The Twinshot Trap

[SaintD]

Did anyone else do this? Come back after almost a decade, get given Twinshot as a contact, and start doing her missions without remembering that it's the absolute worst thing imaginable?

You got me, you little b****. You got me. It took so long for the memory to fade, but you got me once again. I finally rolled a new toon that clicked for me, started playing for the first time in forever, relived the magic, couldn't believe it wasn't nostalgia and the game is actually awesome andohnowaitit'sTwinshot'smissions.

Turn off the servers. We're done. Twinshot is still here. We'll boot it all back up in another five, see if she goes away or something.

Note: I played up to 'rescue Manticore', one of the doors glitched out and refused to open, then started banging my head on the desk and cursing the memory of Twinshot all over again.
Note note: Dillo is cool though. We can keep Dillo.

[Zodai]

*hoorb* !

 

As someone who never got to play live, twinshot is 'oh god I hate them' in more a funny way than a frustrating way.  I'm fine with the content itself though replaying it on every new char would def be too repetitive.

 

*hoorb*

[boggo2300]

Personally I think we need to petition the dev's to move Twitshot to Praetoria, that way no-one will ever encounter the annoyance that is the Stoopid Stars

[MetaVileTerror]

I mean, all things considered, I found Dr. Graves arcs to be FAR more awful.  The writing robs the player of any agency of motivation or emotion, and casts your character as an idiot thug with anger issues.  Who even wrote that?

[boggo2300]

Charlie Sheen?

[Herotu]

2 hours ago, SaintD said:

Did anyone else do this? Come back after almost a decade, get given Twinshot as a contact, and start doing her missions without remembering that it's the absolute worst thing imaginable?

You got me, you little b****. You got me. It took so long for the memory to fade, but you got me once again. I finally rolled a new toon that clicked for me, started playing for the first time in forever, relived the magic, couldn't believe it wasn't nostalgia and the game is actually awesome andohnowaitit'sTwinshot'smissions.

Turn off the servers. We're done. Twinshot is still here. We'll boot it all back up in another five, see if she goes away or something.

Note: I played up to 'rescue Manticore', one of the doors glitched out and refused to open, then started banging my head on the desk and cursing the memory of Twinshot all over again.
Note note: Dillo is cool though. We can keep Dillo.

I don't know what you're on about. Twinshot's missions are some of the best in the game. Added late in the game's development, they actually knew what they were doing when they designed them, instead of all the grindy crap that constitutes the vast majority of the missions designed early in the game's life.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Herotu
Love me.

[boggo2300]

Really? I hate them with a passion, only Fusionette is more annoying than Twitshot

[Apparition]

Twinshot's mission arcs would be far more enjoyable if I could punch Flambeaux in the face after every mission. 

[DR_Mechano]

The arcs, to me, always felt like they're to be played through exactly once since, what people forget is, they're designed as a massively extended 5-20 tutorial to teach you the basics of the game like "here is how you get around to different zones" "here is how you train up" etc. The only reason I'd go through them more than once is if you REALLY wanted one of the badges as a title. Unfortunately I don't think you can flashback to the later arcs if you've not completed them in order meaning you HAVE to go through all three of them even if you only want the badge for the final arc.

 

The funny thing is by the later arcs you pretty much outclass them and its no wonder you leave them behind for bigger and better things. The only one that actually progresses is Flambeaux who turns into a villain, the rest never graduate to larger threats. Though IIRC they DO turn up in the final story mission of Dark Astoria but then that's basically a 'gather ALL the heroes and villains into one big army' affair.

Edited September 9, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[Leogunner]

I'll agree that the Twins shot arc is rough around the edges but I do like Grym and Dillo. The others are annoying.  Someone boxed in the Dr Graves arc which boggles my mind. 

 

Overall, the arcs are less "Coh-fied" and just a departure from the standard "read this text in the missions or clues tab" fare of the majority of the game. It requires getting into a character role somewhat thrust on you which seems to be asking too much of some. Probably not something you do well every alt, but I think it's worth doing every now and then. It's not the Frostfire arc... 

[Doc_Scorpion]

13 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

The arcs, to me, always felt like they're to be played through exactly once since, what people forget is, they're designed as a massively extended 5-20 tutorial to teach you the basics of the game like "here is how you get around to different zones" "here is how you train up" etc.

And even at that they're massive fail.  By the time they teach you that stuff, your introductory contact has already sent you to other zones.  You've almost certainly died and been to the hospital.  Etc... etc...  The only people who need Twinshot's lame-as-(censored) "tutorials" are those who've powerleveled to 5-9...  And how many people are going to powerlevel only as far as "just barely not a complete n00b" and stop?

If the Twinshot arcs are to be of any use, then they should be the standard "first contact" and then the player is referred to an introductory origin contact.  Even then a lot of the lame-as-(censored) dialog needs to replaced...  all that krep about "cool kids" is meant to warm and inviting, but it's demeaning and insulting.

[Trademarked Name]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

Twinshot's mission arcs would be far more enjoyable if I could punch Flambeaux in the face after every mission. 

You can "arrest" Flambeaux in a couple of Alignment missions, IIRC. They make it sound like she's skirting the line in those, but her motivations, ego-centricities, and outright lack of concern for human lives places her strongly in the Villain category, in my book. 

I'm not sure what all the hate is for Twinshot. She does get you to do all of the Shining Stars dirty work for them, and solve the Manticore mystery and a few other detectiving arcs for them, so they even get a new base and higher prestige with Manticore, and all you get is  lousy badge that says you're an honorary member of the shining stars, like you're some special needs kids or from the make-a-wish foundation. But I don't understand the hate.  Besides word on the street is that you two are an item!

[Jon]

I'm surprised to see hate for the Twinshot arc considering it has more personality in a single mission than like 90% of the content in this entire game lmao

[DR_Mechano]

19 minutes ago, Derekl1963 said:

And even at that they're massive fail.  By the time they teach you that stuff, your introductory contact has already sent you to other zones.  You've almost certainly died and been to the hospital.  Etc... etc...  The only people who need Twinshot's lame-as-(censored) "tutorials" are those who've powerleveled to 5-9...  And how many people are going to powerlevel only as far as "just barely not a complete n00b" and stop?

If the Twinshot arcs are to be of any use, then they should be the standard "first contact" and then the player is referred to an introductory origin contact.  Even then a lot of the lame-as-(censored) dialog needs to replaced...  all that krep about "cool kids" is meant to warm and inviting, but it's demeaning and insulting.

Yeah I never understood why Twinshots initial arc wasn't 1-5 and not 5-9. The stuff they teach you is also covered in the tutorial. In fact the regular tutorials (especially the original contaminated/break out one, while it's as bland as cardboard, I feel it does more to teach than the much flashier Galaxy Crisis tutorial but it does so in a wall of text type fashion) actually goes through things like 'the colour of the enemies name denotes whether they're higher or lower level than you and each colour means X', it teaches you how to use inspirations, how to deal with contacts, how to level up. All the stuff the first 5-9 arc covers as you said.

 

Personally I don't mind the dialogue specifically because I always took it as rookie heroes trying to impress and front in order to get into the big leagues. Dillo and Gyrm are fine. Flambeaux is basically there as the 'look we have an alignment system you can interact with later because she turns evil' and this is meant to be her 'start of darkness' so she's MEANT to be selfish and annoying since she represents the type of hero who goes into the hero business for all the wrong reasons.

 

Meanwhile Twinshot is all the 'look how cool we are' to you when it's clear you outpower her by the end of the first arc, let alone the second or third, making her seem like she's using you in order to get better funding for the group.

 

Looking at the villainside version it also makes assumptions about your character from the off. Like that you've never been to Paragon (I mean you just broke out of the Zig...which is in Paragon...and you were probably in there for being a superpowered threat...), that your character doesn't have 'extreme mutations'...when you could be a mutant dog person for all the arc writer knows. The way the arc is written, as mentioned, thrusts the 'thug with anger issues' onto your character much like the heroside thrusts its version of your character onto you.

 

All this shows is that they're meant for people who skipped the tutorial...but still want an actual tutorial...they're clearly written like they should be done from level 1 and not from level 5. If you've done the tutorial you're already doubling up on the things you already knew

Edited September 9, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[Yoru-hime]

The low level content can be a lot worse. Twinshot isn't a masterpiece, but she's not sending you to fight Circle in Perez at level 7 or 8, either. If you want "fun" at those levels, go run the Vahz Wasting Disease arc. That was miserable pre-Inherent Stamina. The old missions also generally have about as much flavor and personality as a slab of drywall. Does anyone remember the story behind Bonefire enough to even have an opinion on it? I know I don't. (Although the reward merits on those older arcs are quite decent if you have the patience for playing at low levels.)

 

Twinshot's general hot-shot mouthiness and treating you like a n00b grates on my nerves (almost as much as Manticore's bottomless Well of Crabbiness), but all in all, it's at least a coherent story and it serves the general purpose of making sure you've touched on all the basics as you head out into the City. I agree that level ranges could use a tweak, let you get the "tutorial" out of the way earlier. 1-15 on the first one, 5-15 on the second and 10-20 on the last, maybe?

 

Flashback-wise, rushing one of these arcs for the badge doesn't take that much longer than "I'm standing on a bloody pier in the middle of nowhere so I'll make you visit me over and over" Alexander. Not really exhilarating, but reasonable. I just usually try to split them out so I'm not doing all three back to back to back. That's way too much for me in a single sitting.

[Heraclea]

31 minutes ago, Yoru-hime said:

The old missions also generally have about as much flavor and personality as a slab of drywall.

Many, yes.  I still have great fondness for the early game Hellions door mission you get from Azuria.  Not so much the mission itself, but the unique map it's set on.  Firemullet ROCKS! 

[Yoru-hime]

7 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

Many, yes.  I still have great fondness for the early game Hellions door mission you get from Azuria.  Not so much the mission itself, but the unique map it's set on.  Firemullet ROCKS! 

Is it the same one that Habashy uses at the end of his arc? I can't remember for the life of me.

 

Personally, I still feel like no story arc is ever really complete until Azuria or MAGI has had something stolen. I suddenly feel the need to go play through Wheel of Destruction for old times' sake. 😄

[VanguardXL]

5 hours ago, MetaVileTerror said:

I mean, all things considered, I found Dr. Graves arcs to be FAR more awful.  The writing robs the player of any agency of motivation or emotion, and casts your character as an idiot thug with anger issues.  Who even wrote that?

That's because City of Villains is actually City of Henchmen. Both Graves and Twinshot are "tutorial" arcs to ease players into the game. Twinshot shows what it's like to be a low-level hero. Graves shows that you'll be someone's minion for your whole career.

[LQT]

7 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

Personally I think we need to petition the dev's to move Twitshot to Praetoria, that way no-one will ever encounter the annoyance that is the Stoopid Stars

Technically she is there. Her Praetorian counterpart is Ricochet.

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ricochet

[MetaVileTerror]

In defense of generic, hollow missions:  At least they don't usually entirely mischaracterize my characters.

 

Seriously.  You don't even need to get in to the branching dialogue trees to avoid writing material which robs the player of agency; which is pretty much the worst offense in writing for a roleplaying game.  The Twinshot arcs aren't nearly as bad for that as the Dr. Graves arcs, but they're certainly not innocent either.

 

On the other side:  Weak, tropey characterization for NPCs is . . . well, bleh . . . but I'm more forgiving of that.  I certainly found Twinshot to be demeaning and condescending FAR more than ever "fun and adventurous."  But when I got to the end of the Galaxy City mission, I actually started to find her rather more interesting and I was prepared to forgive the bland characterization.   My character so blitheringly holding on to the Idiot Ball with both hands, however . . . no thank you.

[Black Zot]

28 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

My character so blitheringly holding on to the Idiot Ball with both hands, however . . . no thank you.

 

This right here is my single biggest gripe about writing in any MMO.  The PC is always a drooling moron in the eyes of quest writers.

 

Before being allowed to work on any game, people should be forced to browse TVTropes for a few days so they realize there's more options for a player character than "idiot hero".

[boggo2300]

1 hour ago, LQT said:

Technically she is there. Her Praetorian counterpart is Ricochet.

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ricochet

True I meant more her despicable annoying story arc

[Heraclea]

4 hours ago, Yoru-hime said:

Is it the same one that Habashy uses at the end of his arc? I can't remember for the life of me.😄

Not familiar with Habashy's arc.  It's a smoky, burning deserted office building with pentagrams and fires on the floor.  And on the walls, posters of the Hellions' favorite bands.

[Eva Destruction]

8 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

The funny thing is by the later arcs you pretty much outclass them and its no wonder you leave them behind for bigger and better things. The only one that actually progresses is Flambeaux who turns into a villain, the rest never graduate to larger threats. Though IIRC they DO turn up in the final story mission of Dark Astoria but then that's basically a 'gather ALL the heroes and villains into one big army' affair.

Some of the others show up in the Redside SSAs.  They're heroes that you fight.

 

5 hours ago, VanguardXL said:

That's because City of Villains is actually City of Henchmen. Both Graves and Twinshot are "tutorial" arcs to ease players into the game. Twinshot shows what it's like to be a low-level hero. Graves shows that you'll be someone's minion for your whole career.

Meanwhile, a lot of the newer redside content tries to give your character more agency, although of course everything has to revert to the status quo by the end of the arc so you don't get to keep any of the cool stuff you stole.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, MetaVileTerror said:

In defense of generic, hollow missions:  At least they don't usually entirely mischaracterize my characters.

They don't characterize the player at all.  It's basically a silent protagonist.

 

2 hours ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Seriously.  You don't even need to get in to the branching dialogue trees to avoid writing material which robs the player of agency; which is pretty much the worst offense in writing for a roleplaying game.  The Twinshot arcs aren't nearly as bad for that as the Dr. Graves arcs, but they're certainly not innocent either.

Meh, I think you're overexaggerating.  I'd say, post examples of arcs that do the opposite of the offenders here and we can compare.

 

As for the Dr. Graves arcs, I'd say look at the story from the perspective of a character that actually fits and rate it vs trying to make your characters as square-iest of square peg villains and trying to fit them through the most roundest slot plots.  And in the realm of CoX, you're not even forced to do it so if it doesn't fit your character, then don't do the arc.

 

2 hours ago, MetaVileTerror said:

On the other side:  Weak, tropey characterization for NPCs is . . . well, bleh . . . but I'm more forgiving of that.  I certainly found Twinshot to be demeaning and condescending FAR more than ever "fun and adventurous."  But when I got to the end of the Galaxy City mission, I actually started to find her rather more interesting and I was prepared to forgive the bland characterization.   My character so blitheringly holding on to the Idiot Ball with both hands, however . . . no thank you.

 

My approach is to figure out why the story doesn't fit my character.  Then I ask why that is and why it completely shatters immersion or undermines the character's theme, backstory or personality.  Because I usually don't make it past the 2nd why.  Why is it demeaning for my character to basically be the shining star of the Shining Stars that basically everyone ends up relying on?  In fact, for my teenage hero-in-training natural scrapper, it was actually rather off putting that these more experienced powered heroes would turn to a teen who is still in school to get his license to do hero work without getting into legal problems...but I consider it more of an "over time" scenario that takes place over the course of a semester and consider the training and tests he's been through so far, maybe it actually fits my character like a glove?

 

I've got a Reverend Tanker, older gentleman, who judges people with a golden hammer of justice who is a prominent spiritual leader in the community and helping these misfits who are from various corners of existence also fills the role of the Shining Stars story (if only a few mental changes to my character's interaction dialog).

 

Personally, I just think a lot of you guys are inflexible.  You don't want to compromise your principals, which is fine, but then complain that things don't conform to said principals, which is impossible.  You can either ignore/not play said arcs, treat them as episodic stories that feature the same character but are unlinked with all other regards, or just be flexible.