Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Rylas]

36 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The best I can say is the least useful examples are AE farms, they are too optimized for kill speed and AoE and dont translate well into game-content.

 

As a side encouragement, partially unrelated, there are some under-the-hood changes that require lots of testing of complicated content. This means: iTrials, TFs, regular Trials, all that kind of stuff. it would help take out two birds with one hurled boulder if that kind of content was used for tests too.

Good to know. Thanks!

 

So is anyone else interested in group testing? I can test the changes solo, so I'm happy enough to take a different AT for group play. Someone's got to provide the Fulcrum Shift after all.

[ajlee209]

2 minutes ago, Rylas said:

Good to know. Thanks!

 

So is anyone else interested in group testing? I can test the changes solo, so I'm happy enough to take a different AT for group play. Someone's got to provide the Fulcrum Shift after all.

I'm down to join at some point.  Very busy this week and weekend but would be happy to help.

[Replacement]

Group testing will def be important.  But it'll probably be easiest to coordinate in the beta channel of the Discord.

 

Important PSA: Reminder to veteran tankers: the under-the-hood mechanisms of Gauntlet have been replaced.  Testing would be appreciated.

 

I more or less main tanks in every MMO except CoH.  Precisely because I never developed this "feel" and now I'm a little too ashamed to stand in the spotlight next to The Greats.  So if you're a career tank, this is probably a good way to apply that decade of intuition: see if how you expect AI to behave doesn't match up.  If it feels like you're holding hate easier or harder, etc.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Replacement

[drbuzzard]

OK, gave a shot to trying this out on test yesterday. Made a fiery aura/radiation melee tank, advanced it to 50, and decked it out with IO and incarnate goodness. Then I took it on the first mission of LGTF at +1x8.

 

Biggest change that I noticed was the radius effect on blazing aura (and maybe irradiated ground, I wasn't sure if that one reached out so far, suppose I should try it by itself). The radius coupled with the aggro changes (and I suppose AOE target number as well) meant that every spawn I wandered into was on me like stink on poop, and I got attention immediately. They also proceeded for the huddle to get nice and toasty.

 

Atom smasher was good for reaching out and touching at more range, and that was nice. I didn't really get a good feel for proton sweep, but I will test further to get an idea of how that change affects it. I currently skip that power because even slightly narrow melee cones are something I find more annoying than they are worth.

 

The damage increase was there, but didn't really stand out like the other effects so I can't say I really noticed it.

 

I will test further today with the revised changes.

[Megajoule]

Oh, and whoever it was who was bleating "but the TRINITY!" and "how dare Tankers actually be able to do damage" (and thus be viable outside of a team/soloing) earlier, here are my thoughts on that, from the previous thread:

 

On 8/29/2019 at 11:22 AM, Megajoule said:

The essential role of the Tanker in the Trinity is a taunt-bot, a giant block of armor and meat that absorbs all attacks for the group while the healer(s) keep pouring water on it to put the fires out. Only the DPS players get to do something different, and that's if their optimal rotation can't be reduced to a macro.

 

It boggles me sometimes that anyone thought this gameplay was fun. Maybe it wasn't, and everyone just accepted it as the way things were and/or what you had to endure to get the shinies.  I'm glad CoX broke with so much of the conventional wisdom of the time - consider defenders, in contrast to "healers" - but I'm also aware that a lot of that is because they didn't really know what they were doing and were mostly "winging it".  It's sadly ironic that we now have to deal with one of the few places they got it "right" according to the state of the art in 2000-2005.

 

On 8/29/2019 at 11:46 AM, Megajoule said:

*shrug*

What I'm saying, or trying to, is that IMO the Trinity is broken and unfun, we're all better off without it, and the Tanker is one of the unfortunate relics of it that we're all trying to find a way to live with, 20 years later.

 

I mean, it's un-comics! I'm sure you can find characters who are durable but not able to deal damage in equal measure, but IMO they are very much the exception. The comic archetype is the Brick (or Brute), who can dish it out as well as standing there and taking it.  The ambulatory meatshield with tiny T. rex arms is a game artifact that I can trace directly to the text MUDs that were the evolutionary predecessors of the first MMOs.

 

For what it's worth, I do have skin on this game (so to speak). Two of the live characters I've recreated here are Tankers (one Inv/SS, one Stone/Stone). My love of their concepts has been enough to carry me through despite all the issues with their powers and gameplay, as discussed in this and other threads. Can they be salvaged, improved, made more fun to play, without fundamentally altering them or eliminating their role? Has it already been eliminated by changes in the meta, and we're only now catching up and realizing it? I don't know.

 

tl;dr: %^#@ the Trinity.  Another poster pointed out that in this game, a full team of any given AT is perfectly viable.  We don't have designated taunt-bots or heal-bots in this game, we have heroes (and villains), and the game is better for it.  Dispensing (mostly) with the Trinity is one of the best things the original Devs, in their earnest ignorance of how to make a "proper" MMO like all the others of the time, ever did.

[Sura]

Honestly, what I like about Tankers (and tanks in other games) is being completely buried within a mob of mobs and not being worried.  That makes me feel strong and (in this case) super.  So I guess I'm someone that finds the Trinity Tanker (if I'm understanding your definition correctly) fun.  Saying "TRex arms" and "not able to do damage" just plain isn't accurate; I do damage, I arrest bad guys, and I do it while chuckling at their meager attempts to hurt me.  It's a different approach than aiming for defeating things as quickly as possible, but I feel my fun is valid.

[tidge]

I've played tanks since Live day one. Here are my thoughts on the proposed changes:

 

End boost: very thematic, and something I would have proposed. Taking a knee at low levels because of endurance has been far more painful for my low level tanks than for any other AT I've played. Some higher level builds will benefit by reconsidering power and slotting choices.

 

T1/T2 swap: My Energy Melee prefers Barrage to Energy Punch, but as I hold out some hope for an Energy Melee revisit I will transition to...

 

Bruising (Homecoming flavor):  My lvl 50 tank won't really miss it, except possibly in some exemplared content. As this was only on the T1 power, I always wondered what non-tanks thought of me throwing that attack! I think there is an argument in favor of Bruising not being affected by the Purple Patch, but the other Melee improvements feel like a reasonable compromise.

 

Improved range/arcs: Since the game cannot allow for an increased aggro cap for Tanks, allowing for their AoE to HIT MORE mob is the next best thing. I'd keep an eye on damaging Aurae (for all AT) just because I remember the era of Fire tanks discovering they could AFK-level wherever DE swarms spawned.

 

Damage cap boost: This is welcome, and I think anyone worrying about it is over-reacting. I have not found damage boosts to be particularly easy to come by. From my PoV the biggest impact would be on specific teams that can leverage damage boosts, and it such circumstances the boosts won't be 'wasted' on tanks.

 

Like a few others have written, I *personally* feel that there are a few elements of some sets and ATs which are overpowered in certain aspects... However these efforts are clearly trying to improve the quality of life for not just Tankers but the teams they play with rather than trying to Nerf other players. Bravo!

 

[Replacement]

Nuance is awesome:

-I like having a defined role

-I like also getting to deal damage.

 

These are not mutually exclusive principles.  

 

Everyone loves to spit Trinity like a curse, and then some folks note how many modern games go the other direction and make everyone so self-sufficient that grouping is stupid.

 

To me, the truth of CoH lives in the middle:  This is a game great because it allows you to have roles, but allows you to break those roles and define new ones.

 

Tankers getting some QOL damage does not make them self-sufficient tankmages.  It does not make them Brutes, The Sequel.  It does not spontaneously create or destroy a trinity.

[Megajoule]

Per above, I've played tanks.  I know it can be fun to just stand there at the center and get beat on.  But there have been times - when I've tried to solo, or when the rest of my team isn't up to snuff - that it gets frustrating, because it seems that all I can do is stand there and get beat on.  I can't make a dent in that giant mass in any reasonable amount of time.  It feels like trying to weed a flowerbed with tweezers; you can do it, but it's going to take all day and it's very easy to get discouraged.

 

(See also, trying to solo a defender, which is something else I've done, more than once even. 😞 )

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Megajoule

[Golden Azrael]

I understand the frustrations of the above post.  How can it be that a tank is 'helpless' other than to get beat upon?

 

Simple.  Replace Build UP with 'Rage' for all non SS tanks and you have a transformative action to all of those old fashioned tanks like Ice, Energy and Stone.  Suddenly you CAN be more than a beat shield.  You can then put your fist in where it hurts.

 

Another thing missed off this Tanker patch.  The actual Taunt sound.  Can we have a choice please?  Of 'Arhh...' or 'Hurr' (bah, the sick bucket for that one.  I don't like the latter but it's been given to all my tanks rolled so far.  Can we please /taunt 1 or 2 please?  It seems to be linked to body type..?

 

Azrael.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Golden Azrael

[Haijinx]

Its been stated before, often, but the Aggro cap can not be made AT specific apparently. 

 

Thus every 4th poster suggesting it is kind of pointless.

[Demon Shell]

I would have sooner seen the .95 damage modifier reduced to .9 than seen that 100% range boost reduced to 60%, but it's fine. Just don't reduce it further.

 

That range boost is the key to making Tankers play differently than Brutes. And that is the most important part of these changes. It's not enough to make Tankers viable. With Bruising gone (regardless of how in/effective it may have been) Tankers need a unique mechanic that causes you to approach content and build your character differently. Same as what Stalkers have.

[csr]

On 9/10/2019 at 4:48 PM, Vanden said:

I think it works. Tanker base damage has been increased by the same amount that Bruising would add to your attacks, so the only real increase in damage is to the Tanker's AoE attacks.

Roughly the same amount against even level foes, the buff is more substantial against higher level foes as Bruise's effect is reduced by the Purple Patch.  Also, the Bruise attack itself does more damage.  And you can optimize your chain without Bruise.

 

So, Tanker damage output on AoEs has been increased dramatically, sustained ST damage against higher level foes has been increased some and burst ST damage has also gone up a bit.

Edited September 12, 2019 by csr
Typo

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, Purrfekshawn said:

And also - please copypaste Energy Aura & perhaps some sort of Regeneration set (with improved resistance) for Tankers. Brute's Energy Aura lMO may just be copypasted to tankers (with +30% standard buff or so). It's now durable enough for Tanking (mah Elec sentinel approves).

 

 

Make it so.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Myrmidon

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Rylas said:

Good to know. Thanks!

 

So is anyone else interested in group testing? I can test the changes solo, so I'm happy enough to take a different AT for group play. Someone's got to provide the Fulcrum Shift after all.

And the Speed Boost for Rage in one package.

 

Double testing!

[csr]

On 9/10/2019 at 4:30 PM, Leandro said:

Tank Updates [Experimental Changes]
AoEs

• Most Tanker AoE powers now extend to inflict damage and other effects beyond their radius or arcs.

  • As part of their inherent power, tankers get a buff that works similar to Boost Range, but it boosts Radius and Arc of powers.

  • The arc of Cones gets boosted by +100% and the radius of PBAoEs are boosted by +100%.

  • This means a 90 degree cone will actually cover a 180 area, while a 10ft PBAoE will cover 20ft.

  • Almost all cones with over 90 degree arc, or AoE with over a 10ft radius, ignores this buff.

I hope we're going to get notes in powers that are excepted from this rule stating that it doesn't apply.  The obscurity of figuring out what gets the buff and what doesn't is a bit troubling.  I would also reword the "Most Tanker AoE powers now extend to inflict damage and other effects beyond their radius or arcs" to "Most Tanker AoE powers now have their arcs or radii extended by Gauntlet" or something to that effect.

[drbuzzard]

OK, just tried the new patch on test, Built a different tanker because I wanted to try the rage business as well.

 

This time it was a decked out radiation/SS tanker at 50 doing LGTF mission 1 again. Foot stomp did nice work, and I coupled it with crosspunch for some more AOE goodness. I didn't find that beta decay did nearly as well in the aggro grabbing business as blazing aura had in my previous testing. This could be somewhat due to the radius change, but I'm not convinced of that because a foot stomp would quickly get the attention of a spawn and get them into hugging distance.

 

I am curious if the 'tanker modifies melee cones' power affects pool powers, because if that is so crosspunch must really suck without it. It was very hard to get that cone lined up to affect more than maybe 3 or 4 targets.

 

I should try the previous build again, though to get a better feel for the change in radius. Will post again once I do.

[Haijinx]

47 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 

 

Make it so.

EA for tanks would be awesome.

[JPax]

4 hours ago, Auroxis said:

TW has a feature no other powersets have on Tanker, with the defense buff also having strong offensive capabilities. If you wanna argue for nerfs, you can nerf TW as a whole and not focus on the Tanker version of it. You can also nerf it without forcing players to take extra powers (Crushing Blow in this case) they otherwise wouldn't have needed to pick up in order to be optimal.

Tanker TW has one thing that all the other TW versions don't have, a -res component on their T1. Without it, it's the same as every other TW set. You aren't forced to take Crushing Blow either, you never have been or will be in this patch. I fail to see what your point is at present. The defensive T1 will still be the T1 and still do as much damage as it does now with bruising, except without having to apply bruising. Did you not read that part of the patch notes or somesuch?

[JPax]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

EA for tanks would be awesome.

Regen for tanks, nom nom nom. With changes ofc.

[Bossk_Hogg]

2 hours ago, Demon Shell said:

I would have sooner seen the .95 damage modifier reduced to .9 than seen that 100% range boost reduced to 60%, but it's fine. Just don't reduce it further.

 

That range boost is the key to making Tankers play differently than Brutes. And that is the most important part of these changes. It's not enough to make Tankers viable. With Bruising gone (regardless of how in/effective it may have been) Tankers need a unique mechanic that causes you to approach content and build your character differently. Same as what Stalkers have.

I'll second this. Particularly for cones, I'd rather consistently hit more enemies for less damage than futz around trying to position. I'm trying to keep an eye out for anything gunning for the squishies, and it can be a PITA to maneuver while you're in the middle of it. 

[Beau_Hica]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Its been stated before, often, but the Aggro cap can not be made AT specific apparently. 

 

Thus every 4th poster suggesting it is kind of pointless.

That's my point exactly.  There are spawns of 16-25 or cases where there are spawns of 30-40.  Having an aggro cap of 10 means I have to ask the group to wait, risk wiping everyone but me, or build a specific team around being able to take the damage.  As it stands right now, I'm untouched by about 90% of the incoming damage, and that damage is reduced by at least 50%.  I want to be able to hold aggro on the entire set of mobs... not half of them.  A single rain of fire/freezing rain/etc will sometimes grab massive amounts of things (*Pinelope Yin TF Final Fight for example), or literally any ranged aoe that can hit more than 10 things at once.  Raise the aggro cap, increase threat generated to surpass brutes, let tank aoe's hit more targets than brute.  Done.  Tank is unique again and I can stop getting questions like, "Why didn't you just roll a brute?"

[Leogunner]

3 minutes ago, Beau_Hica said:

That's my point exactly.  There are spawns of 16-25 or cases where there are spawns of 30-40.  Having an aggro cap of 10 means I have to ask the group to wait, risk wiping everyone but me, or build a specific team around being able to take the damage.  As it stands right now, I'm untouched by about 90% of the incoming damage, and that damage is reduced by at least 50%.  I want to be able to hold aggro on the entire set of mobs... not half of them.  A single rain of fire/freezing rain/etc will sometimes grab massive amounts of things (*Pinelope Yin TF Final Fight for example), or literally any ranged aoe that can hit more than 10 things at once.  Raise the aggro cap, increase threat generated to surpass brutes, let tank aoe's hit more targets than brute.  Done.  Tank is unique again and I can stop getting questions like, "Why didn't you just roll a brute?"

Probably not necessary. 

 

You trying to tell me no one on your team has debuffs or controls? You are a team, after all... 

[Haijinx]

6 minutes ago, Beau_Hica said:

That's my point exactly.  There are spawns of 16-25 or cases where there are spawns of 30-40.  Having an aggro cap of 10 means I have to ask the group to wait, risk wiping everyone but me, or build a specific team around being able to take the damage.  As it stands right now, I'm untouched by about 90% of the incoming damage, and that damage is reduced by at least 50%.  I want to be able to hold aggro on the entire set of mobs... not half of them.  A single rain of fire/freezing rain/etc will sometimes grab massive amounts of things (*Pinelope Yin TF Final Fight for example), or literally any ranged aoe that can hit more than 10 things at once.  Raise the aggro cap, increase threat generated to surpass brutes, let tank aoe's hit more targets than brute.  Done.  Tank is unique again and I can stop getting questions like, "Why didn't you just roll a brute?"

The cap is 17, not 10.

 

Also if you raised it for tanks you'd be raising it for brutes too.  And Blasters.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Haijinx
Extra point.

[Replacement]

Yeah but aggro cap isn't the same as target cap. Where I think Beau is going with this is, if the aggro cap were higher, then tankers' higher target caps would be pretty noticable just as a means of holding hate.