Hasten

[SeraphimKensai]

What would the world of CoH look like if Hasten was an Auto power?

[Tony Amore]

Do you mean like the Fitness pool? Or like Fast Healing for Regeneration Scrappers?

[ShardWarrior]

This assumes everyone takes Hasten for every character.  Hasten certainly isn't as much a requirement as Stamina IMO.

[Tony Amore]

I love Hasten but doesn't it cause your powers to eat End like crazy?

[GM Sijin]

2 minutes ago, Tony Amore said:

I love Hasten but doesn't it cause your powers to eat End like crazy?

No, except by enabling you to use them more frequently. It DOES consume 15% endurance when its effect ends, though.

 

To answer the original question: Hasten is significantly overbudgeted for an auto power and its effects would be reduced to, likely around 15-25% from 70%. That or a hefty endurance reduction penalty (or other negative) would be applied to balance the power, either of which could dramatically reduce its appeal. Without the breakpoint of 'permahasten' there might also be a bit of a shift in how much recharge recharge-focused builds go for.

[Tony Amore]

I remember before the Big Collapse of 2012, I had Hasten six slotted with recharge enhancements and it would fire off automatically before the 2 minute time limit expired. Boy that was fun!

[Some Random User]

Wasn't there talk way back when [Stamina] was made Inherent? You know, about why making [Hasten] Inherent wasn't on the table?

 

If the O.P. meant this to be taken differently:

 

Even with the reductions, I'd favor making Hasten an Auto, but require more of the Pool to be taken, essentially shuffle around the five so that you have to have more than one prerequisite to get Hasten.

[ZeeHero]

Hasten is pointless for builds which already cap recharge through things like force feedback and time, and for MMs its very skippable.

[biostem]

There are powers in other sets that are auto and grant a recharge bonus, (like lightning reflexes in electric armor).  You'd have to knock the value down to around what that provides, then drop it a little lower still, since pool powers generally aren't as good as primary or secondary ones...

[ZeeHero]

if you do that doms suffer greatly, as theyre only powerful if they have perma dom. doms would need to be adjusted.

[SeraphimKensai]

For some clarification, as was requested via a message to me, I meant as an Auto Power such as any of the fitness powers, except that you would have to buy the power.

 

I'm not necessarily advocating one way or the other for any changes mind you, just sparking a bit of discourse regarding hasten, as I thought apparent by asking a question rather than making a flat out request.

 

And hypothetically if changed, some balancing would likely be required whether repositioning the power in the pool, or reducing it's effect to compensate as others have mentioned.

 

That said though, it's significantly easier to achieve permadom than achieving perma hasten. So perhaps if Hasten was an auto recharge bonus power, maybe users would have similar or possibly easier methods to hit permadom, or perma pa, etc. I know with dominators in particular, you could then effectively keep domination on auto as well.

 

Regarding the endurance usage, I think the extra recharge cycling of abilities is offset by the ability to continue to attack say a group of mobs, so I imagine without doing any empirical testing, that aspect of the endurance issue is a net zero change. That said, the 15% reduction when it crashes definitely helps deplete an endurance bar, and occurs more frequently the more endurance that is used.

 

Then again remember I'm not expressing any one particular point of view, only discussing possibilities. Thanks.

Edited August 14, 2019 by SeraphimKensai

[biostem]

SeraphimKensai said:  "For some clarification, as was requested via a message to me, I meant as an Auto Power such as any of the fitness powers, except that you would have to buy the power."

 

This doesn't clear things up at all.  Either you mean making hasten an INHERENT power, meaning you get it automatically without having to specifically use a power pick to get it, (which is how fitness is currently, upon attaining level 2), or you mean making it an "auto power", which means that you still have to use a power pick to get it, but instead of it being a toggle or click power, its effect is "always on"...

[Megajoule]

"Some" balancing is an understatement. You are essentially proposing - excuse me, "inviting discussion" - on an across-the-board reduction in recharge.  This will certainly have "some" effect on the entire game.

 

And having opened the can of worms, what is to prevent (if I may engage, just for a moment, in my own hypothetical slippery slope fallacy) calls for more reduction, and then still more, all the way to instantaneous cooldowns? As a practical matter, of course, I realize we will never reach that theoretical maximum; any given poster will likely be satisfied once they, personally, can achieve perma-whatever.

 

(For purposes of this discussion, I will also leave unaddressed the possibility of reducing cooldowns still further, into the negatives, so that powers fire even before we form the desire to activate them.)

[ZeeHero]

28 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

"Some" balancing is an understatement. You are essentially proposing - excuse me, "inviting discussion" - on an across-the-board reduction in recharge.  This will certainly have "some" effect on the entire game.

 

And having opened the can of worms, what is to prevent (if I may engage, just for a moment, in my own hypothetical slippery slope fallacy) calls for more reduction, and then still more, all the way to instantaneous cooldowns? As a practical matter, of course, I realize we will never reach that theoretical maximum; any given poster will likely be satisfied once they, personally, can achieve perma-whatever.

 

(For purposes of this discussion, I will also leave unaddressed the possibility of reducing cooldowns still further, into the negatives, so that powers fire even before we form the desire to activate them.)

Not to agree with nerfing hasten cuz I dont agree, but Hasten is already an across the board reduction in recharge for -most- non MM builds. because nobody skips it if they want full effectiveness. I'd like to see hasten deleted and replaced with something else entirely and all powers affected by hasten having their base recharge reduced somewhat.

[SeraphimKensai]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

SeraphimKensai said:  "For some clarification, as was requested via a message to me, I meant as an Auto Power such as any of the fitness powers, except that you would have to buy the power."

 

This doesn't clear things up at all.  Either you mean making hasten an INHERENT power, meaning you get it automatically without having to specifically use a power pick to get it, (which is how fitness is currently, upon attaining level 2), or you mean making it an "auto power", which means that you still have to use a power pick to get it, but instead of it being a toggle or click power, its effect is "always on"...

All of the powers in the Fitness pool are auto powers, in that the power is auto aka always on. The entire pool however is granted for free as an "inherent ability", as I said purchasing the power, implies that hasten would not be inherent, as you would have to expend a power selection on it.

[Megajoule]

"I want to have _______ up All The Time" is clearly a common (but not universal, IMO) goal. I submit, however, that it falls to those wanting limits on their power(s) removed to make their case why that would be a good thing for the game.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Megajoule

[Zolgar]

6 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

Hasten is pointless for builds which already cap recharge through things like force feedback and time, and for MMs its very skippable.

MMs that don't want Hasten (which plenty do want it), and the few builds that exist that can approach recharge cap without Hasten are enough of edge cases to not really be relevant to this discussion. It's like saying not to increase Lusca's reward because people can solo her.

In regards to the OP-

 

If they mean an inherent power, (you get it automatically at level x):

80% (estimated) of the population would have an extra power/pool pick, but not have the slots to spare for that pick. You'd see a marked increase in people taking like the Concealment pool because Stealth makes a good proc mule, there would be a very minor over all increase in the general power level of the game, but ultimately it wouldn't really change much.

If they meant an auto power, (it's always on):

80% (estimated) of the population would have 1-2 more slots to play with on their build, an increased number of people would take it (assuming there was no nerf to correspond with it becoming auto), it would go from being something that most people take, even if they don't REALLY need it, to something that basically everyone would take because you cannot go wrong with a costless +70% global recharge. It would, for all practical purposes, become the new Stamina.

 

[Pale_Enchantress]

I  Do not like  This idea at all. Well hasten is incredibly popular and many builds want it I feel it's in a good place. So many builds Have been made to work around the use of this power That changing it would have a rather drastic impact On things.

[Myrmidon]

23 minutes ago, Pale_Enchantress said:

I  Do not like  This idea at all. Well hasten is incredibly popular and many builds want it I feel it's in a good place. So many builds Have been made to work around the use of this power That changing it would have a rather drastic impact On things.

Look on the bright side. A Hasten change would also likely give us another Respec!

[Myrmidon]

13 hours ago, GM Sijin said:

No, except by enabling you to use them more frequently. It DOES consume 15% endurance when its effect ends, though.

 

To answer the original question: Hasten is significantly overbudgeted for an auto power and its effects would be reduced to, likely around 15-25% from 70%. That or a hefty endurance reduction penalty (or other negative) would be applied to balance the power, either of which could dramatically reduce its appeal. Without the breakpoint of 'permahasten' there might also be a bit of a shift in how much recharge recharge-focused builds go for.

Pass. Leave it like it is, please. 

[DSorrow]

Rather than making Hasten an inherent because most people take it anyway I'd look at making some other power pools more useful. Right now power pools are pretty much a non-choice factor when you make a character: pretty much everyone wants Hasten and travel power plus Fighting and/or Leadership. Some builds might want Medicine, but overall we have 3 power pools (Fighting, Leadership, Speed) that are much more useful than the rest of the utility pools and once you add a travel power as a fourth, nobody has space for Presence or Concealment. 

[Zepp]

As a point of reference, there are currently auto powers that provide +recharge.  Time Lord and Quickness, for example, provide 20%, whereas clicks from primaries and secondaries tend to provide 50%. These powers provide other benefits as well, but these numbers suggest that an auto (no-click) Hasten would likely be valued at around 28-30%, which would be a huge hit for a number of builds.

[Mischief Manager]

Everyone here has made some interesting replies to this, but tended to shy away from any possible changes...

and i get that...i really do, change is hard.

but this reply is going to be about possible changes to hasten that will make it more interesting and possibly less/more useful to current builds.

assuming these are possible at all....

 

auto-power options:

1) stays in pool, needs to be picked. instead of 70% with 15 cost at effect end, its bonus is 35%

2) stays in pool, needs to be picked. instead of 70% with 15 cost at effect end, its bonus is 50% but

has a constant end related downside ie: so much -recovery.

not sure what purpose the base slot would serve 1st case, 2nd case could lower the -recovery debuff partially

also with change it moves to a different slot in the pool

 

alternate non-auto-power option: stays in pool, instead of 70% with 15 effect end cost, its a toggle and works similarly

to phaseshift 30s on and 30s off and cost is around 1.5/s with a bonus of 50% and CANNOT be slotted for end reduction.

also has a 90s cooldown that can be reduced.

also moved to a different slot in the pool.

 

feel free to discuss, and have a nice day/night

Edited August 15, 2019 by Mischief Manager

[Zepp]

As I have stated, based on existing powers, making it an auto power would likely reduce the CD bonus to below 30% (GM Sijin mentioned 15-25%).

 

Having it as a toggle would likely reduce it to 35-40% and probably have an endurance cost per second that is actually higher than the current crash.

 

I think it is fine as it is, and changing it would lead to huge shifts in market behavior as well as nerfing certain powersets, such as Illusion Control, while being a huge boon to a lot of melee sets that don't actually need perma-hasten, but waste slots to get it to prevent the roller-coastery performance of a build that has massive shifts in cooldown rate.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

While I personally dont see Hasten as a must have on every build, really only on toggle light builds typically, I do on some level agree that because Hasten is in general seen as a must have power it perhaps need to be tweeked to make it less a must take power to the masses.

 

But really imo if all your after is the equiv of old perma hasten, just build up 70% from set bonuses and ignore the speed pool if hasten was all that you really wanted. most lvl 50 builds have more then that from 5 purple sets to 5 parts and 5 lotg.. So I already see old hasten as easily made an inherent aspect of a build.