Vanden

You've shown that the changes achieve exactly their goal. But you haven't shown that it makes the Tanker too good.

And I'm saying it's not, and the parity is finally there. You've found, what, two? Three? situations where a Tanker could outperform a Brute.

I feel like you're still missing the point that all these things already happened with the Brute and Tanker roles reversed, and the changes on beta are intentionally designed to reverse that and bring parity.

That’s just exercise, man! 😝

Yes! Because just as you can’t say “the entire Brute AT should be nerfed because Spines/Fire Brutes are too good,” you can’t say “the Tanker AT should have its damage cap reduced because of this small handful of powers.” What can we gauge it on? Is there something you know that I don’t that makes you so confident that their popularity will increase to the point that it will be a problem? Or are we both idly speculating and my lack of concern is just as valid as your worry? Nothing you’re saying here can’t be said about Brutes with the damage and survivability aspects swapped. And unfortunately that already happened and we can’t put that cat back in the bag.

They’re still by far the minority. Spines/FA Brutes, the most disproportionally popular Brute build by a wide margin, make up less than 10% of all Brutes made on Homecoming, for example. You can make objective measurements of practicality, but that’s besides the point. Peoples’ opinion on those aspects are not important, because Tankers’ survivability and aggro generation are not being reduced. If these changes go live tomorrow, someone who likes Tankers for their survivability and aggro management and does not follow the beta will log in to their Tanker and find their survivability and aggro generation exactly the same as it was, except in the spots where it’s been improved. I can’t read your mind. If it’s important that certain aspects of your meaning are not misunderstood, don’t leave them implied.

Most people don’t min-max. They don’t look closely at the numbers of powers and put serious thought into the cost/benefit of choosing particular powers. Thus, the changes to these powers won’t greatly affect the prevalence of these powers outside of the main-maxer community, who are just a small portion of the overall community. What some people think about Tanker survivability and aggro management is irrelevant in this instance. The advantages Tankers have over Brutes in those categories do not produce practical differences in actual play. You directed me to the charts and nothing else when I made a post saying that Tankers and Brutes should be compared to each other without incarnate powers, so that’s what I did.

Then what is it about? Is there something wrong with sets becoming more popular? How? I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. Why should that be an argument against buffing Tankers? You’re the one who directed me to your charts, I can only look at what’s on them. Less facetiously, that’s the point I was trying to make.

I’m looking at the FotM posts Cipher made. If you’re not arguing for the sake of balance, why are you being so cautious about giving Tankers more damage output? What other reason is there to be so wary of it? You know that isn’t true. Super Strength is the most popular Tanker secondary by a wide margin, despite people swearing up and down that its an average set at best. If effectiveness was the sole factor in what people decide to play, it wouldn’t have such a commanding lead. When it comes to Brutes vs. Tankers, the numbers match the prevailing player sentiment. Well if that’s all it takes for an accurate test, everything is in order. The Brute does more damage than the Tanker at all levels.

1. Your list includes four powers across the 22 armor sets and 11 melee sets available to Tankers and Brutes. That is not widespread across the ATs. There are still 19 melee sets and 10 armor sets that gain no benefit from the -res effect buff, and that represents by far the majority of Tankers and Brutes. The difference in Assault amounts to 1/3rd of a small red over what it is currently. And Melt Armor long recharge means it isn’t regularly available in fights. I don’t have the numbers for Arctic Breath in front of me, but they’d have to be extreme to unbalance the entire AT. 2. Great doesn’t mean unbalanced. 3. There are nearly twice as many Brutes as there are Tankers on Homecoming. The whole instigating issue for these changes was that players felt that the Tanker’s increased survivability over the Brute was not worth the lower damage. It’s not a ridiculous claim at all. What about them? I don’t see any place where the Tanker surpasses the Brute’s damage on paper.

Not just identical or near identical builds, but ones with no incarnate powers.

Only on the few Tankers that took these powers. Not to a degree that actually matters.

I don’t think it’s really a problem if Tankers can outperform Brutes DPS-wise in certain high-end, buff heavy environments, unless it’s for some reason sacrosanct that Tankers can never outdamage Brutes by any metric.

This is true. Champions Online was designed from the start to give you free travel powers. City of Heroes, however, was designed to make you have to choose a travel power with your limited selection of power choices, and the number of choices you get was set with the expectation that most players would be spending two of them on a Travel power.

They definitely have to do something with Stun, but what? It occurred to me the other day that Stun is possibly the only minor damage ST melee control power left in the game. Cobra Strike, Clobber, and Knockout Blow have all become high-damage attacks. I bet the only reason Stun hasn't followed suit is because EM is already a ST monster.

Are you sure? This is what I see in Pines:

An Invul Brute with fully slotted resistances still has 33% or so S/L resist to go before the cap, Tough can do plenty.

Well it seems to be accelerating, because I literally just logged out, switched characters, and immediately switched back and I had 10 more coupons.

Titan Weapons and Bio are known outliers. Assault is rarely taken at all. It's not going to be a big increase.

It's still just gonna be a drop in the bucket. I feel like you're treating this like all Tankers just got a stackable 15% res debuff for free, when they got a 6.25% increase to a resistance debuff they already had but most didn't take. And most people still won't take it, even if the number of people who do goes up with this buff.

It's just gonna be another drop in the bucket of debuffs from an entire league.

I literally can't think of a scenario more ideal for abusing Melt Armor than a pylon test.

Except every time it interrupts my fighting....

It won't just be non-permanent, it won't even be on the majority of enemies you fight. Almost nothing is actually going to take the full 40 seconds that Melt Armor lasts to defeat, except EBs, AVs, and maybe particularly sturdy bosses, even without Melt Armor. You'll drop the mobs and move on to the next group which Melt Armor won't be up for, and it probably won't be up for the group after that, either.

Well, Assault would do nothing, since you'd be at the damage cap. But that aside, the Tanker is doing more damage in this one situation that we know doesn't accurately represent actual gameplay, and it wouldn't even be a permanent thing, considering the cooldown on APP Melt Armor.