DELETE Hasten, SLIGHTLY ALTER all enemies, SLIGHTY ALTER all player powers

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

Having a degree in something doesn't make you good at it - it just means you managed to retain and regurgitate the requisite information.  You seem hyper focused on this idea that "if it doesn't affect you personally, then it's not a problem", and that's simply a myopic approach to take.  As for your fire blaster example - they trade more damage for other potentially useful effects in their powers.  You deflect deflect deflect, but can't seem to grasp how a meta-power with such a huge benefit can be a problem.

It doesn't make them bad at it either just because you disagree with them.

[biostem]

Just now, Infinitum said:

It doesn't make them bad at it either just because you disagree with them.

Correct;  The reasons I gave make them bad at it.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

Teams.  TEAMS.  So if 8 people take it AND they slot it, then it's really good.  Not the same.

It kinda is because it can make a team nearly invulnerable with one power choice.

[Moka]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

Having a degree in something doesn't make you good at it.

You have to be good at it to get the degree, though.

 

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

Teams.  TEAMS.  So if 8 people take it AND they slot it, then it's really good.  Not the same.

But you were already talking about "relative" to other people. I figured teaming was the point of people choosing it versus those who don't.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Moka

[Corruption]

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Maneuvers is unbeatable on teams built around it, nothing hits you.

 

You can only attack as fast as the animation times will allow, maneuvers especially stacked maneuvers allows 100% dodge 100% of the time.

 

Hasten may recharge faster but you are still limited by animation times.

It's really not that good. I'd rather have a single Cold on a team rather than having a team of 8 with maneuvers. 

[Xenotunak]

Love using my hasten ability 

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

Correct;  The reasons I gave make them bad at it.

Your position can't prove hasten is breaking the game.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Infinitum said:

It kinda is because it can make a team nearly invulnerable with one power choice.

The entire defense calculation was a horrible design choice.

 

But changing it now just seems nuts.  

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Moka said:

You have to be good at it to get the degree, though.

 

But you were already talking about "relative" to other people. I figured teaming was the point of people choosing it versus those who don't.

Exactly

[DR_Mechano]

As mentioned the only way I support this is if Hasten becomes an Inherent with NO CHANGES available at level 2 for all characters. There..now everybody gets it. Those that have it already don't see a change, those that don't have it suddenly get Hasten. Job done. End of discussion. Like Munkilord unless this is on the table then I'm not interested my goals do not mesh with people talking about nerfing hasten our goals do not much since I think it's a stupid idea in the first place.

[MunkiLord]

4 minutes ago, Waypoint said:

I think we should delete all the underutilized powers and archetypes from the flavor of the month thread.

So I know you're joking and this would obviously be terrible if it were to happen. But I would prefer that to removing hasten and accepting a nerf on my global recharge.

[Weylin]

I think we should remove set bonus enhancements and all power pools except for mutually exclusive travel powers.

Take that liberals 😎👌

[TheAdjustor]

15 minutes ago, biostem said:

Which has a constant end cost and provides a much smaller bonus.

hmmm ?  Not getting this. 

 

One hasten has fixed cost / 2 minutes it also has a variable cost in that while it does allow you to fire off your stronger powers more often, those same powers cost more end upping your end usage.

 

A single Maneuvers can nearly double your survivability . Going from 40% defense to 45% is an enormous boost. If you have a whole team taking leadership it's a ridiculous advantage

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Moka said:

You have to be good at it to get the degree, though.

No.  You have to be persistent and able to memorize and regurgitate.  Would you really want to be operated on by a doctor who got a C or C- in medschool?

 

3 minutes ago, Moka said:

But you were already talking about "relative" to other people. I figured teaming was the point of people choosing it versus those who don't.

No, the difference is that hasten is a great power, full stop.  Maneuvers is a good power under specific circumstances.  Quite different.

[MetaVileTerror]

Gotta hand it to Steampunkette for this thread, though.  Over 150 replies in 3 hours.  Although, I suppose it's a good thing that negative Reputation was removed as a mechanic in the forum . . . 

[Rathulfr]

4 minutes ago, Waypoint said:

I think we should delete all the underutilized powers and archetypes from the flavor of the month thread.

Now you're just being silly. 🤣

 

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Your position can't prove hasten is breaking the game.

Nice shifting of the goalposts.

[Davy]

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

Correct;  The reasons I gave make them bad at it.

This individual has that big brain intellect I warned you about.

 

Better back off AA before you get turbo bullied.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Davy said:

This individual has that big brain intellect I warned you about.

 

Better back off AA before you get turbo bullied.

Mmm.  Nothing like a little ad hominem to get a conversation going right.

Edited September 25, 2019 by biostem

[AerialAssault]

9 minutes ago, biostem said:

Which, as your post pointed out, is only the case in very specific cases;  Hasten is *always* a benefit to have, and provides a much greater buff than the 3-6% or so defense maneuvers grats.  Hasten is great solo, hasten is great on teams, hasten is great full stop.

I agree that Hasten is a great power. I don't think anyone could disagree.

 

I do warrant that there could be an alternative. Maybe as an inherent recharge buff to all characters of either 50% or 60%, but certainly no lower than that.

 

It should not face any seriously drastic actions beyond that however.

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

Having a degree in something doesn't make you good at it - it just means you managed to retain and regurgitate the requisite information.  You seem hyper focused on this idea that "if it doesn't affect you personally, then it's not a problem", and that's simply a myopic approach to take.  As for your fire blaster example - they trade more damage for other potentially useful effects in their powers.  You deflect deflect deflect, but can't seem to grasp how a meta-power with such a huge benefit can be a problem.

Hey I didn't bust my ass for three years to *not* say I have a degree in something.

 

What I'm trying to put across is that Hasten does not break the game in a way that actively disrupts the enjoyment of other players. Does it really bother you that much that someone, somewhere, is doing Bigger Numbers? If Hasten was letting people do things that people don't already do, then this would be an open-and-shut case. But City of Heroes has always had a very high power bar. Characters in other MMOs and RPGs could only dream of doing a tenth of what characters here can do. What the core suggestion here would entail is lowering that bar for no good reason.

 

Also "potentially useful effects". What could be more useful than literally wiping a group of enemies off the face of the earth? Debuffs? Doesn't matter, they're dead. Buff teammates? All the enemies are dead. There is nothing more useful than Damage, because you can Debuff an enemy all you want, if you don't debuff their health you'll never win.

[DSorrow]

17 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

I still honestly do not see the issue with Hasten.

I don't want Hasten nerfed for purely selfish reasons, but there's no way I could argue there isn't an issue when Hasten is in its own tier of good among pool powers. I'm not a game designer, but to me it would make sense that everything within category (melee powersets, pool powers, ranged T3 blasts, etc.) would be in the same ballpark. Perfect balance is obviously impossible and some things would always have better synergy with specific builds.

 

Looking at the issue from another angle, I think things like Presence Power Pool and Ice Armor could use some tuning upwards because they aren't in the same ballpark as their peers. You could just argue that "someone can just CC better than you, so what" or "someone just takes hits better than you, so what", but somehow that doesn't really seem like a sufficient argument to not enforce parity.

 

But repeating it just in case, any changes to Hasten that would have a negative impact on my builds is a no from me. There definitely is an issue with Hasten, but I'm not willing to fix it at the expense of all my builds.

Edited September 25, 2019 by DSorrow

[Rathulfr]

3 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Gotta hand it to Steampunkette for this thread, though.  Over 150 replies in 3 hours.  Although, I suppose it's a good thing that negative Reputation was removed as a mechanic in the forum . . . 

She stole my thunder!

Again!

(not really, but it's funnier that way)

[Haijinx]

Ill agree hasten was a bad idea.

 

But its part of the game now.  

 

 

[biostem]

1 minute ago, AerialAssault said:

What I'm trying to put across is that Hasten does not break the game in a way that actively disrupts the enjoyment of other players.

Hasten "breaks the game" insofar as it essentially allows you to bypass restrictions that were put in place and allow you to not have to worry about taking or slotting other powers.  Why bother taking non-mandatory lower-tier powers when you can just take hasten and use higher tier ones?  How would you react to them saying that a whole slew of powers would no longer benefit from global recharge bonuses?  You could still slot the power directly for recharge, but it wouldn't benefit from hasten and all those other global recharge buffs?  Meta-powers are insanely powerful, and should be granted very sparingly and with great consideration for their impact on all other aspects of the game.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

Nice shifting of the goalposts.

Aaaand here we go again.... lol

 

You cant prove its breaking the game.

 

If it isnt breaking the game why even discuss it if you are replacing it with the same or similar thing?