Devs: Too much powercreep, not enough challenge

[Leogunner]

No need for higher difficulty settings, just give team leaders a means of blocking incarnate and IO bonuses.

 

Put it in the confirmation like when you're getting level shifted that "This team limits defensive invention bonuses" or "This team limits offensive invention bonuses" or "This team limits all invention bonuses" and "The following incarnate powers will be disabled:...." then you have to agree before you can join the team.

 

Scaling things higher is literally the same thing but more difficult.  Control of the content as well as the team can help improve the experience overall.  I'd also suggest some means of compensating players who disable certain bonuses (basically handicapping yourself) like maybe putting up an option to earn a certain reward of your choosing and basically earning "experience" that grants that reward once you fill up the bar while handicapped...but that'd likely require a ton or work to implement and balance.  Not to mention, min/maxers are going to game it to the max.

[oxmox]

While I'm all for more difficult content, I don't think there's really a big demand for it. Like with most MMOs, COH players are mostly focused on trying out different builds and tricking them out with top end IOs and incarnates. As others have said, council radios, AE farms, BAF, hamikazes, and MSRs are all way way more popular than the more challenging content already present.

 

The incarnate system specifically I think comes down to disagreement between the playerbase and the devs that designed it. I don't think incarnate abilities were ever intended to be balanced, and the game was not meant to be hard for full incarnate teams. With the time spent adding lower level content it always felt to me like the devs considered 1-50 to be the 'real game'. Maxing out t4 incarnates and full purple IO builds was the victory lap for people taking their favorite hero into near godhood.

 

This inevitably leaves people who max out their character first and then look to start playing feeling disappointed with the ease and lack of content.

[jubakumbi]

5 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Not to mention, min/maxers are going to game it to the max.

That's always IME what happens - add in more challenge, players want more compensation because of it, causing more challenge to be needed and the cycle never ends, all MMOs end up here...

 

Most importantly, IMO, is defining what is challenging...one persons challenge is another persons cake-walk is another persons perfect balance.

Adding bigger numbers is not adding challenge, it is just extending the life of the hamster wheel, IMO.

Anything with a script adds no challenge beyond a few runs of figuring out the script and then doing the dance steps right over and over, don't stand in the blue death, etc...the only challenge there become player management/leadership, which is simply not why I play games, I get plenty of people drama in RL.

 

So, IMO, just like in every MMO on the planet, once you have 'the build' all you can do is find personal goals, because 15 minutes after anything new hits, the tricked out characters will have beaten it and put up the video on how to do it for everyone else.

 

IMO, CoH challenges are all based around personal investment and responsibility, all of the numbers have already been figured out....

Which why, IMO, CoH is popular with the 'make all the characters' crowd, the replayability, to me, comes from the diversity of characters I can create, not from the numerical/scripted in-game challenges.

[Shoulung]

If you want all ATs to feel useful, then you need content that only they can handle, which means strategizing team competition. Hamidon does this at a very basic and static level. Introducing this into a fluid environment would be great for those low dps ATs, and also redirect those characters back to doing what they’re best at rather than chasing damage.

[Doc_Scorpion]

31 minutes ago, oxmox said:

This inevitably leaves people who max out their character first and then look to start playing feeling disappointed with the ease and lack of content.

So much this...  But I will say, it's not unique to CoX.  I saw the same behavior pattern in UO back in 2001/02.

[jubakumbi]

1 hour ago, Derekl1963 said:

So much this...  But I will say, it's not unique to CoX.  I saw the same behavior pattern in UO back in 2001/02.

And it will never stop, IMO, as some poeple simply prefer that style of play, even when they ruin the game for themsleves.

For CoH, plenty of data exists to explain that the meat of the content is based aorund leveling new characters, not endgame raid progression.

So IMO, if players just do even a little research...

But there will always be people that are firm in the thought that the only way to play is to start at the apex of power, regardless of the game involved, and judge it only by that metric...cannot please some of the people any of the time, IMO...

[Doc_Scorpion]

4 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

And it will never stop, IMO, as some poeple simply prefer that style of play, even when they ruin the game for themsleves.

For CoH, plenty of data exists to explain that the meat of the content is based aorund leveling new characters, not endgame raid progression.

No, it will never stop.  And it will continue to cause problems in every MMO ever, in a large part because that portion of the playerbase is VERY vocal.

And it highlights a problem in CoX that goes back at least as far as when I started playing I8, the general lack of content in the lower and middle ranges.  Which hurts retention in the "content over power" segment of the playerbase...  Thus leading to the ever growing prominence of players at the opposite end of the spectrum.  It's a positive feedback loop.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Derekl1963

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

As the HC Team have previously pointed out that by the time you are fully decked out in the io sets you want, have all the accolades and temp powers etc collected that is the equiv of in other MMOs having beaten the top raid content and having all the best raid gear. When you have the best gear from a raid, you expect the raid to be much easier then before you have all the raid loot.

 

So if you have fully IOd out etc then you should not be expecting any  more real challenge. You have a completed character. use that to help others not as far along in their pursuit, roll a new alt, or use one of your alt build slots to create a SO only build, and unslot all your incarnate abilities. Having capped no few toons since HC, I have felt plenty of challenge and difficulty both while leveling and at cap while progressing through incarnate trees and what not. The reduction in difficulty is the reward for perfecting a character. We reduce the risk because we have gain the rewards and then get the ultimate reward of feeling god like.

 

This isnt WoW where they keep jacking up the lvl cap, and invalidate all the top old loot with power inflation on even the common stuff a couple lvls into the new cap range. If you have a build in coh that has conquered all challenges you set before it, great job, do it again, or help others. Or make your own AE arc designed to abuse your toon and see if with a deck staccked against your super man he can still prevail.

[Carnifax]

10 hours ago, Derekl1963 said:

No, it will never stop.  And it will continue to cause problems in every MMO ever, in a large part because that portion of the playerbase is VERY vocal.

And it highlights a problem in CoX that goes back at least as far as when I started playing I8, the general lack of content in the lower and middle ranges.  Which hurts retention in the "content over power" segment of the playerbase...  Thus leading to the ever growing prominence of players at the opposite end of the spectrum.  It's a positive feedback loop.

They did add First Ward and Night Ward which cover mid. Night ward is a bit odd but the First ward story is pretty good.

 

Of course at the lower levels they made a tonne of new content, then decided to wall it off into a stand alone side (Goldside with Going Rogue). So if you want to play it youre basically resigning yourself to playing solo for 20 levels. 

 

Itd be nice if they could break that and allow Blue and Red in as 'ive just finished my Dfb runs' content as a Steel / Skyway alternative. Theres TUNNEL connections there but you dont get contacts suggested as far as I know.

 

[summers]

I don't have any suggestion on what to do, but I can say that my experience is that level 50 content is very bland. A lot of people can solo +4/x8, nukes are on short timers and everyone has their judgement. The best levels IMO are around 20-40, where debuffs matter, resistances and defences aren't soft capped on everybody including the squishy, and you have to work as a team to get things done.

 

Remember when Radiation Infection was worth casting? Or Fearsome Stare? Don't bother at 50, just nuke and steamroll.

[DSorrow]

I'd like different kinds of challenges in CoX. Right now what we have is basically completely "is your number higher than their number" and that's a very binary sort of challenge. More stuff like Hamidon would be cool: higher numbers help you but strategy is more important than just nuking everything. 

 

In the post 50 game I find I have the most fun in pretty small teams (3-4 people) where we can still steamroll, but there's at least an illusion of being able to lose. That isn't to say 8 man teams aren't cool, but at 50 I just can't seem to enjoy them in long sessions because my individual contribution feels pretty meaningless and there's absolutely no challenge at all.

 

Fortunately there's at least some control over being way too powerful. While I love the incarnate system, none of my characters have Judgment and I don't think that's going to change in a while.

[Herotu]

On 9/11/2019 at 7:10 PM, Abraxus said:

It's a delicate balance, and a tightrope that the Devs walk in any kinds of change.  Because there are folks who love things just the way they are, and those that seek change.  With the exception of QoL changes which are typically received well by all, other changes to the game always have their fans, and detractors; both sides of which make their perspectives, and opinions known.  Just peruse the September 10 Patch Notes thread for a bit of a taste.

 

Just gotta remember, there are always two sides to darn near any topic of discussion, and often, they both have valid points.

The best response to this would be a tonne of challenging new content but without a huge studio to produce it, we're in a quandry! A veritable pickle, right? A jar of pickles... a truckload of pickles that has spilled onto the highway/freeway/motorway/autobahn and are being sqashed by all and sundry, oh the humanity! 

On a note of some kind, we're supposed to be superheroes, so obliterating waves of minions SHOULD be easy peasy and commonplace, but then the BOSS should be challenging (but where do you draw the line between a bag of hitpoints and a stupid dancing raid-like fiasco?) - I've gone off topic. Oh I started off topic and then went more off topic. Amazing.

[Doc_Scorpion]

8 hours ago, Carnifax said:

Of course at the lower levels they made a tonne of new content, then decided to wall it off into a stand alone side (Goldside with Going Rogue).

When you put it that way, (with the perspective of the intervening years) it kinda makes me go "WT-actual-F were they thinking?".  They already had one badly underutilized route (redside), so why add another?

[Coyotedancer]

21 hours ago, Shoulung said:

If you want all ATs to feel useful, then you need content that only they can handle, which means strategizing team competition. Hamidon does this at a very basic and static level. Introducing this into a fluid environment would be great for those low dps ATs, and also redirect those characters back to doing what they’re best at rather than chasing damage.

And then you absolutely wreck the game for solo/small-team players.

 

"Oh no. We can't do Arc X because no one in our trio is AT Y or power-set Z!"

 

No thanks. <_<

Edited September 19, 2019 by Coyotedancer

[Shoulung]

You make it sound wrong to have content designed for groups... in an MMO... even superman needs help every once in a while. Are you worried about losing access to the phenomenal story lines or loot? It’s already been established that the majority of players do the easy incarnate content as it’s less work for the same rewards, so loot won’t be the issue. Maybe you’d like a nice /lfg trial ala WoW so you won’t be deprived of content.  They can give you a troller npc to follow you around if your friends only like to blast things rather than execute some strategy and tactics. Wouldn’t want people to have to work to accomplish something after all. The fact is, you either cater to the lowest common denominator or you create varied content that appeals to different kinds of people. There’s plenty of folks that never leave the AE...

[DR_Mechano]

5 minutes ago, Shoulung said:

You make it sound wrong to have content designed for groups... in an MMO... even superman needs help every once in a while. Are you worried about losing access to the phenomenal story lines or loot? It’s already been established that the majority of players do the easy incarnate content as it’s less work for the same rewards, so loot won’t be the issue. Maybe you’d like a nice /lfg trial ala WoW so you won’t be deprived of content.  They can give you a troller npc to follow you around if your friends only like to blast things rather than execute some strategy and tactics. Wouldn’t want people to have to work to accomplish something after all. The fact is, you either cater to the lowest common denominator or you create varied content that appeals to different kinds of people. There’s plenty of folks that never leave the AE...

Here's the thing though...CoH ISN'T WoW...it's not designed around the same goals, it's not designed around the 'endgame is the only game' philosophy which is what you seem to desire. As mentioned the hardest content is there for YOU and your friends to do. I mean do you have the master of Magisterium badge? Forcing everyone to be like you doesn't work. Loot isn't really a thing in this game either. Face it, the game ain't gonna be WoW. By the time you're character is fully incarnated out with all tier 4s and a fully pimped out 500 million inf IO build...congrats your character is done, its basically like being a high end raider, you've beaten all the content, you've got it on farm and unlike WoW the gear treadmill doesn't reset every 4 months with a new raid...go play and level another powerset combo or a whole new AT. Hell go help other people with taskforces and iTrials to show off how awesome your character is.

Edited September 19, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[jubakumbi]

9 minutes ago, Shoulung said:

You make it sound wrong to have content designed for groups... in an MMO... even superman needs help every once in a while. Are you worried about losing access to the phenomenal story lines or loot? It’s already been established that the majority of players do the easy incarnate content as it’s less work for the same rewards, so loot won’t be the issue. Maybe you’d like a nice /lfg trial ala WoW so you won’t be deprived of content.  They can give you a troller npc to follow you around if your friends only like to blast things rather than execute some strategy and tactics. Wouldn’t want people to have to work to accomplish something after all. The fact is, you either cater to the lowest common denominator or you create varied content that appeals to different kinds of people. There’s plenty of folks that never leave the AE...

You could design groups for the content as a challenge.

New content would be very nice - if you like raids and things, why not design some and submit those to the HC team, mock them up in the AE, etc.?

While Supes needed help sometimes, we have Incarnate Trials.

 

It's obvious IMO you are really trying to attack the 'gaming integrity' of anyone that does not want to play your way.

Don't need a Protestant Work Ethic in my video game I play for entertainment, thanks.

If you don't like the fact that people exist that play an MMO who don't really care for group content, oh well, go play one...

 

Pfft. Your 'lowest common demominator' comment shows all anyone needs to see, IMO.

[MunkiLord]

56 minutes ago, Shoulung said:

There’s plenty of folks that never leave the AE...

I have one character that has only been to AE and Wentworth's in Atlas Park. Hasn't even left the zone to go to my SG base. I have another that is the same except has been in the SG base.

[DR_Mechano]

6 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I have one character that has only been to AE and Wentworth's in Atlas Park. Hasn't even left the zone to go to my SG base. I have another that is the same except has been in the SG base.

Same, my farmer/marketeer character literally only moves from AE to Merit Vendor and back again. They're the equivalent of what most MMOs would term 'banking alts' except these banking alts can also go farm stuff and not just acts a money/item mules.

[Andrewvm]

On 9/13/2019 at 4:18 AM, Chance Jackson said:

no new purple patches no new nerfs

I remember the purple patch, that was a dumb decision:

 

Before you could hit a purple even +8 but you would do piddly damage. 

So what we did was double team up as level 10's and seek out and pull a single outcast. Hit it with all we got from 16 players and play high risk high reward. It felt like a mini hamiraid. 

 

Then purple patch hit and the - to hit made it so you would never ever hit a purple past +4. And in the low levels even that was impossible. 

 

I hated that patch. 

[MunkiLord]

16 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Same, my farmer/marketeer character literally only moves from AE to Merit Vendor and back again. They're the equivalent of what most MMOs would term 'banking alts' except these banking alts can also go farm stuff and not just acts a money/item mules.

It's very intentional too. The goal is for those characters to NEVER leave AP, no real reason than just cuz. Though as I get closer to T4 Incarnate abilities, it's very hard resist the temptation to repeat the first DA arc to speed that up a bit.

[THEDarkTyger]

On 9/13/2019 at 3:46 PM, Frostbiter said:

I'm sorry, I'm not going to defend myself or expand on my opinions now. I might have if I had been approached reasonably about it to begin with but that ship burned in port. 

So because one person's response was snarky and rude, you're going to completely write off a completely different person's completely polite and reasonable request for elaboration? That's not petty and childish at all...

[Herotu]

28 minutes ago, THEDarkTyger said:

So because one person's response was snarky and rude, you're going to completely write off a completely different person's completely polite and reasonable request for elaboration? That's not petty and childish at all...

Yes it is! Oh...

[MunkiLord]

30 minutes ago, THEDarkTyger said:

So because one person's response was snarky and rude, you're going to completely write off a completely different person's completely polite and reasonable request for elaboration? That's not petty and childish at all...

In all fairness had the person continued that conversation there would have been more snarky and/or rude comments and the thread would have likely been locked days ago.

[Frostbiter]

37 minutes ago, THEDarkTyger said:

So because one person's response was snarky and rude, you're going to completely write off a completely different person's completely polite and reasonable request for elaboration? That's not petty and childish at all...

Yes, but I'm 40 so childish doesn't really apply outside of your opinion. Also, we must have really different opinions on what constitutes polite and reasonable.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Frostbiter