but the cost of new SO's at the stores will startat 2100 for lvl 5 intangibility to 7K for lvl 5 accuracy (for comparison, a lvl 5 TO for accuracy is 576)...If the solution is to run more DFB so that you can get more SO's, then you don't need to change the game, because DFB already does that...

 

If the solution for people at lower levels who don't run DFB to get better enhancements is to go run a few DFB, I'm really unclear on the need for this solution...

 

Cost is always an issue, unless you have ton's of money, and then go buy IO's at lvl 7...

 

And again, we'd have to rebalance the entire IO system if you drop TO/DO and replace with SO...

 

You keep trying to make this sound small and easy, but it's technically complicated with giant repercussions for the lower level...

[DSorrow]

TOs/DOs aren't a critical issue, but they're pretty much completely irrelevant in the game right now. So far on Homecoming I haven't bought or slotted a single TO/DO/SO on any of my alts, because there's just no reason to do so, especially if you play with DXP on like I've done ever since my first 50. It takes an hour to get to lvl 22 and buying or slotting TOs won't make any difference in that. Two additional hours and you're at 22, again, DOs will only make an ever so slight difference in how that gameplay feels for a short while. SOs would have a noticeable impact, but at the same level I can already slot equally powerful IOs that I won't have to replace.

 

I'd probably combine DOs and TOs (DO enhancement values, TO costs) to be the training wheels enhancement category and make SOs drop from all enemies from lvl 12, plus cut their costs by at least half so that they'd have a short term cost advantage vs IOs. Even then, I probably wouldn't buy any but I might stop to slot stuff that drops for me instead of getting to 22 without enhancements.

 

Quote

And again, we'd have to rebalance the entire IO system if you drop TO/DO and replace with SO

Why?

Edited August 8, 2019 by DSorrow

[justicebeliever]

1 hour ago, justicebeliever said:

And again, we'd have to rebalance the entire IO system if you drop TO/DO and replace with SO...

 

11 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

Why?



Because IO's effectiveness are balanced against TO's up to lvl 12 I think, and DO's up to lvl 22...So if SO's become the new thing for all characters < lvl 22, then IO's are pretty much worthless at those lower levels, since they would be way underbalanced...Which means prices for everything change up and down the market.  Unless you rebalance them...either way you change how they are balanced in the game...

 

My suggestion was to start dropping DO's as a mission complete bonus and SO's for every story arc completed...It get's you access to more of them, but ultimately, for something most people fly by (the lower levels), why spend time tinkering on this?

[DSorrow]

1 minute ago, justicebeliever said:

Because IO's effectiveness are balanced against TO's up to lvl 12 I think, and DO's up to lvl 22...So if SO's become the new thing for all characters < lvl 22, then IO's are pretty much worthless at those lower levels, since they would be way underbalanced...Which means prices for everything change up and down the market.  Unless you rebalance them...either way you change how they are balanced in the game...

 

 

Because of the bucketing and attuning in the market, that "worthlessness" or price changes would only apply to lvl 10, 15 and 20 generic IOs so it's hardly a requirement to rebalance the entire IO system. Besides, I don't think it's a huge issue if there's a 10 level range where generic IOs aren't objectively the best choice to go for, especially when they still have the advantage of not needing to be replaced.

Quote

My suggestion was to start dropping DO's as a mission complete bonus and SO's for every story arc completed...It get's you access to more of them, but ultimately, for something most people fly by (the lower levels), why spend time tinkering on this?

Like I said, not a huge issue as it takes me on average less than 3 hours to get to 22 (1-2x DFB + Posi1 and Posi2) without slotting any enhancements at all. 

[kenlon]

41 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

So if SO's become the new thing for all characters < lvl 22, then IO's are pretty much worthless at those lower levels, since they would be way underbalanced..

. . . wait, seriously? This is your actual argument?

 

Why on god's green and fuzzy earth would anything need to be done to IOs if low level characters got access to SOs? 

[Bionic_Flea]

I just don't see the existence of TOs and DOs to be a problem.  They can be used or ignored as a player deems fit in any number of ways.  The first 12 levels go by incredibly fast whether you run DFB, use 2XP, get farmed, or just kill Hellions solo.  You don't ever have to slot TOs.  You certainly don't need to buy any, but they're cheap if you want to.

 

Getting to 22 takes a little bit longer but it's not very long either.  But you can also start slotting IOs at level 7 including some great attuned sets, even more of those open up by level 20.

 

I stopped buying TOs and DOs and even SOs back when the game was live.  There's no sense having to continuously buy more as you level if you use IOs.

[ShardWarrior]

4 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

If I sell a lvl 5 Acurracy SO for 4000, and want to buy a lvl 5 damage for 7000, how does that help me?

You're already more than halfway there and in the examples given, you're not just getting 1 drop to sell, so its not just a 1 to 1 thing.  DFB rewards around 5 or 6 per run, not to mention any salvage you can sell. 

 

As for the dangers of having SOs become commonplace at lower levels, I would say they already are commonplace via DFB/DiB/Summer BB etc. and it hasn't destroyed the whole IO balance.

4 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

You keep trying to make this sound small and easy, but it's technically complicated with giant repercussions for the lower level...

I never said or suggested anything of the sort with regard to the amount of work involved.  I'm quite sure it isn't a simple thing to do.  All I've said is that I would support the idea of removing an antiquated piece of the game that has no value anymore and replacing it with something better.  I believe that is worth discussion.

Edited August 8, 2019 by ShardWarrior

[Cinnder]

I'm with the folk who don't see a problem with TOs as they are now.  Given that there's a way round this with the DO drops from DFB, doesn't the current configuration provide options so everyone can have a choice?  I personally like the progression from TO to IO and don't run the DFB because I already think the early levels go by way too quickly for my taste.

[nihilii]

Not to belittle anyone who feels differently. But as someone who believes the modern early game is perfectly fine... I wonder how things would play out if developers ran a sneak experiment.

Removing TOs and DOs, replacing them with SOs as soon as level 1. But only in appearance.

You'd see a +33% boost on your enhancement bar, and on your power totals once slotted; while behind the scenes it'd give you only the bonus of a TO/DO appropriate for your level.

Would people start thinking the early game is fine thanks to a perception trick?

For that matter, how many of the people who believe the early game is a slog feel that way because they have years of accumulated experience before origin powers, temp powers, veteran powers, increased lowbie tohit, praetorian enhancements, amplifiers, increased XP curves, and so on.

🤔

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, nihilii said:

For that matter, how many of the people who believe the early game is a slog feel that way because they have years of accumulated experience before origin powers, temp powers, veteran powers, increased lowbie tohit, praetorian enhancements, amplifiers, increased XP curves, and so on.

That's sort of the point - the early game really isn't a slog and TOs were a help back before all the stuff you mentioned.  That is not the game anymore  and TOs don't really serve much of a purpose.