One free travel power at character creation?

[biostem]

25 minutes ago, Jeuraud said:

As for the 1 Free Travel Power at start...

how about you-all quit justifying the Devs choice, and tell me why something that is so iconic to Super Hero/Villain Comics is bad for CoH.

Because you don't start out as fully-realized superman.  It's more like we start as infant/young child superman, who was unusually strong for a kid his age, and perhaps could lift the dog over his head at age 5.  Supes wasn't the way he is now until years, maybe even decades, after his landing on Earth.  Dash would likely have died from a single gunshot, yet he has his superspeed from the get-go.  Our characters have likely survived dozens of gunshots to face by the time we can get superspeed.  Many X-Men characters went until their early teens before having any powers, then spontaneously gained them through some traumatic effect, (or just puberty) - that kind of experience would be more like you using just brawl and sprint until level 12 or so, without leveling up, then suddenly unlocking all those earned powers at once.  And guess what - you can play that way if you want - just play your normal/unempowered self until you've gained enough levels to "start" your superheroic career.

Edited September 24, 2019 by biostem

[boggo2300]

17 minutes ago, Jeuraud said:

You are absolutely right.

Hawkgirl, Dash, Storm, Ironman, Nightcrawler, Shazam, Cyborg, Supergirl, Thor, Red Tornado, Vision, Atom, Silver Surfer, Torch, Homelander, A-Train, Green Lanterns, Angel, ...

sprints everywhere.

Now if you don't get it, I was being sarcastic when I agreed with you.

 

Your opinion does not jive with the opinion of the genera. Sups who is over 80 years old started with Supper Speed and Super Jump, and many of these such as Dash, Angel, and A-Train, are about their travel power.  If you add Gadgets to the Travel Powers then Batman, and Spiderman could also be added to the list. If you add Parkour(Ninja Run) to the Travel Powers then you can add Captain America, and Beast to the list.

 

To say that getting a Travel Power at the start is cheesy is to say that Comics and their Heroes/Villians are cheesy.

 

 

As for the 1 Free Travel Power at start...

how about you-all quit justifying the Devs choice, and tell me why something that is so iconic to Super Hero/Villain Comics is bad for CoH.

How is this one free power going to break the game?

 

By the same logic, can we have all the powers in our primary pool at level 1 for free as well please?

 

not secondaries, I don't want to be greedy!

[Crysta Clear]

Magick carpet, void skiff, hoverboard.

 

Three ways to fly in various thematics without spending a power selection, all of which have disadvantages that still retain the advantage of choosing Flight as a pool power for those that want it.

[Jeuraud]

7 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

By the same logic, can we have all the powers in our primary pool at level 1 for free as well please?

 

not secondaries, I don't want to be greedy!

Your Strawman is not explaining how having a Free Travel Power at start is bad for CoH, so lay it on me, tell my why/how it's bad for CoH.

 

26 minutes ago, biostem said:

And guess what - you can play that way if you want - just play your normal/unempowered self until you've gained enough levels to "start" your superheroic career.

This is City of Heros/Villians... not City of maybe Heros/Villians, and actually I don't have a choice but to play CoH this way.

The Toney Stark in the armor he used to escape in was not Ironman. The Clark Cent in Smallvile was not Superman. The Kitty Pryde in X-Men who ran through the wall was not Shadowcat.

 

I'm done answering justifications for the CoH Devs' choice.

[boggo2300]

11 minutes ago, Jeuraud said:

Your Strawman is not explaining how having a Free Travel Power at start is bad for CoH, so lay it on me, tell my why/how it's bad for CoH.

 

reductio ad absurdum actually not a strawman at all, EVERY argument you have made can be made exactly as validly for getting every power in your Primary Power Pool

[biostem]

28 minutes ago, Jeuraud said:

Your Strawman is not explaining how having a Free Travel Power at start is bad for CoH, so lay it on me, tell my why/how it's bad for CoH.

 

This is City of Heros/Villians... not City of maybe Heros/Villians, and actually I don't have a choice but to play CoH this way.

The Toney Stark in the armor he used to escape in was not Ironman. The Clark Cent in Smallvile was not Superman. The Kitty Pryde in X-Men who ran through the wall was not Shadowcat.

 

I'm done answering justifications for the CoH Devs' choice.

You can withstand multiple gunshots at point blank range, right from the start, and that's even the squishiest ATs.  That armor Stark used to escape the terrorist camp was, in fact, Iron Man mk1.  He even has to revisit this armor in a few comics.  I'm not sure what your reasoning is to say that "The Kitty Pryde in X-Men who ran through the wall was not Shadowcat" - it absolutely was.  Yet at the same time, a single gunshot would kill her, if she didn't time her phasing perfectly.  "Superman" was just the moniker Clark Kent adopted in order to protect himself and those he loved, while he was superheroing.  Now, you could argue that "Clark Kent" was always the moniker, and "Superman" is his true identity, but my point still holds - Clark Kent *is* Superman, (not including one of those alternate realities or "what if's" where they are actually separate people in some literal way).

 

If you don't want to defend your position anymore, that your prerogative, but don't pretend to think that only you have the correct perspective...

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by biostem

[DSorrow]

I really don't see a pressing need for this considering you can already get a travel power by level 4. Getting a travel power for free would also be a form of power creep as that would allow many builds to take an additional power compared to what they have now. If the issue is RP builds, why not just make travel powers available at level 2 so you can then use the primary/secondary powers you're forced to at level 1 and then pick the travel power at level 2?

[Haijinx]

8 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

I really don't see a pressing need for this considering you can already get a travel power by level 4. 

This kind of sums it up really.   You can be level 4 just street sweeping in Atlas park in an hour?  Less?  And that's the slowest way to level probably.  

 

RP-wise just say you didn't need to fly before then.  

 

While I don't think the free power will hurt, I also don't see the reason for it. 

 

The 5 power pools would "hurt" more if that's included, even if I did mention I could see why some people might want it.  

 

[DSorrow]

23 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

This kind of sums it up really.   You can be level 4 just street sweeping in Atlas park in an hour?  Less?  And that's the slowest way to level probably.  

My guess is 15-30 mins if you do any of the starting contacts.

 

24 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

While I don't think the free power will hurt, I also don't see the reason for it. 

Basically this. Tradition is a poor argument to oppose a change, but I haven't seen any convincing arguments for why this should be changed in the first place. The minor power creep currently seems like the best argument which is why I'm against free travel powers. 

[Steampunkette]

3 hours ago, Jeuraud said:

You are absolutely right.

Hawkgirl, Dash, Storm, Ironman, Nightcrawler, Shazam, Cyborg, Supergirl, Thor, Red Tornado, Vision, Atom, Silver Surfer, Torch, Homelander, A-Train, Green Lanterns, Angel, ...

sprints everywhere.

Now if you don't get it, I was being sarcastic when I agreed with you.

 

Your opinion does not jive with the opinion of the genera. Sups who is over 80 years old started with Supper Speed and Super Jump, and many of these such as Dash, Angel, and A-Train, are about their travel power.  If you add Gadgets to the Travel Powers then Batman, and Spiderman could also be added to the list. If you add Parkour(Ninja Run) to the Travel Powers then you can add Captain America, and Beast to the list.

 

To say that getting a Travel Power at the start is cheesy is to say that Comics and their Heroes/Villians are cheesy.

 

 

As for the 1 Free Travel Power at start...

how about you-all quit justifying the Devs choice, and tell me why something that is so iconic to Super Hero/Villain Comics is bad for CoH.

How is this one free power going to break the game?

 

We never get to see Nightcrawler, Hawkgirl, Cyborg, Shazam, Supergirl, Thor, Red Tornado, Vision, Atom, Silver Surfer The Human Torch, or the Green Lanterns at level 1.

 

Hell, Captain Marvel was Powerleveled directly to 50 by the wizard Shazam. He spends half the time of his Origin Stories learning how to use all his high end powers 'cause the wizard didn't give him an instruction manual.

 

Storm? We see her at level 1. She is a thief. Stealing to survive as a kid. And she doesn't get to fly 'til she makes the awesome cape that allows her to fly (Later stories retconned it, but that's why she had the big billowy cape in the first place)

 

You keep looking at 'Level 20' characters in comics and conflating them with level 1 characters, is the problem, here. It's the big reason I tend to PL or DFB my characters to 22 before I even get in-character on them the first time unless they're meant to be street-level heroes who have to grow into their powers narratively.

 

That said, you're definitely right about Dash Parr and Nightcrawler. Their -defining- powers are Superspeed and Teleportation. Which is why over the past decade I've repeatedly pushed for Primary and Secondary Powersets based on the idea of travel powers. Dash is not a 'Street Justice Scrapper' with Superspeed. Dash is a Speedster. That's his one-trick-pony self. Same thing with Nightcrawler's teleporting, or Angel's Flight. Every attack those characters use involves absolutely using their one power in different ways. It would be much better to create an archetype -built- around using those powers and grant that archetype inherent travel power functions than modify the game's balance for niche character concepts.

 

As to the "Justifying the Dev's Choice" that's not on us. That's the status quo. It's how things are. You're the one making waves, here, Jeraud. The burden of proof toward change is on you. You're supposed to convince us to change our position.

[PaxArcana]

6 hours ago, Megajoule said:

Calculate the side-force trying to throw you off that bicycle when you take a corner at 240 mph.  Show your work. 😉

Exactly the same as an ordinary, not-superspeed-ing kid on a bicycle doing ~20mph.

 

Speed = Distance / Time

He didn't alter the Distance part of that equation ... he altered the Time side of it; he could alter his personal interaction with Time itself.  To him, it was like the rest of the universe got put on Slo-Mo; he didn't experience anything differently than an ordinary 14 or 15 year old, reasonably fit boy ... except that slo-mo effect.  And the way momentum (either his own, or something he interacted with) was preserved if he "let go" of the time dilation.

But while he was "pushing" time that way, physics for him worked like they did for any other boy.  It was the entire rest of the universe that worked differently.

 

As I say, not something CoX could model.  😄

[PaxArcana]

5 hours ago, Jeuraud said:

To say that getting a Travel Power at the start is cheesy is to say that Comics and their Heroes/Villians are cheesy.

False equivalency.

 

You have forgotten that Comics and Games operate differently.

 

Look at, say, Spider Man.  After his Origin story, his actual power doesn't really grow.  (Yes, there've been arcs where his powers changed in some way ... but that always gets reset, back to the same powers he had as a recently-spider-munched highschool student).  His personality, his life-experience, his confidence, those things grew.

 

But games can't really model that kind of growth.  What they can model, is a growth in power.  So, we all start off just a little bit better than "generic gang thug with a baseball bat and a pistol", not in possession of our full array of powers.  That power grows, over time - and getting (or not) a travel power is part of that growth.

6 hours ago, Jeuraud said:

how about you-all quit justifying the Devs choice, and tell me why something that is so iconic to Super Hero/Villain Comics is bad for CoH.

How is this one free power going to break the game?

Because CoX is structured a certain way.

 

Champions Online did as you ask - you get a travel power from the moment of creation. But it is limited in application, and not terribly much better than Sprint+CJ is in CoX. It only gets better as you gain levels (and spend upgrade resources - I forget the name of the points used - to buy those powers up to Tier 2 or Tier 3).

 

And, nonetheless, that is not the way City of X is designed to operate.

[PaxArcana]

5 hours ago, Jeuraud said:

The Toney Stark in the armor he used to escape in was not Ironman.

Actually, yes it was.  The cinematic "Mark 1" suit was a nod to the way Iron Man looked in the Silver Age of comics.  Don't believe me?  Cast your eyes on THIS ... the first appearance of Iron Man:

 

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Because CoX is structured a certain way.

 

Champions Online did as you ask - you get a travel power from the moment of creation. But it is limited in application, and not terribly much better than Sprint+CJ is in CoX. It only gets better as you gain levels (and spend upgrade resources - I forget the name of the points used - to buy those powers up to Tier 2 or Tier 3).

 

And, nonetheless, that is not the way City of X is designed to operate.

This is true. Champions Online was designed from the start to give you free travel powers. City of Heroes, however, was designed to make you have to choose a travel power with your limited selection of power choices, and the number of choices you get was set with the expectation that most players would be spending two of them on a Travel power.

[TheAdjustor]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

This is true. Champions Online was designed from the start to give you free travel powers. City of Heroes, however, was designed to make you have to choose a travel power with your limited selection of power choices, and the number of choices you get was set with the expectation that most players would be spending two of them on a Travel power.

That's not so much the case anymore. There's Travel Powers available from P2W that are good enough for the people that want an extra power choice to min max but are kind of crappy on concept.

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, TheAdjustor said:

That's not so much the case anymore. There's Travel Powers available from P2W that are good enough for the people that want an extra power choice to min max but are kind of crappy on concept.

And a level 1 character who is brand new to the game can't use them.

 

It's a Money Sink. Implement this, and the Money Sink stops working.

 

I suggested this idea could be a decent Money Sink early in the thread, but the thread has staggered onward, regardless...

[MunkiLord]

The power creep argument seems like nonsense to me. For people already min/maxing all it will do is give us a travel power. For the people sorta min/maxing, they'll be a little bit stronger, but not surpassing players that currently skip travel powers. My vote is to give a free travel power at character creation, but a little bit worse than the pool versions and they can't take IO sets. It would be a win all the way around.

[TheAdjustor]

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

And a level 1 character who is brand new to the game can't use them.

 

It's a Money Sink. Implement this, and the Money Sink stops working.

 

I suggested this idea could be a decent Money Sink early in the thread, but the thread has staggered onward, regardless...

Actually that's just not so. You can buy one of the "run" powers with a brand new character no money while you are in outbreak.

 

[TheAdjustor]

3 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

The power creep argument seems like nonsense to me. For people already min/maxing all it will do is give us a travel power. For the people sorta min/maxing, they'll be a little bit stronger, but not surpassing players that currently skip travel powers. My vote is to give a free travel power at character creation, but a little bit worse than the pool versions and they can't take IO sets. It would be a win all the way around.

I like that but I would just go with perm temp powers. The jetpacks just need an invisible option.

[Steampunkette]

4 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

The power creep argument seems like nonsense to me. For people already min/maxing all it will do is give us a travel power. For the people sorta min/maxing, they'll be a little bit stronger, but not surpassing players that currently skip travel powers. My vote is to give a free travel power at character creation, but a little bit worse than the pool versions and they can't take IO sets. It would be a win all the way around.

It'll also require either a Travel Power Vendor (Or we could make it a money sink on the P2W vendors) or some sort of pop up window to select your reward, like the DFB Screen, for the task of 'Rolled a character'.

 

IF we did this, I'd vastly prefer it be a 'Temp Power' so you can't edit the appearance of it or spend slots on it at all.

[Hero Star]

I think there's way too much stuff accessible at early levels. I'd like to see travel powers starting at lvl 14 again. But I'm old and nostalgic.

[MunkiLord]

9 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

It'll also require either a Travel Power Vendor (Or we could make it a money sink on the P2W vendors) or some sort of pop up window to select your reward, like the DFB Screen, for the task of 'Rolled a character'.

 

IF we did this, I'd vastly prefer it be a 'Temp Power' so you can't edit the appearance of it or spend slots on it at all.

I'll leave the how to implement up to other people, I have no clue how easy or difficult such a thing would be. You definitely know more than I do. I'm not opposed to influence sinks, but for it to be effective on this suggestion I feel the price would have to be prohibitively expensive to make the idea overall not worthwhile.

 

I like the temp power idea, if only to protect less knowledgeable players from wasting slots on what I envision as inferior versions of pool travel powers. But if they were to be able to slot common IOs, it wouldn't bother me. But I definitely feel restricting free travel powers from slotting sets and not getting the other benefits, like Super Speed's stealth, is the way to go. If someone is going to invest a power pick in a travel power I feel it should be superior in every way. From IO sets, to endurance cost, speed, etc.

[MunkiLord]

2 minutes ago, Hero Star said:

I think there's way too much stuff accessible at early levels. I'd like to see travel powers starting at lvl 14 again. But I'm old and nostalgic.

My nostalgia is for more debt! But the debt and travel power availability changes were good QoL improvements for a lot of people, so I don't think either should be changed back. But if they were, I wouldn't be angry. 

[Steampunkette]

... I just had an idea to make this not only fit concept, but still press towards taking the travel power version:

 

Limited duration use. Not limited uses or it is gone after 5 hours of game time, but the power shuts off.

 

So instead of Superspeed at level 1 you get Speed Burst. It's a click power that increases your run speed significantly, has a recharge time of 10.5 seconds, no animation time, and a 10 second duration. Give it a nominal end cost to use it and give it a 20 second stacking debuff applied to your character: If you use it while you have the Debuff Active you lose 5 more endurance per stack. At 5 max Stacks you'd lose 25 end per use in addition to the nominal fee, making it costly to use while trying to fight.

 

Same thing for Flight. And Superjump. The odd man out being Teleport, but we could give "Short Range Teleport" a 3 second recharge between uses and no hovertar.

 

Still give them lower values than the Real powers. Still make them not Slottable at all. Still make it so you can't change their style.

 

It kills the 'autorun Fly and AFK while you go from North Indy Port to South Indy Port option for people who don't take the travel power, but it still makes them -useful- in niche situations and for RP purposes.

 

Like say you're on a team with a bunch of MMs who are blocking a door and you need to escape before you die but don't have the end to use Teleport? Pop Short Ranged Teleport to get out of the door and the frying pan! got enemies jumping levels in a Warehouse or Arachnos map? Click the Short Flight power to zip up and take care of them for less End per Second than regular Flight.

 

Runner with a Debuff Toggle on him? Click that short duration speed buff and catch up to him before he can get help.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Yoru-hime]

Removing the slot is a bigger deal than it sounds, given the ability to use that slot for things like Stealth or KB protection. It gives the idea of taking the pool power some extra value. I'm not sure if it's enough, though.

 

If I were implementing this, I'd consider making Ninja/Beast Run one of a set of options including a No FX Jetpack, a more concept neutral Sprint+ and other similar, unslottable travel temp powers. You can keep your Ninja Run if you love it, or revoke it and trade it in for one of the others if it fits your concept better like we do with Origin Attacks.