rework Teleportation Power Pool Rework

[PaxArcana]

2 hours ago, 0th Power said:

Idea for the t5. don’t know if it’s possible.

combat teleport-toggle:

when active you teleport into range of your next qued attack. Could be a constant endurance drain or every time you port. Would be great for melee willing to invest the power choices, probably helpful for sentinels too. 

This needs to be upvoted about a dozen more times.

 

Even though my sole Teleport character (so far) is a Mastermind who will never take a direct attack (aside from Forcebolt, he didn't have any choice about that one), so I doubt I'd ever take this power myself ... it just sounds SO very cool.

 

I dunno if it's even possible to code it, though.  😞

[0th Power]

Woah, I had an idea that at least 3 people like.  New personal best!

[Some Random User]

8 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

I dunno if it's even possible to code it, though.

We have code to automatically teleport a vector from the toon's current position, so this is easy. (For a human this is ridiculous math but what are computers here for?)

 

Obligatory coding explanation: When an attack fails to trigger due to range you trigger the "Passive Teleport" effect. Then you get the toon and the target's grid coordinates, find the angle (we'll call this our "heading"), run the absolute distance formula, subtract the failed attack's range (already being logged by the client) from the total distance (we'll call this our "distance"), and activate the vector teleport command at the heading and distance. Maybe you subtract less than the attack's range to make certain you account for the foe's movement. In any event, this is trivially easy to code. The hardest part is probably the Endurance cost part. When you activate an attack the game checks for multiple possible issues, such as "are you within range," "how much available Endurance do you have," or for some attacks "are you on the ground?" Depending on what gets checked first there may need to be some code-gymnastics to add the teleportation Endurance cost.

[GM Sijin]

7 hours ago, Some Random User said:

We have code to automatically teleport a vector from the toon's current position, so this is easy. (For a human this is ridiculous math but what are computers here for?)

 

Obligatory coding explanation: When an attack fails to trigger due to range you trigger the "Passive Teleport" effect. Then you get the toon and the target's grid coordinates, find the angle (we'll call this our "heading"), run the absolute distance formula, subtract the failed attack's range (already being logged by the client) from the total distance (we'll call this our "distance"), and activate the vector teleport command at the heading and distance. Maybe you subtract less than the attack's range to make certain you account for the foe's movement. In any event, this is trivially easy to code. The hardest part is probably the Endurance cost part. When you activate an attack the game checks for multiple possible issues, such as "are you within range," "how much available Endurance do you have," or for some attacks "are you on the ground?" Depending on what gets checked first there may need to be some code-gymnastics to add the teleportation Endurance cost.

I'd say that's actually all the easy part, given its already in there. The hard part is that because this intercepts other powers, or more specifically when they FAIL to activate and has additional checks based on the power you're activating, it almost definitely would require completely new tech in the powers system.

[Some Random User]

20 hours ago, GM Sijin said:

I'd say that's actually all the easy part, given its already in there. The hard part is that because this intercepts other powers, or more specifically when they FAIL to activate and has additional checks based on the power you're activating, it almost definitely would require completely new tech in the powers system.

We already prevent activation and play a sound effect when something doesn't activate. Is this really that different?

[Zepp]

I think the sort of chain teleport, or teleport-to-foe automated teleportation powers would be difficult. A chain attack granting Superior Invisibility*2 level invisibility and intangibility and producing puffs of smoke at opponent locations is probably the best that can be done without drastic measures.

That being said, I think a defensive power should take precedent over offensive powers if a choice has to be made. I really like the T₄ +T_n = new associated effect, but it may render the pool OP. That being said, what are other's thoughts?

 

Original proposal:

On 9/17/2019 at 11:03 AM, Redlynne said:

• T1 alone recalls Teammate (single) near to the Caster.
• T1+T4 recalls all Teammates (plural) in the zone near to the Caster.

• T2 alone brings a Foe (singular) near to the Caster.
• T2+T4 brings a Target AoE of Foes (plural) near to the Caster.

• T3 alone Teleports the Caster up to (unenhanced) 100 yards away.
• T3+T4 brings Long Range Teleports the Caster to other zones.

 

I suggested modifications:

 

• T₁ alone recalls Teammate (single) near to the Caster. [double current range and cut Endurance Cost, Animation Time, and Recharge in half]
• T₁+T₄ recalls all Teammates (plural) in the zone near to the Caster. [double current range]

• T₂ alone brings a Foe (singular) near to the Caster. [double current range; cut Endurance Cost, Animation Time, and Recharge in half; and mark as never causes aggro]
• T₂+T₄ brings a Target AoE of Foes (plural) near to the Caster. [double current range; consider single-target stun rather than making AoE; and mark as never causes aggro]

• T₃ alone Teleports the Caster up to (unenhanced) 100 yards away.  [reduce Endurance Cost by 60-75%; extend hover time; movement cancels hover]
• T₃+T₄ brings Long Range Teleports the Caster to other zones.

• T₅ alone allows short distance teleportation with a defense buff
• T₅+T₄ allows a chain teleportation-feel attack

On 9/15/2019 at 12:39 PM, Zepp said:

My suggestion would be to remove Recall Friend and replace it with a defensive TP power. What would that power look like? There have been several types of ideas that have come up over the years. One is a simple short-range TP with minimal animation time, short range, and low endurance cost. There is also the possibility of adding a 15-30s non-stacking defensive buff to the power to give it similar stats to combat jumping. A different way to approach this would be to not have a TP power per se, but a displacement toggle. This would mean that you are constantly teleporting and thus making yourself more difficult to hit. This would include a minor universal movement bonus, but it would not give you the Nightcrawler feel.

On 9/16/2019 at 12:56 PM, Cooltastic said:

NEW POWER: Teleport Assault: This is a PBAoE attack. No target needed. This ability both phases you out(while immobilizing you) for the duration while damaging up to 10 Foes in a Large Area around you. It has a long cooldown(Maybe 2mins) and a duration of about 3.5 seconds. The FX would be a normal teleport FX around your character while your character vanishes completely until reappearing in the same spot. Effected Enemies will be hit with large puffs of teleport smoke FX repeatedly for the duration, they just need to be sporadic in nature to make it look as if your teleporting around to each one.

 

I would also suggest moving Recall Friend to the T₄ and Enhanced Teleportation to T₅. This would mean that you have:

 

T₁: Teleport Foe (Teleport Foes or Teleport Foe with Stun) [¹/₂ current Animation Time and Recharge, double current range, does not cause aggro]
T₂: Teleportation (Long-Range Teleport) [6s hover, cancels on movement, decreased endurance cost]

T₃: Tactical Teleport (Teleport Assault) [30' range, 15-30s unstackable defense buff] ([chain smashing damage, knockdown, 30' range, self +invisible, +intangible])
T₄: Recall Friend (Recall Team)

T₅: Enhanced Teleportation (150s-ish recharge, 0 cast time, effects the next Teleportation Pool Power cast within a 30s window.)

This would better align it with Leaping and Flight pools. Alternatively, a less controversial approach would be:

 

T₁: Teleport Foe [¹/₂ current Animation Time and Recharge, double current range, does not cause aggro]
T₂: Teleportation [6s hover, cancels on movement, decreased endurance cost]

T₃: Tactical Teleport [30' range, 15-30s unstackable defense buff]
T₄: Recall Friend  [¹/₂ current Animation Time and Recharge, double current range]

T₅: Long-Range Teleport

Thoughts?

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Zepp

[Megajoule]

Moving Recall Friend to Tier 4 (and, again, making it affect the whole team) is "not controversial"?

[Zepp]

7 hours ago, Megajoule said:

Moving Recall Friend to Tier 4 (and, again, making it affect the whole team) is "not controversial"?

There may be players that currently only take Recall Friend. If this type of player exists, they will lose that option. There has already been a good amount of discussion of the need to keep the power ST, even though there is an equal desire for a team version in addition.

[Redlynne]

2 minutes ago, Zepp said:

There may be players that currently only take Recall Friend. If this type of player exists, they will lose that option.

Downvoted.

[Zepp]

2 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Downvoted.

Explain.

I simply explained why moving Recall Friend to T4 may be controversial. Are you downvoting the explanation or the change?

[n00baka]

29 minutes ago, Zepp said:

There may be players that currently only take Recall Friend. If this type of player exists, they will lose that option. There has already been a good amount of discussion of the need to keep the power ST, even though there is an equal desire for a team version in addition.

I appreciate you considering that I exist when redesigning the entire teleportation power pool. I feel that moving a T1 pick in a pool to a T4 slot is never a viable option, no matter how few people you believe use it. If you feel a power pool choice needs improving, doing so while in the constraints of its tier is the best, and in my opinion only, option. 

[Some Random User]

22 hours ago, Zepp said:

T₄: Recall Friend  [¹/₂ current Animation Time and Recharge, double current range]

For some reason I thought the range on [Recall Friend] was set to the maximum value allowable by the engine? Is there such a thing? Can we get confirmation?

[Some Random User]

31 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Explain.

Just my perspective; you may be showing confirmation bias. To get what I'm trying to show here, I wanted to show you two pieces by Malcolm Gladwell. Basically, in short, what I'm talking about is this tendency human beings have to kind of presume others are going to make their decisions based on the same experiences we personally have. This isn't about being wrong, this is about how two human beings can come to wildly different decisions based on the same set of information.

 

Basically, different players select the Teleport Pool for very different reasons. Some want different things. If the different "camps" aren't each given a chance to shine then someone will get frustrated. I don't jump on the "what a pity" bandwagon very often, but we are screwing with a status quo and when we do that we should at least know who we're ticking off and why they should or shouldn't be listened to. Let's take a minute and discuss the different things we use the Teleport Pool for.

 

1: Moving [Recall Friend] away from the first few abilities is a bad idea. This is the rare kind of pick someone will dip into the pool for a single pick. Let's talk about why. I used to be a Taxi Bot; We built an entire Supergroup around [Recall Friend]. There were special events where we'd teleport players around the zone in seconds to get them all of that zone's exploration badges. We really pushed [Recall Friend] to the limits. I have played a lot of Teleport-using toons, and I honestly prefer [Teleport] over any other Travel capability, warts and all. I can also tell you that I know I'm in the minority on that. Most of the players who take [Recall Friend] are doing the same thing the original Taxi Bot (as in the toon named Taxi Bot) intended to do: They're making their teammates (in P.U.G.s) get to the mission faster. As many early players will remember, travel powers used to be gated with a level 14 requirement, and there were no X.P. boosters, only considerable X.P. debt. That doesn't exist anymore. That tanked the number of players taking [Recall Friend] so that teammates can skip directly to the Door Mission (used to be the fastest way to level up). There aren't many Taxi Bots anymore in part because there's no reason to proliferate [Recall Friend] to as many users as is plausible. The idea of summoning you back from a plateau in the Hollows isn't a constant thing now. That having been said, a lot of "support" players still slip [Recall Friend] (and only [Recall Friend]) into their build. The capability is randomly useful in teams, especially when there's a party-wipe. If I'm the last person up I can summon you away from the mobs and you can Awaken. Never mind calling a new player into the back of the Mission when they get in the door, or just summoning them to the door before the Mission. You used to take one of the Travel options because they had a second effect you had to take first as a prerequisite, and with how tight builds were that prerequisite was a big part of balancing the different options. [Haste] was useful for a lot of combat builds, far more so than [Super Speed]. [Hover], and [Combat Jumping] were useful for helping combat builds get closer to caps. [Recall Friend] was useful in a support way, so [Teleport] was taken by many support players. Each of them affected your choice of Travel effect because you had to take one of them (or a crappy attack from their pool) to get your Travel option. Now that you don't have to do that anymore players are still dipping into Teleportation to get [Recall Friend] just like they're still dipping into the Speed Pool to get [Hasten]. Do we want to discourage that? I think we shouldn't discourage that. Moving [Recall Friend] away from the first few abilities is a bad idea. This is the rare kind of pick someone will still dip into the pool for a single pick.

 

2: [Teleport] is the worst Travel capability, precisely because [Teleport] is inherently broken as $#!+. We're talking about just vanishing from where you are and showing up somewhere else. Ignoring space is fucking amaze-balls. Literally one of the most important concepts in any 3D space is distance, and [Teleport] effectively lets you turn that off. [Teleport] is unique among the Travel options as being by far the most abusable... almost. The live devs saw this way back in closed beta and they attached the unreasonable Endurance cost precisely to keep players from using [Teleport] in combat, just popping all over the battlefields, and easily kiting everything to their heart's content. The reason [Teleport] has a ridiculous activation cost is the same reason [Super Speed] is suppressed when you hit someone. If the game didn't do that you'd have an inherently better capability that just couldn't be rivaled. The flaws were a fix to a real problem that is still going to exist if we roll back the nerf. [Teleport] is the worst Travel capability, precisely because [Teleport] is inherently broken as $#!+.

 

Any changes that we make need to be mindful of these two concerns. They're real, and they're important to address with our solutions.

 

Thank you so much for reading all of that. Tell us what you feel we can do to keep mindful of these considerations while still bringing the Teleportation Pool into line with the Flight Pool and the Leaping Pool.

[Zepp]

53 minutes ago, n00baka said:

I appreciate you considering that I exist when redesigning the entire teleportation power pool. I feel that moving a T1 pick in a pool to a T4 slot is never a viable option, no matter how few people you believe use it. If you feel a power pool choice needs improving, doing so while in the constraints of its tier is the best, and in my opinion only, option. 

Do you take only recall friend? Because that is the only way that it would significantly affect you.

I understand that the realignment would be a difficult sell, however, I think it affects Long-Range Teleport a great deal more than Recall Friend. On the other hand, putting the defensive movement power as a T5 would be a worse idea. Unfortunately, the Teleport Power Pool was poorly designed from the getgo, making realignment difficult. Staying within the tier system makes it nigh impossible to do well. Thus I threw out the idea knowing that people would oppose it, even though it is likely the better approach. And remember, people who already have characters with only Recall Friend could keep it (so long as they do not respec).

56 minutes ago, Some Random User said:

For some reason I thought the range on [Recall Friend] was set to the maximum value allowable by the engine? Is there such a thing? Can we get confirmation?

There are two or three zones not fully covered by Recall Friend, it could be extended to address those issues.

[Zepp]

1 minute ago, Some Random User said:

Just my perspective; you may be showing confirmation bias. To get what I'm trying to show here, I wanted to show you two pieces by Malcolm Gladwell. Basically, in short, what I'm talking about is this tendency human beings have to kind of presume others are going to make their decisions based on the same experiences we personally have. This isn't about being wrong, this is about how two human beings can come to wildly different decisions based on the same set of information.

You are assuming that I was assuming. I did not assume that it was a single choice pick that is unlikely to be taken. I considered a myriad of issues at hand. One issue is that comparable sets have an offensive, travel, and defensive power in T1-T3. For Teleport, these would TP Foe, TP, and [New Power]. Recall Friend is a good power, but is closer to T4 powers in other power pools than T1. Having the defensive power as a T5 is simply a worse option than moving Recall Friend and LRTP. Any way the powerset is reworked will be controversial.

I understand your point. I know that it would be a difficult decision to do so. I also acknowledge that there are no choices that will not annoy some people. Move TP Foe and you will annoy some people, move Recall Friend and you will annoy some people, place a defensive power as a T5 and you will annoy some people. There is no way to do this that will not be harmful, including leaving it as is.

I have considered that problem. And the question is what is the best option. In this case, aligning the set with other travel powers was the primary reason for my proposal to have TP Foe in the top three rather than Recall Friend. There may be better options (like having T1-T4 not have pre-requisites, and T5 only requiring one other power), but the issue there would be precedent and power creep. So, again, there are no good options, the question is, what is the best option we can come up with. Also Malcolm Gladwell (aside from his heightism) is a good source, but he is not always right. Furthermore, misapplication of his ideas is not reasonable.

[PaxArcana]

34 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Do you take only recall friend? Because that is the only way that it would significantly affect you.

Yeah, um, many of the Taxibot type people did, in fact, take only Recall Friend.

[Some Random User]

2 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Do you take only recall friend? Because that is the only way that it would significantly affect you.

I understand that the realignment would be a difficult sell, however, I think it affects Long-Range Teleport a great deal more than Recall Friend. On the other hand, putting the defensive movement power as a T5 would be a worse idea. Unfortunately, the Teleport Power Pool was poorly designed from the getgo, making realignment difficult. Staying within the tier system makes it nigh impossible to do well. Thus I threw out the idea knowing that people would oppose it, even though it is likely the better approach. And remember, people who already have characters with only Recall Friend could keep it (so long as they do not respec).

Yes. Yes we do. We are using the Teleportation Pool for a different reason.

 

In regards to the second part, let's look at the way other Travel options are laid out and discuss them:

1. A utility effect. [Hover]/[Combat Jumping]/[Haste] - Available at level 4. No other prerequisites.
2. An attack. [Air Superiority]/[Jump Kick]/[Flurry] - Available at level 4. No other prerequisites.
3. A Travel effect. [Fly]/[Super Jump]/[Super Speed] - These used to require level 14 and any other option from the same group. Now available at level 4. No other prerequisites.
4. Something very over the top that is related to the concept of the group. - These used to require level 20 and any two other options from the same group.
5. Something very over the top that is related to the concept of the group. - These were added later. You'll notice they're all "more worth taking" than their older counterpart.

Easy to see what we should do. Let's totally revamp all five of the existing Travel options, top to bottom, soup to nuts. Hell, I wouldn't be against bringing up a special additional screen before level up at level 4 and forcing every toon to select one of the five options for free ([Fly], [Teleport], [Super Jump], [Super Speed], or [Mystic Flight]). At least then we'd know that everyone has a Travel option available to them.

 

Here is what the Teleportation Pool was "meant" to look like:

1. A utility effect. [Recall Friend]
2. An attack. [Teleport Foe]
3. A Travel effect. [Teleport]
4. Something very over the top that is related to the concept of the group. [Group Teleport]/[Long Range Teleport]

Let's fix that:

1. I feel like [Recall Friend] is... fine as a concept? We can mess with the numbers so players feel better about playing a "support" toon.
2. You're all right that [Teleport Foe] sucks. Let's make [Teleport Foe] worth having but not overpowered. That means tinkering with numbers. We can make this a cool effect that's worth taking, we just have to play around with the numbers. Can't have this be a entry-tier effect that is super good, so maybe demote this to T5 and make up an actual attack here? Maybe Super Boy punching the dimensional barrier or something. I'm curious about your thoughts on this.
3. You're all right that [Teleport] needs a buff, but... what do we do? The [Super Speed] kiting problem still exists. We haven't addressed that. Any fix has to take that into consideration.
4. The old T4s? [Group Teleport], [Group Fly], and [Whirlwind] all need more than buffed... They need super buffed. To paraphrase something I heard someone else say, if you want me to take a T4 from the Pool groups, I want them to reach through my screen and ¡@¢% 0≠≠ my eyeballs. If I'm going past the Travel effect I want the equivalent to something from a Primary Powerset at that point. I do feel that [Long Range Teleport] gives me this (though the cooldown and activation should both be halved). Maybe we could buff [Teleport Foe] so much that we can justify moving that effect all the way up here? More options. We can make [Group Teleport] a great way for Masterminds to love their pets around with them. We can replace [Group Teleport] with [Assemble the Team]. When I was new I thought that's what [Group Teleport] did, so I bet some other new players do as well. We can replace [Group Teleport] with an [Afterburner]-like option. That seems to be a popular idea. The only question is what the proposal would do to the other effects, which is exactly the problem. That's why I have a controversial solution... What if we dropped [Long Range Teleport] all the way down to where [Teleport Foe] is? What if we made [Long Range Teleport] with the existing half hour recharge time a T1 option, and buffed the hell out of [Teleport Foe], which we bring up here to T5?

[Some Random User]

10 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Furthermore, misapplication of his ideas is not reasonable.

I am glad to see you enjoy chunky sauce and bitter Pepsi. I will have to discuss this further over private messaging.

[Some Random User]

38 minutes ago, Zepp said:

There are two or three zones not fully covered by Recall Friend, it could be extended to address those issues.

What I'm saying is I thought the live devs had said that the range on [Recall Friend] was the maximum that the game engine allowed ranged effects to have. I thought the fact that they'd made a few zones (such as Independence Port) that were longer than that was because they made the zones they wanted to and just dealt with the flaw in the engine since only one or two things in a few zones were affected.

[Zepp]

A couple things.

 

• I think all T4s should be altered to allow them to be taken with only one other pool power (like Tough).
• I think both Group TP and Group Fly need to be removed and replaced and whirlwind could use an added -ToHit
• I think that Recall Friend is a much stronger power than the other low-tier TP powers/ the proposed Tactical Teleport.

Again, I like being able to get Recall Friend without pre-requisites, but the question is, whether it is the best path forward.

 

 

[Zepp]

40 minutes ago, Some Random User said:

What I'm saying is I thought the live devs had said that the range on [Recall Friend] was the maximum that the game engine allowed ranged effects to have. I thought the fact that they'd made a few zones (such as Independence Port) that were longer than that was because they made the zones they wanted to and just dealt with the flaw in the engine since only one or two things in a few zones were affected.

My policy is ask, and if it can't be done, it can't be done. Remember, the engine has been upgraded since live, so what was possible may differ from what is possible.

[GM Sijin]

I doubt 10K is the max range the engine can handle on the simple reasoning that you can enhance it with range boosts just fine. If the max range was taking range enhancements into account... well, there's probably options still.

Edited September 21, 2019 by GM Sijin
Phone auto'correct'.

[n00baka]

6 hours ago, Zepp said:

Do you take only recall friend? Because that is the only way that it would significantly affect you.

Yes, actually, I do. Often with stealth characters, many support characters, and sometimes my hardy characters. The ones more likely to survive in a TPK. I’m not sure why it’s hard to believe. 

 

Edit: and just to be clear on this point, Recall Friend is literally the only power from that pool I do take. I don’t care for either Teleport or TPFoe, so never even get to the other powers. And even if I did, I still wouldn’t think it a good idea to just toss out the tier order of existing powers. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by n00baka

[Redlynne]

7 hours ago, Zepp said:

Do you take only recall friend? Because that is the only way that it would significantly affect you.

Yes.  There are a LOT of people who only take Recall Friend.

The fact that you will not accept this as fact even after people tell you it is true points to the imperviousness of your confirmation bias.

 

You wouldn't do that ... so therefore NO ONE would ever do that (and they'd be stupid idiots if they did).

 

Um ... sorry ... that's not how reality works.

 

 

 

To flip the scrip on you ever so slightly so you can be on the receiving end of what you're advocating for ...

 

Do you only take Hasten?  Because that is the only way that moving Hasten to the T4 power in Superspeed would affect you.

 

Make-ee sense-ee yet-ee?

 

 

 

There's a reason why I immediately downvoted the idea of moving Recall Friend from the T1 to the T4 power.

The fact that you continue to deny the rationality behind that downvote proves your confirmation bias is STRONG on this issue.

You don't see the problem ... BECAUSE YOU DON'T *SEE* THE PROBLEM.

 

The fact (not opinion, fact) that you Just Don't Get It is your fault ... not ours.  It's been explained to you by multiple people already and you just refuse to accept the explanation as valid.  That failure to comprehend what is put in front of you is your problem, not ours.

 

 

 

Or to put it another way (and slightly more poetically) ... There is more to Teleportation than is dreamt of in your philosophy.

[Yoru-hime]

10 hours ago, Zepp said:

There may be players that currently only take Recall Friend. If this type of player exists, they will lose that option.

From the 4 months in stats posts, here are the numbers at all levels as of September 1 (Team Teleport data not in the original post):

 

Teleportation	Recall Friend	34,265
Teleportation	Teleport	25,523
Teleportation	Teleport Foe	5,735
Teleportation	Long Range Teleport	5,586

 

And at level 50:

 

Teleportation	Recall Friend	9,199
Teleportation	Teleport	2,761
Teleportation	Long Range Teleport	1,703
Teleportation	Teleport Foe	1,393
Teleportation	Team Teleport	673

 

Yes, these players "exist". We don't know who took what with what, but they certainly outnumber Teleport users at level 50 and quite possibly do so at all levels.