rework Teleportation Power Pool Rework

[PaxArcana]

9 hours ago, Some Random User said:

You're all right that [Teleport Foe] sucks. Let's make [Teleport Foe] worth having but not overpowered. That means tinkering with numbers. We can make this a cool effect that's worth taking, we just have to play around with the numbers. Can't have this be a entry-tier effect that is super good, so maybe demote this to T5 and make up an actual attack here? Maybe Super Boy punching the dimensional barrier or something. I'm curious about your thoughts on this.

Teleport Foe is an early staple of every Teleporter MM I make.  Early on, it's especially useful for separating spawns into bite-sized chunks for my less-than-full-half-dozen Henchmen.  If anything, I'd like to see it's inherent accuracy tweaked up a bit, and/or maybe it's recharge sped up.  Otherwise I think it's fine as-is, at least in concept.

[Zepp]

3 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Yes.  There are a LOT of people who only take Recall Friend.

The fact that you will not accept this as fact even after people tell you it is true points to the imperviousness of your confirmation bias.

 

May I be so blunt as to point out that you know that I made characters on live that only used Recall Friend. I know it is a popular power. And I understand that popularity has to be considered when making decisions. However, what I do not agree with is that popularity is the only issue that needs to be considered. Let me be clear. I know where all y'all are coming from. I am just pointing out the reality that even though it is not popular, having Recall Friend as a T4 (with the caveat that it is like Tough, requiring only one other power), may be the best of many bad options.

[Zepp]

1 hour ago, PaxArcana said:

Teleport Foe is an early staple of every Teleporter MM I make.  Early on, it's especially useful for separating spawns into bite-sized chunks for my less-than-full-half-dozen Henchmen.  If anything, I'd like to see it's inherent accuracy tweaked up a bit, and/or maybe it's recharge sped up.  Otherwise I think it's fine as-is, at least in concept.

Most of the discussion around Teleport Foe has been around the need to have it marked as "never causes aggro" with some discussion about the idea of cutting down the recharge time. There has also been discussion about expanding it to multiple targets and/or adding stun or damage to it, but that has not gained much support.

[Replacement]

I agree with whoever said to combine recall friend and teleport foe into one power with a fast cast time (same as regular teleport) and a low cooldown. 

 

If no one said that, then I did.

 

EDIT: and extensions to teleport's hover are only acceptable if the Descend key ("x") immediately cancels it.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Replacement

[Yoru-hime]

6 minutes ago, Zepp said:

 

May I be so blunt as to point out that you know that I made characters on live that only used Recall Friend. I know it is a popular power. And I understand that popularity has to be considered when making decisions. However, what I do not agree with is that popularity is the only issue that needs to be considered. Let me be clear. I know where all y'all are coming from. I am just pointing out the reality that even though it is not popular, having Recall Friend as a T4 (with the caveat that it is like Tough, requiring only one other power), may be the best of many bad options.

I'm pretty sure Tough is a T3 power. IIRC, the order of the Fighting Pool is Boxing, Kick, Tough, Weave, Cross Punch.

 

I didn't post those numbers as a definitive be-all end-all argument, but because you were talking as though people who would be negatively affected by your ideas were a trivial minority "if this type of player exists". The numbers give a clearer picture of who is going to be affected and how.

 

I guess that my question is this: 

 

Why should Spring Attack cost two prior powers to get, while this seemingly superior version would only cost one?

 

The current Power Pool AoE attacks are Whirlwind (Speed Slot 4), Spring Attack, (Leaping Slot 5) and Cross Punch (Fighting Slot 5). AFAIK, there is no damaging AoE in the Pool Powers that you don't have to invest at least two prior picks get to. It seems to me that your Tactical TP Strike belongs in one of those slots. Especially given that it's both an AoE attack and multiple forms of mitigation rolled into one.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like that this pool is under serious scrutiny and your general idea of a Spring Attack style power seems a lot more appealing than the hot mess that is the later half of the Teleport Pool, but you haven't sold me on the idea that the best way forward is to penalize a very large percentage of the current users when it seems like replacing Team Teleport with this in Slot 4 would be more balanced with the existing pools.

[Megajoule]

15 hours ago, Zepp said:

There may be players that currently only take Recall Friend. If this type of player exists, they will lose that option. There has already been a good amount of discussion of the need to keep the power ST, even though there is an equal desire for a team version in addition.

"may be"?  "If they exist"?

Yeah, sorry, but IMO, you have just disqualified yourself from talking about this pool at all.

[Zepp]

3 hours ago, Megajoule said:

"may be"?  "If they exist"?

Yeah, sorry, but IMO, you have just disqualified yourself from talking about this pool at all.

So, by stating the reality that prior to this statement I had no evidence that this playstyle was still being used disqualifies me? There may be players out there that only take TP Foe, or only take TP. I am not sure if they exist, but there is that probability. Does acknowledging the probability that these players exist while also acknowledging that I do not know if they exist also disqualify me?

I apologize for being frank and honest and making a proposal that was designed to fix a problem and make a set better without placing your preferences above the rest of the community.

[Zepp]

4 hours ago, Yoru-hime said:

because you were talking as though people who would be negatively affected by your ideas were a trivial minority

Find a post where I ever said that. The data was appreciated, but I already addressed that argument.

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, Zepp said:

So, by stating the reality that prior to this statement I had no evidence that this playstyle was still being used disqualifies me?

You weren't stating reality.

You were substituting your BIASED OPINION for any semblance of reality and then for all intents and purposes DARING people to call you on it.

 

Well, you've been called to account ... and the result wasn't good (for your biased opinion that you keep repeatedly trying to pass off as reality ... real reality be damned).

6 hours ago, Megajoule said:

"may be"?  "If they exist"?

Yeah, sorry, but IMO, you have just disqualified yourself from talking about this pool at all.

Agreed.

Zepp, you've lost standing to make assertions "with authority" with respect to this topic.

Please accept your loss and move on.

[Zepp]

@Redlynne I stated that I currently lacked evidence of a certain playstyle existing in the current context of the game. I now have evidence of that playstyle. This does not change anything, in reality, as I already acknowledged that this may be an issue for that specific playstyle. I have also, repeatedly, defended the basis for my proposal. The only responses I have received are based on either on popularity or personal play style. As I have stated, I have had toons in the past that have utilized this playstyle. That being said, I asserted that despite the existence and possible popularity of that playstyle, a change may still be in the broader interest of the game. There has been little substantial refutation of this position.

In other words, rather than attacking me, and making unfounded accusations of my "bias", perhaps attempt formulating positions as to why a different order is preferable.

43 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Zepp, you've lost standing to make assertions "with authority" with respect to this topic.

At what point did I assert "authority" on the topic. I have a lot of experience with the pool. Likely more than many of those attacking me. I have had toons with just Recall Friend, just TP Foe, just TP, and toons with all five of the powers before respeccing out of TP Team. That being said, I have not, nor would I ever argue from authority. Arguments from authority tend to be weak because they tend to lack support.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Zepp

[Some Random User]

Go be fair, let's try to be nice to each other. None of the parties involved are going to be making sweeping autocratic changes to the game any time soon. This is about theory, so let's keep the discussion cordial.

 

There are two groups of players using the Teleportation Pool:

1. Players who, like myself, actually like taking more than one effect in the Teleportation Pool, which is not the competitive way to play. This started the conversation about the need for buffs or reworks, which is the conversation move of the thread's posts have been on.
2. Players dipping in for a single effect, [Recall Friend]. Like those using [Haste] in the Speed Pool, they represent the majority of players. Getting them to switch to using [Teleport] as their Travel pick may be a topic we can discuss. Let's try having that conversation next. I'd like to hear from those users.

What is currently turning you off from the Teleportation Pool?

[Some Random User]

13 hours ago, Replacement said:

I agree with whoever said to combine recall friend and teleport foe into one power with a fast cast time (same as regular teleport) and a low cooldown. 

...

extensions to teleport's hover are only acceptable if the Descend key ("x") immediately cancels it.

This is a fun post.

 

If they don't mess with any numbers at all, I don't understand why they wouldn't have just combined [Recall Friend] and [Teleport Foe] other than not knowing how to make an attack in the Teleportation Pool and "settling" on pulling an enemy to the toon. I've always thought a novelty long distance attack with the Melee tag instead of the Ranged tag would have been a cute idea. If the other conversation in the thread about adding an A.o.E. attack could be carried out they should put a T4 "click out in the world" A.o.E. attack with the animated fist from Psychic Melee shoving up out of the ground. That would be hilarious. Wormhole-fist-from-below! Hit a smallish A.o.E. but get counted as a Melee tag instead of an A.o.E. because your toon is punching them through a wormhole on the ground. This means we need to account for the options getting shuffled a bit, and lower [Long Range Teleport] all the way down to where [Teleport Foe] had been to compensate. Fixed!

 

My own fix of a weirdo Teleportation Pool:

1. "Summon" - No need to buff (?). Works like [Recall Friend] when targeting a teammate; [Teleport Foe] when targeting an enemy.
2. "Long Range Teleport" - If (and only if) this is lowered to front row options, then no need to buff.
3. "Teleport" - Probably needs some kind of a buff; Players should discuss that. You can figure out where for me. What keeps players from taking this Travel option?
4. "Wormhole-fist-from-below" - You click for a small A.o.E. somewhere in the world (think [Fireball] size). Your toon punches the ground and a big fist flies up out of the ground, creating a Melee attack against anyone in the small area. Unusually high Magnitude Knockdown but low damage.
5. "Assemble the Team" - Since this is high up on the list we can justify out-of-combat activation paired with no meaningful activation time, a low Endurance cost, and something like a three minute recharge.

[n00baka]

59 minutes ago, Some Random User said:

What is currently turning you off from the Teleportation Pool?

So I like this question a lot. For me, Recall Friend is the only reason to dip into the pool (and usually if I don’t have something else I want more at that level). 

 

TPFoe: A ranged pull power. Useful, if every AT besides Stalker didn’t already have a ranged way of getting someone’s attention, and usually better. From Taunt to Snipes, there’s nothing for me in this power. Others might have a better use I don’t consider, and I hope they do because I’d like to know. Maybe it’s a diamond in the rough for me. 

 

Teleport: Doesn’t really do it as a combat trick, the Hovering removes mobility, and there’s a whole other thread on that aspect. As for traveling, it’s a bit to involved for me. Fly is my go-to, and I’m happy with it. 

 

Group Teleport: Just... I mean really. 

 

Long Range Teleport: To far into the pool for me to bother with. And it’s a nice power, but not something I feel like I have to have to get around with all the other options that exist.  

[PaxArcana]

6 hours ago, n00baka said:

Others might have a better use I don’t consider, and I hope they do because I’d like to know. Maybe it’s a diamond in the rough for me. 

For a mastermind, when there's a couple spawns too close together to fight separately just by ordering their pets to attack, TP-Foe can be used to very carefully aggro only ONE of those spawns - and, indeed, can also be used to make a tough SINGLE spawn more manageable, by pulling in, and defeating or seriously weakening, one of it's mobs before the others can reach their own attack range.

[Zepp]

2 hours ago, Some Random User said:

Go be fair, let's try to be nice to each other. None of the parties involved are going to be making sweeping autocratic changes to the game any time soon. This is about theory, so let's keep the discussion cordial.

 

There are two groups of players using the Teleportation Pool:

1. Players who, like myself, actually like taking more than one effect in the Teleportation Pool, which is not the competitive way to play. This started the conversation about the need for buffs or reworks, which is the conversation move of the thread's posts have been on.
2. Players dipping in for a single effect, [Recall Friend]. Like those using [Haste] in the Speed Pool, they represent the majority of players. Getting them to switch to using [Teleport] as their Travel pick may be a topic we can discuss. Let's try having that conversation next. I'd like to hear from those users.

What is currently turning you off from the Teleportation Pool?

Thank you. (although which group is the majority is not yet established, let us, to be accurate, state that a significant number of players are taking the pool for a single power).

 

Your proposed set is interesting. I like Replacement's proposal. Given that Enflame allows either a friend or a foe to be targeted, it should be possible. (just add "never causes aggro" tag as well). The only concern I have is that Recall Friend has a range of 10k, and TP Foe has a range of 200 (and recently it seems like it is requiring line of site as well). Can you have one range for Friends and another for Foes in the same power?

 

[Zepp]

Alright, I went through the thread and am trying to get some of the best ideas for the rework:

T₁; Recall: Can target enemy (range 200) or friend (range 20,000), brings target to caster, never causes aggro. Cast time around 3s (no interrupt) and recharge around 4s. [Cast time and Recharge needs more discourse]

On 9/21/2019 at 1:08 AM, Replacement said:

I agree with whoever said to combine recall friend and teleport foe into one power with a fast cast time (same as regular teleport) and a low cooldown. 

 

If no one said that, then I did.

T₂: Tactical Teleport: Short range 30' Teleport with a 30s unstackable defense buff (similar level to combat jumping) and Teleport resistance.

On 9/15/2019 at 12:39 PM, Zepp said:

There have been several types of ideas that have come up over the years. One is a simple short-range TP with minimal animation time, short range, and low endurance cost. There is also the possibility of adding a 15-30s non-stacking defensive buff to the power to give it similar stats to combat jumping. A different way to approach this would be to not have a TP power per se, but a displacement toggle. This would mean that you are constantly teleporting and thus making yourself more difficult to hit. This would include a minor universal movement bonus, but it would not give you the Nightcrawler feel.

T₃: Teleport: 3-5 endurance per TP, 6s hover after TP cancelled by movement.

On 9/13/2019 at 8:10 PM, GM Sijin said:

Counter suggestion (though probably much more difficult to implement):

Teleport grants you ~6 seconds of hover after the teleport. However, if you activate any movement it's cancelled immediately.

T₄: Long-Range Teleport: Expand the number of choices to include most zones and current mission.

1 hour ago, General Idiot said:

Add all zones plus options for base and current mission to Long Range Teleport. Because a power that you're dedicating three slots in your build to get should not be outclassed by P2W powers everyone can have.

T₅: Teleport Assault: Chain attack.

On 9/16/2019 at 12:56 PM, Cooltastic said:

NEW POWER: Teleport Assault: This is a PBAoE attack. No target needed. This ability both phases you out(while immobilizing you) for the duration while damaging up to 10 Foes in a Large Area around you. It has a long cooldown(Maybe 2mins) and a duration of about 3.5 seconds. The FX would be a normal teleport FX around your character while your character vanishes completely until reappearing in the same spot. Effected Enemies will be hit with large puffs of teleport smoke FX repeatedly for the duration, they just need to be sporadic in nature to make it look as if your teleporting around to each one.

 

I think this sounds reasonable, and it allows people to continue to have access to all current powers with the same current requirements. It also addresses both the need for a defensive and more clearly offensive power. It is not overpowered, but each power could be reasonably desirable.

As always, I'm open for discussion about these ideas, but I would definitely be happy if something like this was the end result of the rework.

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Zepp

[Heraclea]

On 9/15/2019 at 12:43 AM, Zepp said:

Sorry, I had confused Assemble the Team and Team Teleport. I think it would just be better to change Team Teleport to Recall Team and eliminate Recall Friend.

 

No.  While having Team Teleport work like Assemble the Team is a good idea, you shouldn't have to invest three powers in a pool to get it.  Recall Friend is a bit slower but it gets the job done. 

[Cooltastic]

2 hours ago, Zepp said:

Alright, I went through the thread and am trying to get some of the best ideas for the rework:

T₁; Recall: Can target enemy (range 200) or friend (range 20,000), brings target to caster, never causes aggro. Cast time around 3s (no interrupt) and recharge around 4s. [Cast time and Recharge needs more discourse]

T₂: Tactical Teleport: Short range 30' Teleport with a 30s unstackable defense buff (similar level to combat jumping) and Teleport resistance.

T₃: Teleport: 3-5 endurance per TP, 6s hover after TP cancelled by movement.

T₄: Long-Range Teleport: Basically no change.

T₅: Teleport Assault: Chain attack.

 

I think this sounds reasonable, and it allows people to continue to have access to all current powers with the same current requirements. It also addresses both the need for a defensive and more clearly offensive power. It is not overpowered, but each power could be reasonably desirable.

As always, I'm open for discussion about these ideas, but I would definitely be happy if something like this was the end result of the rework.

 

+1 to this. Sounds just about perfect.

 

The ONLY thing I would nit pick on would be the Tactical Teleport. I rather not HAVE to teleport in order to get the defensive buff. Can't we just turn it into another toggle with the same low Def/low Cost that Combat Jump and Combat Fly have? I also wouldn't mind including some kind of lasting FX on your character when the buff is on. Maybe a sort of after image effect.

[tidge]

I've used the Teleportation pool on both live and Homecoming, so I can share some thoughts:

 

Recall Friend: I have barely had the chance or need to use this on Homecoming. On Live, it was primarily used for specific 'get to the end' missions or in cases of player defeats where the player couldn't rez safely. Both of these (and easy travel options for zone crossing) has reduced it's usefulness. I have also not been able to get it to work reliably for pets that have been stuck or otherwise left behind.

 

Teleport Foe: My favorite power of the set. This may seem odd to some players, but I find it as useful as a Taunt as it is to catch runners/ isolate targets. My attitude may just be as a result of playing the power as it is and not having a preconceived notion of how it should work. I dislike it's base accuracy.

 

Teleport: My least favorite travel power. I dislike the endurance cost. I miss the precision of the other travel powers. Going long distances in straight path is ok, but that is only a fraction of what I want to do when traveling.

 

Team Teleport: The utility has always been limited, so I have never taken it... or if I have I respecced out of it.

 

Long Range Teleport: Even as a veteran player on live I loved this power. However, my time on Homecoming made me realize this is simply not a necessary power. There are just too many easy ways to get across the universe (SG bases, P2W powers, LFG hacks, etc) that I have long dropped this as a power choices. It also bothers me that the Hazard zones are not valid targets for the power.

 

I always resist offering suggestions, but I do feel that there is at least one unnecessary power (LRT) and possibly a second. I think LRT should be replaced with *something*, either a damaging attack of somekind or something like a status/debuff. As of now, the pool is one of the most boring choices and worse yet if this is your Travel power pool there may not be a good second power for you to take!

 

[Zepp]

8 hours ago, Cooltastic said:

+1 to this. Sounds just about perfect.

 

The ONLY thing I would nit pick on would be the Tactical Teleport. I rather not HAVE to teleport in order to get the defensive buff. Can't we just turn it into another toggle with the same low Def/low Cost that Combat Jump and Combat Fly have? I also wouldn't mind including some kind of lasting FX on your character when the buff is on. Maybe a sort of after image effect.

Read the latter half of the quoted text for the T₃ power. It sounds like that is what you are interested in. I included the prior as it had gained slightly more support, e.g.:

On 9/15/2019 at 8:21 PM, GM Sijin said:

• Change it to be a fast activating, short range, no hover team teleport that grants a large short duration (~3-5 seconds) global defense bonus with a moderate (~45-75 seconds, or ~12-20 that can't be enhanced) cooldown.

I think, if everyone agrees on the other three powers, a broader discussion of the T₃ and T₅ may be the best path forward for this thread.

 

---

T₃: Short-range TP with a defensive buff or Defensive toggle with a universal movement buff? (TP Res for both)

T₅: PBAoE, Chain, or TAoE? What sort of damage and visual effects?

[Snakebit]

I think adding a stun or 

fear to TP Foe would make it a lot more attractive. It should take whatever set fits the mez. Maybe  targeted AOE stun at the beginning of the animation that hits the spawn should be considered.

 

I think TP needs a range and cost buff and a knockup PBAOE, damage not required. 

 

The animation, interrupt, recharge and cost of TP Friend needs to be dropped to almost nothing. Its a utility.

 

Team TP needs the same as TP.

[Megajoule]

17 minutes ago, cejmp said:

The animation, interrupt, recharge and cost of TP Friend needs to be dropped to almost nothing. Its a utility.

Utility, IMO, does not and should not come free.

[Zepp]

On 9/15/2019 at 8:21 PM, GM Sijin said:

Changes to Recall Friend, and more so Teleport Foe, can have PvP implications that need to be kept in mind. Recall friend could have the range increased to cover the few zones it isn't 100% reliable in. Either its recharge time or activation time could be reduced somewhat, but not significantly. Activation time has more implications than recharge for both powers.

28 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

46 minutes ago, cejmp said:

The animation, interrupt, recharge and cost of TP Friend needs to be dropped to almost nothing. Its a utility.

Utility, IMO, does not and should not come free.

I thought bringing in an earlier post may help to consider the broader issues surrounding recall friend and TP Foe.

[Some Random User]

I don't understand why we can't improve [Long Range Teleport]. Lower the prerequisites or buff [Long Range Teleport].

[Some Random User]

Players that like [Recall Friend] but don't take [Teleport]: Tell me what would have to change for you to take [Teleport] as your Travel option.