Shield Defense's "Active Defense"

[Vanden]

38 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

So, you justify the demeaning and belittling remarks because of "this statement?" So, that makes it okay?

What's with the scare quotes around "this statement?" I only directly quoted the things you posted. And yeah, it's no surprise people would wonder aloud if you're trolling when you make such contradictory, off-the-wall claims.

 

43 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

If you'd READ through and understood the context of which I was posting about, leveling not END game.

One or two slots to put into Active Defense is an easy price to pay when leveling. 2 recharge SOs is all it takes to perma it, 3 if you want a buffer for when you get hit by slows.

[Purrfekshawn]

Well it could receive same treatment, as Sentinels' Super Reflexes set (two anti-mez powers - Practiced Brawler and Master Brawler), one is click, another is toggle, but you can take only one of these powers, although stuff like that may be pretty complicated to do...

[DSorrow]

Stryker, with all due respect, you would probably have a better discussion about your suggestion if it didn't appear that it's a thing you personally dislike poorly reframed as a balance concern. Some of your arguments such as the ones Vanden pointed out are contradictory and objectively false. You only acknowledge comments that agree with you while collectively dismissing any that disagree:

On 9/1/2019 at 11:41 AM, StrykerGaming said:

I read all the replies here. I know all the stories and information

 

1 hour ago, StrykerGaming said:

It doesn't matter now anyway. I've found out what I wanted to know through all the hubris and noise.

Additionally, you don't discuss any of the pros of having AD as a clicky, nor any of the offensive bonuses Shield and SR provide to make up for the few seconds worth of DPS interruption every 1-2mins. Finally, you appear somewhat confrontational and unwilling to change your stance when people validly criticize your arguments, so it's not a huge stretch of imagination to come up with the idea that you're looking for a conflict. While personally I don't agree with the people calling you a troll, the rest of the discussion is not a "sad testament about the community", it's just people easily criticizing the inconsistencies and false claims in your rather weak argument. 

 

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, StrykerGaming said:

I'll make sure to warn people about interacting on the forums, on my stream, if this is how things will continue.

 

If you’re streaming about City being back, then I suggest that you have a look at this thread.

 

[Steampunkette]

The first post to contain the word Troll in this thread is Stryker Gaming's.

 

The second post is Vanden's, in which he comments on the word.

 

No one else has used it. Or if they have, it was Mod-Smited before I could see it and I trawl this subforum more than any others (Because I love suggestions and also make some and have a marginally deeper understanding of the game's systems than some people). No one has said that you 'Lack Experience', either. Or 'Not Caring'. Honestly it looks like all three of these statements are inferences on your part into other people's statements.

 

As to demeaning and belittling... You made a big posts in response to several informative posts in a completely dismissive manner. "I've read your posts, it doesn't change the fact" (paraphrasing). Then you went on to express why it was a personal problem for your specific playstyle where you like to keep Destiny on Auto and can't take Shield Charge, Lightning Rod, and Spring Attack for... some inexplicable reason. You cite Acrobatics but I've never taken that power in my life and I've played Shield Tankers and Brutes to 50 with basically no problem.

 

People said "It's reasonably easy to adapt" and your response was "I've heard that before, but the game should change to suit my style."

 

Also you threw out a bunch of "You -can't-" statements when in fact "You can". 

 

At least that's why my second post in the thread was less courteous than the first. But it still wasn't what I would consider belittling or demeaning. Just curt. 

 

In the context of leveling: Click Defenses play marginally differently from Toggle Defenses. They require a fraction more awareness and provide some interesting benefits to the cost. So, again, /Jranger

[StrykerGaming]

2 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

If you’re streaming about City being back, then I suggest that you have a look at this thread.

 

Yes I am and will continue to do so. I have too much invested in this game for my channel. And until such time that I receive notice from Twitch to stop, I will continue. I'm not the only one doing so either. BTW, Twitch is supporting CoH now by bringing back one of the title images (albeit for City of Rogues) used with the title of the game. I made my thoughts known in that thread from the first day it was started. No one from HC has said otherwise to my pronouncement on continuing to stream this game.

[StrykerGaming]

3 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

The first post to contain the word Troll in this thread is Stryker Gaming's.

 

The second post is Vanden's, in which he comments on the word.

 

No one else has used it. Or if they have, it was Mod-Smited before I could see it and I trawl this subforum more than any others (Because I love suggestions and also make some and have a marginally deeper understanding of the game's systems than some people). No one has said that you 'Lack Experience', either. Or 'Not Caring'. Honestly it looks like all three of these statements are inferences on your part into other people's statements.

 

As to demeaning and belittling... You made a big posts in response to several informative posts in a completely dismissive manner. "I've read your posts, it doesn't change the fact" (paraphrasing). Then you went on to express why it was a personal problem for your specific playstyle where you like to keep Destiny on Auto and can't take Shield Charge, Lightning Rod, and Spring Attack for... some inexplicable reason. You cite Acrobatics but I've never taken that power in my life and I've played Shield Tankers and Brutes to 50 with basically no problem.

 

People said "It's reasonably easy to adapt" and your response was "I've heard that before, but the game should change to suit my style."

 

Also you threw out a bunch of "You -can't-" statements when in fact "You can". 

 

At least that's why my second post in the thread was less courteous than the first. But it still wasn't what I would consider belittling or demeaning. Just curt. 

 

In the context of leveling: Click Defenses play marginally differently from Toggle Defenses. They require a fraction more awareness and provide some interesting benefits to the cost. So, again, /Jranger

You might want to re-read from the beginning by starting here:

Then you will see where it started with "troll."

 

This is where Burnt Toast inferred I was trolling (I'm not sure..., same as saying, "This has to be a trolling post.").

 

BTW, you might want to read exactly what my posts stated not what YOU WANT it to say. If I were being dismissive, I'd said something to the toon of "You're post has no specific merits and I'll just ignore it." That is a dismissive statement. You can try and twist my words into the narrative that you want, but it does not change the context of which I was speaking of.

 

What YOU and everyone else have FAILED TO REALIZE is that I did not mention I deleted said toon with Shield Defense. I found out what I wanted to know and how to do it. As I stated in a previous post that this issue was during leveling NOT endgame.

 

 

@GM SijinI made my thoughts known on what I felt about this as a click and not a toggle and believe it would better server as a toggle. The responses speak for themselves. Apparently, I'm too stupid, unskilled, do not care, a troll, lack the attention span, or need to learn to play for asking about this power and suggesting to make it a toggle. What's next? Being banned for questioning another power and sharing my thoughts on something I don't like?

Edited September 9, 2019 by StrykerGaming

[yeetsman]

lol bro u dont have to say out loudur being going to ignore everything that doesnt agree w u ... its enough that u just ignore all criticism.. actions speak louder than words etc

 

also lol bro take a chill pill or go play the victim on ur stream... this aint the place to try n escalate the situation lol ...

[Steampunkette]

Ohhh... Yeah. I have Burnt Toast on Ignore because he's a troll. XD No wonder I didn't see him talking about it.

 

And nah, friendo. "I've read your posts and they don't change the fact" is a dismissive reaction. It collectively dismisses all of those posts without directly addressing any of them. And all of them addressed the "Burden" you put forward by describing the benefits thereof, the ease of dealing with it, and the fact that it creates a soft separation between different playstyles which encourages variety.

 

It's not specifically being INSULTING while dismissing it, sure. But it's still dismissive. It's still you deciding not to address those posts and their points to instead hammer on about how you have a problem with click defenses.

 

And you're still presenting yourself as the victim of some massive angry backlash. It isn't angry, and it isn't massive. It's one guy being rude and other people explaining, in detail, why they disagree with your argument. In large part because chunks of it are factually incorrect.

 

[GM Tempest]

Please maintain civility, or I will maintain it for you. 

Edited September 9, 2019 by CR Tempest

[MunkiLord]

36 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

YI made my thoughts known on what I felt about this as a click and not a toggle and believe it would better server as a toggle. The responses speak for themselves. Apparently, I'm too stupid, unskilled, do not care, a troll, lack the attention span, or need to learn to play for asking about this power and suggesting to make it a toggle. What's next? Being banned for questioning another power and sharing my thoughts on something I don't like?

You haven't given people that prefer it as a click any compelling reason for it to change. Every issue you have described we have all said how we approach it and many of us like it as is. What reason do we have to support such a change?

[StrykerGaming]

4 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Ohhh... Yeah. I have Burnt Toast on Ignore because he's a troll. XD No wonder I didn't see him talking about it.

 

And nah, friendo. "I've read your posts and they don't change the fact" is a dismissive reaction. It collectively dismisses all of those posts without directly addressing any of them. And all of them addressed the "Burden" you put forward by describing the benefits thereof, the ease of dealing with it, and the fact that it creates a soft separation between different playstyles which encourages variety.

 

It's not specifically being INSULTING while dismissing it, sure. But it's still dismissive. It's still you deciding not to address those posts and their points to instead hammer on about how you have a problem with click defenses.

 

And you're still presenting yourself as the victim of some massive angry backlash. It isn't angry, and it isn't massive. It's one guy being rude and other people explaining, in detail, why they disagree with your argument. In large part because chunks of it are factually incorrect.

 

Do you understand what "context" means? If you truly do not, please refer to Websters to understand how and why it is important, especially in communicating. Your selective editing or quoting is a manipulation of what I stated, so for context of my statement, here it is in its entirety to refute your assertion that my statement was dismissive.

"I read all the replies here. I know all the stories and information. It does not change the fact that this important defensive power has to manually activated either before or after you've been mezzed." Notice the difference? The subject of this statement is not in the first 2 sentences. It is in the last sentence that you selectively edited to fit your narrative. I've highlighted this for your viewing pleasure.

 

Steampunkette, if I were to play the victim card, I can assure you that it would be a profanity laced diatribe on those posts. I have not and will not fall into that trap. Pointing out what is being said to me or something else is not "playing the victim card." Not even close. It does not even come close to the meaning of such an act. The fact that I or anyone else, who posted what I did original and made replies receives undue heat for it. I find it laughable that you and others are saying "I'm playing the victim" because I point out the veiled ugliness in some of the replies. That's truly astounding in my book. Give those a pass while hammering me for it. Nice. Hypocrisy much?

[GM Tempest]

Stay on topic or I will be removing the offending posts and warning the person going off topic. 

[StrykerGaming]

3 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

You haven't given people that prefer it as a click any compelling reason for it to change. Every issue you have described we have all said how we approach it and many of us like it as is. What reason do we have to support such a change?

At this point, why bother? Those who championing the click power are tone deaf to changing it including a GM. As I stated in a reply earlier, I found out the information I was looking for and how I can fix this issue for me until I hit 50 with this toon. One thing for sure though, hell will freeze over before I offer another opinion or thoughts on something on these boards.

[MunkiLord]

5 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

At this point, why bother? Those who championing the click power are tone deaf to changing it including a GM. As I stated in a reply earlier, I found out the information I was looking for and how I can fix this issue for me until I hit 50 with this toon. One thing for sure though, hell will freeze over before I offer another opinion or thoughts on something on these boards.

You haven't provided a compelling reason to change it. Many of us like it as is, and if people are going to support such a change, they will need to be convinced. And another person not liking something is not a compelling reason to change it to people that do like that something.

[GM Capocollo]

13 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

At this point, why bother? Those who championing the click power are tone deaf to changing it including a GM.

 

Homecoming Team follows the principle of the "cottage rule" that Cryptic/Paragon established during live service.  The crux of the principle is that the powers devs will need a very good reason to fundamentally change the primary way a power works (as opposed to numbers tweaks or secondary effects) because players who have chosen the power expect it to operate consistently in the future.  I don't think "I personally don't like active mitigation abilities" crosses that threshold.

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by GM Capocollo

[StrykerGaming]

53 minutes ago, GM Capocollo said:

 

Homecoming Team follows the principle of the "cottage rule" that Cryptic/Paragon established during live service.  The crux of the principle is that the powers devs will need a very good reason to fundamentally change the primary way a power works (as opposed to numbers tweaks or secondary effects) because players who have chosen the power expect it to operate consistently in the future.  I don't think "I personally don't like active mitigation abilities" crosses that threshold.

 

How about this then. There are 11 defensive sets. Of those, 2 do not have knockback protection (Dark and Fire). Of the other nine, 2 have manual activation (Super Reflexes and Shield Defense). The remaining 7, excluding Electric Armor, have toggled protection against mezz/knockback. Only Electric Armor has "Auto protection with 'Grounded.' My assertion is, "... that this important defensive power has to manually activated either before or after you've been mezzed." When 6 of the 11 do not as they are toggled on, Electric Armor doesn't count in that since it is an automatic power. We have 2 defensive sets that offer no knockback protection whatsoever (Fire and Dark Armor). Ice Armor has it and mezz/knockback protection with 'Wet Ice.'

 

This isn't about "I personally don't like active mitigation abilities," it's about a vitally important ability on two defensive sets that require manual activation while 7(9) of them do not. The 3:30 cooldown is painful, especially at low levels where you have to invest 2 or more slots into it just to make it manageable. That still leaves a window open for being vulnerable. For a tank player that is painful and can cause a party to wipe at the most inopportune time if they are mezzed or knockback or controlled in some form or fashion and not able to break it for whatever reason. 

 

Changing it from manual click to a toggle does not change the play style, it would enhance play allowing the player(s) to concentrate more on the role and doing their bit. 7(9) powers have this ability (really 6(8) if you don't count Electric Armor). Again, 2 have NO knockback protection at all. That means 63.63% of the defensive power sets are toggled mezz/knockback, 18.18% are manually activated, and 18.18% have no knockback protection yet they have the toggled mezz protection. That means 81.81% of the defensive abilities all have toggled mezz protection while 2 do not.

 

I find it troubling that people have to use 3 IO recharges plus whatever else they can get from LOTG Global Recharge +7.5% enhancement to get it down where they have it overlapping for 30 seconds. This takes away from a true min/maxed build when they have to allocate 2 or more slots into a power that cannot slot an enhancement set to achieve this or more as mentioned previously.

 

What it comes down to is 7(9) of these abilities toggled for mezz and/or knockback protection, 2 are manual. That means those 9 have a clear advantage over Super Reflexes and Shield Defense in regards to a defensive ability that requires no manual activation (click) as they are toggled on. That is the glaring truth of this. Toggled protection is an advantage over manual activation.

 

You want to have a reason for changing it to a toggle OR lowering the cooldown, parity between these defensive sets or the lack thereof. Until such time, I will Frankenstein my 'Active Defense' for my Electric Melee/Shield Defense Brute to having this power on all the time. From my experience as a developer, I have to believe that this is a situation the original developers did not intend for players to do.

Edited September 9, 2019 by StrykerGaming

[MunkiLord]

15 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

I find it troubling that people have to use 3 IO recharges plus whatever else they can get from LOTG Global Recharge +7.5% enhancement to get it down where they have it overlapping for 30 seconds. This takes away from a true min/maxed build when they have to allocate 2 or more slots into a power that cannot slot an enhancement set to achieve this or more as mentioned previously.

I disagree here. A min/maxed will almost always have enough recharge to solve this issue without devoting any resources to it whatsoever other than the base slot. Depending on the amount of recharge that slot may still be a recharge reduction, but in many cases that won't even be necessary and one could instead just use and endurance reduction enhancement. Basically in a min/maxed build this is an issue that is solved all on its own.

 

I have no problem with the recharge being shorter, or the effects lasting longer, so long as the overall end cost doesn't raise sharply as a result.

24 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

What it comes down to is 7(9) of these abilities toggled for mezz and/or knockback protection, 2 are manual. That means those 9 have a clear advantage over Super Reflexes and Shield Defense in regards to a defensive ability that requires no manual activation (click) as they are toggled on. That is the glaring truth of this. Toggled protection is an advantage over manual activation.

 

You want to have a reason for changing it to a toggle OR lowering the cooldown, parity between these defensive sets or the lack thereof. Until such time, I will Frankenstein my 'Active Defense' for my Electric Melee/Shield Defense Brute to having this power on all the time. From my experience as a developer, I have to believe that this is a situation the original developers did not intend for players to do.

SR and Shield have better DDR than other sets(Invul may get close to Shield), and they have the easiest time soft capping their defenses, so they have their own advantages. Plus Shield gets AAO and Shield Charge, so once could make the argument these are intentional trade offs. Especially with a set like Shield that was added years after the game started and SR had click mez protection for a long time already.

[DSorrow]

7 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

This isn't about "I personally don't like active mitigation abilities," it's about a vitally important ability on two defensive sets that require manual activation while 7(9) of them do not.

7/9 defensive power sets are vulnerable to running out of Endurance when it comes to their mez protection while two of them are not. With active mitigation you keep an eye on its recharge to make sure it's on, with toggles you keep an eye on Endurance to make sure it doesn't drop. 7/9 defensive sets are also unable to stack their mez protection.

8 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

The 3:30 cooldown is painful, especially at low levels where you have to invest 2 or more slots into it just to make it manageable.

This is probably the only part of your argument that I agree with, it is annoying at lower levels because it can't be made perma until SOs. The additional two slots aren't a problem, though, if you look at the big picture. To maximize your Defensive potential, /SD only needs to slot Deflection, Battle Agility and True Grit. Most people would also spend slots on Shield Charge, but it still leaves Phalanx Fighting, Grant Cover, Against All Odds, and OWTS that are all typically left with their base slot, leading to a much smaller total slot usage compared to many other defensive powersets even with the two slots in AD.

15 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

I find it troubling that people have to use 3 IO recharges plus whatever else they can get from LOTG Global Recharge +7.5% enhancement to get it down where they have it overlapping for 30 seconds. This takes away from a true min/maxed build when they have to allocate 2 or more slots into a power that cannot slot an enhancement set to achieve this or more as mentioned previously.

AD has a base recharge of 200 seconds with a duration of 120 seconds. To make it perma you need (200/120) - 1 = 0.67 or 67% Recharge enhancement, which is less than most min/maxed builds get from set bonuses alone. If you want a decent 20 second threshold between activations, you need 100% Recharge enhancements or 47% global Rech on top of a single generic 50+5 Rech IO, which again, are petty numbers for any optimized build. Combine this with the overall smaller requirement for slotting in /SD and it's really hard to see why this is a problem for min/maxed builds.

20 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

What it comes down to is 7(9) of these abilities toggled for mezz and/or knockback protection, 2 are manual. That means those 9 have a clear advantage over Super Reflexes and Shield Defense in regards to a defensive ability that requires no manual activation (click) as they are toggled on. That is the glaring truth of this. Toggled protection is an advantage over manual activation.

As has been demonstrated several times in this thread already, it's not a "glaring truth" or in anyway objective that toggled mez protections are better than clicky ones. Clicky mez protection comes with advantages such as:

• being able to stack the mez protection
• being able to be activated before a fight so they don't drain your Endurance during it
• being able to be stacked for secondary effects (especially notable for SD)
• less susceptible to End Drain effects than their toggled counterparts

22 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

You want to have a reason for changing it to a toggle OR lowering the cooldown, parity between these defensive sets or the lack thereof.

Mechanical differences != lack of parity. AD comes with the most CC coverage (Fear and Confuse on top of your regular menu), on top of which SD has Shield Charge, team buffs (Grant Cover) and self +DMG, so it could just as easily be argued that either those should be removed or added to every other set for "lack of parity".

 

I hate to say it, but besides clicky mez protection being clunky in the levels up to 22 (which I don't think is a huge issue), your argument still boils down to "I don't like this mechanic".

[Steampunkette]

2 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

How about this then. There are 11 defensive sets. Of those, 2 do not have knockback protection (Dark and Fire). Of the other nine, 2 have manual activation (Super Reflexes and Shield Defense). The remaining 7, excluding Electric Armor, have toggled protection against mezz/knockback. Only Electric Armor has "Auto protection with 'Grounded.' My assertion is, "... that this important defensive power has to manually activated either before or after you've been mezzed." When 6 of the 11 do not as they are toggled on, Electric Armor doesn't count in that since it is an automatic power. We have 2 defensive sets that offer no knockback protection whatsoever (Fire and Dark Armor). Ice Armor has it and mezz/knockback protection with 'Wet Ice.'

 

This isn't about "I personally don't like active mitigation abilities," it's about a vitally important ability on two defensive sets that require manual activation while 7(9) of them do not. The 3:30 cooldown is painful, especially at low levels where you have to invest 2 or more slots into it just to make it manageable. That still leaves a window open for being vulnerable. For a tank player that is painful and can cause a party to wipe at the most inopportune time if they are mezzed or knockback or controlled in some form or fashion and not able to break it for whatever reason. 

 

Changing it from manual click to a toggle does not change the play style, it would enhance play allowing the player(s) to concentrate more on the role and doing their bit. 7(9) powers have this ability (really 6(8) if you don't count Electric Armor). Again, 2 have NO knockback protection at all. That means 63.63% of the defensive power sets are toggled mezz/knockback, 18.18% are manually activated, and 18.18% have no knockback protection yet they have the toggled mezz protection. That means 81.81% of the defensive abilities all have toggled mezz protection while 2 do not.

 

I find it troubling that people have to use 3 IO recharges plus whatever else they can get from LOTG Global Recharge +7.5% enhancement to get it down where they have it overlapping for 30 seconds. This takes away from a true min/maxed build when they have to allocate 2 or more slots into a power that cannot slot an enhancement set to achieve this or more as mentioned previously.

 

What it comes down to is 7(9) of these abilities toggled for mezz and/or knockback protection, 2 are manual. That means those 9 have a clear advantage over Super Reflexes and Shield Defense in regards to a defensive ability that requires no manual activation (click) as they are toggled on. That is the glaring truth of this. Toggled protection is an advantage over manual activation.

 

You want to have a reason for changing it to a toggle OR lowering the cooldown, parity between these defensive sets or the lack thereof. Until such time, I will Frankenstein my 'Active Defense' for my Electric Melee/Shield Defense Brute to having this power on all the time. From my experience as a developer, I have to believe that this a situation the original developers did not intend for players to do.

Lemme flip this argument and see what you think.

 

Only 2 out of the 11 Defensive sets have Clickable Mez Protection. Every Toggle Power has to be activated before you get mezzed. And if you get End-Drained you're completely screwed because you can't click the toggle while mezzed to break free even if your endurance recovers. Therefore all the weaker Toggle Based Powers should be converted to Clicks. Almost every group that drains endurance (Freakshow, Malta, Carnival of Shadows, even the Clockwork!) also brings with them powerful control effects. This puts Toggle Based Mez Protection on it's back foot -immediately- against not only consistent leveling threats (You fight Clockwork up 'til around 20 and then immediately face Freakshow for almost the entire rest of the game) But high tier threats, also since Malta and Carnies making up a -ton- of 35+ high level content! Even some of the "Special Zone" content, like the Rikti Warzone, provides enemies which screw up anyone who relies on Endurance for their Mez Protection thanks to the Curses that Vanguard put on you (Which requires you to buy a separate temporary power with only -5- uses!!!)

 

This would still allow Toggle Players to slot their Mez Protection powers for additional resistance (or defense) but would make the Recharge that is bound up in all of the Resist Damage and Defense Buff Sets something that is -actually useful- for those powers instead of being wasted values or easily skipped IOs in the individual sets.

 

It would also help to balance some of the differences between the Click and Toggle sets, since most players would put their Mez Protection on Autofire instead of Hasten or Destiny powers that can really skew the damage output of the defensive set characters higher and makes the defensive sets with self-healing or +MaxHP effects -significantly- more powerful!

 

Yeah it's only two powersets that use click powers. There's also only three or four powersets which distribute their protection across multiple powers. There's also only two who have Tier 9 powers that ignore recharge rate changes. There's also only 4 who have a Tier 9 power that doesn't have a Crash. And Half of them don't have a Damaging Aura effect. And only one has PBAoE Stun and Fear Toggles. We could go on and on listing the differences between the sets and trying to figure out which ones are the "Least like the Others" (Regen. Regen is least like the others)

 

None of this is a good reason to change things. Yeah, if I fight CoT at low levels Madness Mages with click defenses will lock me down, sometimes, or if I aim for Psychics and Tsoo in the high end. Knives to a lesser degree, 'cause those damn caltrops! But Toggle Mez Protection has it's own dangers leveling, as well, and at the high end Malta screws Toggled Mez -hard- unless you can stack End Protection.

 

Each option has it's own benefits and downfalls.

[Rylas]

4 hours ago, StrykerGaming said:

How about this then. There are 11 defensive sets. Of those, 2 do not have knockback protection (Dark and Fire). Of the other nine, 2 have manual activation (Super Reflexes and Shield Defense). The remaining 7, excluding Electric Armor, have toggled protection against mezz/knockback. Only Electric Armor has "Auto protection with 'Grounded.' My assertion is, "... that this important defensive power has to manually activated either before or after you've been mezzed." When 6 of the 11 do not as they are toggled on, Electric Armor doesn't count in that since it is an automatic power. We have 2 defensive sets that offer no knockback protection whatsoever (Fire and Dark Armor). Ice Armor has it and mezz/knockback protection with 'Wet Ice.'

 

This isn't about "I personally don't like active mitigation abilities," it's about a vitally important ability on two defensive sets that require manual activation while 7(9) of them do not. The 3:30 cooldown is painful, especially at low levels where you have to invest 2 or more slots into it just to make it manageable. That still leaves a window open for being vulnerable. For a tank player that is painful and can cause a party to wipe at the most inopportune time if they are mezzed or knockback or controlled in some form or fashion and not able to break it for whatever reason. 

 

Changing it from manual click to a toggle does not change the play style, it would enhance play allowing the player(s) to concentrate more on the role and doing their bit. 7(9) powers have this ability (really 6(8) if you don't count Electric Armor). Again, 2 have NO knockback protection at all. That means 63.63% of the defensive power sets are toggled mezz/knockback, 18.18% are manually activated, and 18.18% have no knockback protection yet they have the toggled mezz protection. That means 81.81% of the defensive abilities all have toggled mezz protection while 2 do not.

Something to bear in mind, is that all sets have their "weaknesses" and varied developments during level progression. Not that I would call click mez protection a weakness. So far in this thread, I've seen more strengths listed for it, and no weaknesses that seem unique to SD or SR. If spending slots in recharge is a weakness, then so is slotting for KB protection in Fire Armor and Dark Armor. But that's not really a huge issue. If the problem is that you won't have perma-AD until SOs, well, most powers don't reach their full usefulness until SOs. Especially armor powers. But the strengths listed in the thread so far are good strengths to have. I've been end-drained out of mez protection plenty of times. And with end-game content like Malta, it's all too easy to fall victim to it. Especially if you're the one jumping into the action first. You don't seem to be addressing these strengths when making your argument that AD has a bad mechanic. 

 

Another thing to remember is that armor powers come in 3 forms. Auto, toggle, and click. And they follow respectively in strength: good, better, and best. Electric only has partial KD protection with its auto power. Toggles are click and forget. Clickies get stronger protection and can stack (useful in higher difficulty content). Though, SR doesn't get as many protections as SD and it's arguable that maybe it should receive more, but it's still stackable. Sure, you have to invest a slot or two for recharge, but again, that doesn't really set it apart in any meaningful way. 

 

Also, SD and SR get the highest defense-based powers in the game and reach soft-cap numbers very easily. And they require minimal investment to make the Incarnate soft-cap. On top of that, they receive the strongest numbers for DDR. If their biggest drawback is that you have to pay attention to your mez protection, that doesn't really sound like an awful trade off. 

 

Do you have any other arguments to change it? So far, I'm not convinced by "more sets use toggles than clicks". That's just confusing frequency as a standard. 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Rylas
gramar edits galore

[GM Sijin]

Some facts to help steer the discussion to objectivity rather than subjectivity. Most/all of this has been brought up before, if perhaps with less specific details.

All defensive set active mitigation have 120 second duration and 200 second recharge. This means that:

• 2 even level SOs makes it nearly permanent: 1.716+(200/1.666) = ~121.764
• 2 level 35 IOs makes it permanent: 1.716+(200/1.696) = ~119.641
• 1 level 50+5 IO and another 16% global recharge make it permanent (IE: 1 LotG and 1 very rare +10% set bonus or 2 +8.75% recharge set bonuses, or any number of other combinations)
• The power can be double stacked permanently with ~244% total recharge, so if you have permahasten and two recharge in Active Defense you have it more than double stackable, meaning you have over a full minute to remember to refresh your active mitigation before it drops.
• The power can be triple stacked at max recharge, almost permanently (200/5)+1.716 = 41.716, 120/41.716 = ~2.88 (~5.2 seconds downtime on third stack)
• Low level concerns? A level 12+ tanker can perma this with 5 slots, and nearly perma with 4, using even-level recharge DOs. Is this a little build-prohibitive? Sure, long term, but if your concern is not getting CC'd ever at low levels it's a viable temporary solution you can respec out of later. Lower level enemies in general have less crowd control, so you shouldn't need 100% uptime in most situations. Knockback can be a little troublesome in some enemy groups, but if that's too much of a concern I'd like to introduce you to a little something called Steadfast Protection, available as early as level 7, which you can just slap in Deflection and unslot later. It should cover 90+% of knockback situations you'll encounter pre-22.

Active Defense itself grants fear, repel and confusion protection on top of the "standards", with a hefty amount of defense debuff resistance that's made more valuable by it being a click power. Turning this power into a toggle removes the ability for shield defense to hit the cap for defense debuff resistance and severely limits its protection against this debuff, even if not triple stacked: 17.3 (battle agility) + 17.3 (grant cover) + 21.63 (active defense) = 56.23% (one stack, max value if changed to a toggle) + 21.63 = 77.86% (two stacks, achievable self-buffed with 100% uptime, comparable to non-elude SR) + 21.63 = 99.49% (95%) (three stacks, overcapped). On top of this, it loses the higher-than-everyone-else-using-toggle-powers protection to mezzes if stacking it.

 

The endurance cost/second values are as follows:

• No recharge: ~0.052
• Permanent: ~0.087
• Doublestacked: ~0.173
• Max recharge: ~0.249

Compare this to the standard 0.26 end/sec of defensive armor toggles.

 

Active mitigation cannot be disabled prior to its duration running out. Toggles can be dropped due to endurance issues.

Active mitigation can be activated while mezzed, toggles cannot.

 

The disadvantages? You spend 1.716 seconds every time you click the ability instead of just once while activating, and you have to remember to click the ability (or, presumably, something else since it might be more important to have this on auto than any other click). Also the endurance cost, while generally significantly smaller over time, comes in one bigger chunk which can cause problems if you don't manage your endurance when it's time to refresh.

 

I'm not sure, given everything above, the toggles have any actual advantage over Active Defense at all. In fact, I'm pretty sure for Shield Defense in particular it would be damaging to the set's potential to turn it into a toggle given what you trade for the convenience of not having to remember to click. Less convenient does not equate to less effective unless that is the only difference. As has been reiterated a number of times, it isn't.

 

If anything this topic has convinced me that Practiced Brawler could maybe use a little defense debuff resistance added to it as well.

Edited September 9, 2019 by GM Sijin
Forgot a disadvantage

[Rylas]

22 minutes ago, GM Sijin said:

If anything this topic has convinced me that Practiced Brawler could maybe use a little defense debuff resistance added to it as well.

Oh snap! Called it!

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, GM Sijin said:

if anything this topic has convinced me that Practiced Brawler could maybe use a little defense debuff resistance added to it as well.

 

Yes, please.

[MunkiLord]

But why? Doesn't SR already cap DDR?