DELETE Hasten, SLIGHTLY ALTER all enemies, SLIGHTY ALTER all player powers

[Snakebit]

6 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

I've honestly dropped it on quite a few characters. What am I taking it for on my sentinel? So I can inferno 2 seconds faster? Hell, stopping to actually talk with my teammates takes more time. Players usually arent functioning close near peak performance.

 

Your mistake is looking at the effect on only one power. And the recharge buff to Inferno isn't 2 second from Hasten, it's 38 seconds.

[Zepp]

14 minutes ago, cejmp said:

Your mistake is looking at the effect on only one power. And the recharge buff to Inferno isn't 2 second from Hasten, it's 38 seconds.

38s if you have it unslotted and zero global recharge (pre-Hasten). For slotting it with a purple set it is only 12s. For slotting with a purple set and 110 overall global (pre-Hasten), it is a 6s difference. For slotting with a purple set and 210 overall global recharge (pre-Hasten), it is just over a 2s difference. So, depending on context, it could be 38s or 2s... it is usually between 4-6s difference for most builds.  That being said, a lot of builds are looking at Hasten for just one or two powers. Many more grab extra global recharge just to get Hasten to cap...

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

 

 

How much work are we talking about here? (Let's forget the MASSIVE blowback from enraged players) I can't get my head around the idea of removing Hasten, putting in some arbitrary buff to Recharge and THEN worry about rebalancing EVERYTHING. Dozens of sets...hundreds of powers to work with.

 

I imagine that the new balance would be seen as a feature, not a bug.  

 

The game definitely would get a bit harder for most people.

 

Im convinced nerfing Hasten would have been a great idea once upon a time.

 

Its just too late.

 

 

[Snakebit]

17 minutes ago, Zepp said:

38s if you have it unslotted and zero global recharge (pre-Hasten). For slotting it with a purple set it is only 12s. For slotting with a purple set and 110 overall global (pre-Hasten), it is a 6s difference. For slotting with a purple set and 210 overall global recharge (pre-Hasten), it is just over a 2s difference. So, depending on context, it could be 38s or 2s... it is usually between 4-6s difference for most builds.  That being said, a lot of builds are looking at Hasten for just one or two powers. Many more grab extra global recharge just to get Hasten to cap...

The threas is about nerfing Hasten. I understand you can get global recharge with sets. But if I want to use those slots for something else them this proposed change nerfs the 38 seconds on inferno which means I have no choice but to slot recharge. Why is that better?

 

 

[Zepp]

29 minutes ago, cejmp said:

The threas is about nerfing Hasten. I understand you can get global recharge with sets. But if I want to use those slots for something else them this proposed change nerfs the 38 seconds on inferno which means I have no choice but to slot recharge. Why is that better?

If you slot Inferno it will only receive a 12s boost if you have no other global recharge. 38s (37.06s is actually the maximum benefit) is only for a build with no global recharge and no recharge slotting for Inferno... In that case you have a lot more options than Hasten. Slotting Recharge will cut it by 45s. At that point Hasten only offers a 12s boost. If you have 100 global recharge, which is fairly easy with few compromises, you are looking at only 6s. So most builds are less than 6s benefit from Hasten. Yes, that means going from 30s to 24.4s, but it is not 34s. Saying 34s is extremely misleading. 2s is slightly misleading. 4-6s is the most accurate accounting of the actual benefit of Hasten for a 90s recharge attack.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Zepp

[Bossk_Hogg]

1 hour ago, cejmp said:

 

Your mistake is looking at the effect on only one power. And the recharge buff to Inferno isn't 2 second from Hasten, it's 38 seconds.

Sure, I get a .2whogivesacrap second recharge reduction to blaze too! 

 

The amount of recharge needed for perma hasten in many builds more or less makes hasten redundant. I would bet a large chunk of the people taking hasten are only doing it because "conventional wisdom" says they should. When you actually look at what hasten does for many end game builds, it honestly isnt amazing unless there is simply a power you always need on. 

 

I would also bet most of those builds aren't even taking advantage of the hasten. It's great for theorycrafting and posting pylon times where you execute a dps rotation against a blob with robo efficiency, but once you pause a moment to talk, pee, grab a drink, or herd the cat off the desk, it's probably negligible for perma hasten builds. And you're burning endurance with the crash. 

 

I really see no reason to jack with what isnt broke simply because it offends forum busybodies that too many people take the same power. The real issue should be that most pool powers are trash. I'm more excited about Wall of Force in the new Force of Will set, coupled with a Force Feedback proc for sets without a KB to slot it in. 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Bossk_Hogg]

57 minutes ago, cejmp said:

The threas is about nerfing Hasten. I understand you can get global recharge with sets. But if I want to use those slots for something else them this proposed change nerfs the 38 seconds on inferno which means I have no choice but to slot recharge. Why is that better?

 

 

I don't see an issue with sloting recharge in an awesome power that can take awesome set bonuses...

[QuiJon]

9 hours ago, TheAdjustor said:

Actually we do. It's around 150k out of the 911k this is something the OP actually brought up.

 

Just not in this thread for some reason

 

Hmmmmm

So probably roughly the same amount of the 911k characters that have taken the fighting pool, or the leadership pool have taken hasten, wow I can see why they think it is a problem.

[Steampunkette]

17 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

And so here we are...with the same suggestion..the same amount of backlash only this time if I don't like the choice it's not a case of "Well there is only one CoH, so this change I completely disagree with went through but I've got nowhere else to go", nah...I can go elsewhere, like, for example, the CoXg or Rebirth servers. You're basically saying "lets do the massive change that causes huge upheaval and will probably generate a huge backlash...for the sake of 'balance' that doesn't actually need to happen...and drive the people who like how things are operating elsewhere on to servers that still have Hasten the way it is"

 

Why bother and why now of all times?

 

Blizzard lost people to the numerous Classic or expansion specific private servers because of their infamous 'you think you do but you don't' (in response to official classic servers) because they kept making silly changes and it was only when the noticed the figures of possible revenue (they would not have bothered with Classic servers if they couldn't make any money off of it)  that they relented.

 

From what I'm seeing of these proposed Hasten changes is "You think you like Hasten the way it is but you don't," and that ain't convincing me.

Why bother? I've explained.

 

Why now? Because it wasn't done on Live.

 

What if people leave to the other servers? Any change to any system that isn't a flat buff is going to risk that. Any power that gets removed, or severely altered. Any Archetype that gets short-shifted by some alteration. Sentinel's getting a massive rework. People who love Sentinel as it is, now, are going to get angry and leave.

 

But you don't make the game better or healthier by leaving in massive feedback loops of power and pretending it'll either go away or somehow be fine.

 

17 hours ago, Vanden said:

You know, it’s occurred to me that this whole thing might be based on faulty information. This thread was started when it was brought up that about 53k of the ~60k level 50 characters have Hasten. But there’s over 911k characters on Homecoming. Think about it: the players who care most about about min-maxing are also the ones most likely to get characters to 50. We only know the power pool statistics at 50. The more casual players, the ones who aren’t as likely to get a character to 50, how many of them are taking Hasten? We literally don’t know.

You're wrong. And the fact that you're wrong was covered in the first page of this thread.

 

155,593 players had Hasten between levels 4 and 50. The only Pool Power that is more popular is Flight at 182,678. Third place is Superjump with 129,071. Then Combat Jumping at 93k and Superspeed at 84k.

 

In the "Add Recharge to Swift" thread I initially used that data to try and deflate the idea that Hasten was overrepresented, because while it was the second most used power pool there was, it still represented around 1/8th of the playerbase which wasn't a majority. TheAdjustor pointed out that 83% of level 50s use it.

 

So players who aren't 50 who use Hasten? 102,013. Which still puts them ahead of the total number of Combat Jumpers including 50s. And Superspeeders including 50. And all other power pools at all level ranges except Flight and Superjump.

 

It's a massive outlier in popularity.

 

14 hours ago, Cooltastic said:

All I have to say on this subject is this...

 

The part I highlighted from the OP is what they're going after, but it's just not going to happen. @Steampunkette You want to have the devs spend time altering hasten and making these suggest changes in THE HOPE that less people will choose hasten, but that's just not going to happen. MOST pool powers aren't all that attractive. I can't speak for everyone but I know I'd still end up taking hasten on the majority of my chars (even if it only provided +10% recharge), over most of what the other pools have to offer. So many other pool powers need to be worked on and improved before we should even be thinking about making changes to hasten. Maybe if we were given NEW pool powers to choose from then less people would think about taking hasten. Basically what I'm trying to say Hasten is always taken because it alone is a MUST HAVE, sometime's it's because it's one of the few pool choices that isn't complete garbage aswell.

 

So right now I think the dev focus would be better spent elsewhere to actually improve the gaming experience.

"Hasten is always taken because it alone is a MUST HAVE"

 

And there it is, folks. That's the problem. The power is simply too damned good.

 

Tell me, Cooltastic, what could we do to, say, the Stealth power that would make you choose it -over- Hasten? What buffs, what changes, what overwhelming power would Stealth need that you choose Stealth but -not- Hasten?

 

Because that's what it would take to make "Buff the other pool powers" a reasonable suggestion. A massive power increase across the board to all the power pools so that Hasten is no longer a "Must Have"

 

You wanna talk about Power Creep? That shit would be Power Dash. Power Mach 1.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Purrfekshawn]

On 9/25/2019 at 9:24 PM, Steampunkette said:

It's a power that is, essentially, never used for Theme but exclusively used for Function. Much as how Stamina, Health, and Swift were used before the Fitness Pool was incorporated into all characters.

Krayz ldea: how about just moving Hasten to inherent Fitness pool?! 😲😲😲 So everyone will take it without spending extra power slot? Da powah FTW!

 

[Steampunkette]

4 minutes ago, Purrfekshawn said:

Krayz ldea: how about just moving Hasten to inherent Fitness pool?! 😲😲😲 So everyone will take it without spending extra power slot? Da powah FTW!

 

That was the original idea. Only transferred into an autopower rather than a slottable full-form, so as to avoid recharge-looping itself and MASSIVE global power boost in favor of a smaller one.

 

Which, of course, would wind up being a Nerf to recharge-centric builds.

 

There's no reasonable way to make Hasten an auto-grant in the form that it's currently in, sadly.

 

Though... fun note about Fitness becoming Inherent? That happened in i19. It came about when the IDF became a thing.

 

So it's not like "Happening late in the game's life" is a real issue for power pool rebalancing.

 

But I am formulating a new idea for a different suggestion, here, it's just requiring a ton of math (Which is why I didn't post, yesterday)

[Purrfekshawn]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

That was the original idea. Only transferred into an autopower rather than a slottable full-form, so as to avoid recharge-looping itself and MASSIVE global power boost in favor of a smaller one.

 

Which, of course, would wind up being a Nerf to recharge-centric builds.

 

There's no reasonable way to make Hasten an auto-grant in the form that it's currently in, sadly.

 

Though... fun note about Fitness becoming Inherent? That happened in i19. It came about when the IDF became a thing.

 

So it's not like "Happening late in the game's life" is a real issue for power pool rebalancing.

 

But I am formulating a new idea for a different suggestion, here, it's just requiring a ton of math (Which is why I didn't post, yesterday)

Nah, mah ldea was not altering Hasten's current behavior in any direction, but just make it accessible to any characters no matter what other powers they take. This would just save up 1 extra power slot, which they currently spend on Hasten. To Reflect that lemme try to draw its new picture:

 

 

Mah MAIN (Robotics/Traps) severely depends on Hasten and l just don't want any nerfs to it, even slightest. Enough of that was in champignons online, when Kaiserin screwed Plazmabeam to the ground!

 

Kinda all Pools have 5 powers in them now. Fitness (which is still a power pool technically after all) only has 4, but why not to restore 5 pattern by placing Hasten onto it?

Edited September 27, 2019 by Purrfekshawn

[Steampunkette]

Suggestion number 3:

 

Step 1: Delete Hasten. Replace with a new power which does not affect recharge. Possibly a Burst of Speed type ability with lower damage, or perhaps an enemy-targeted teleport-to in the same vein as Savage Leap.

 

Step 2: Reduce cooldown of all player powers by a flat 14% across the board. This is not a Recharge Rate bonus, and Diminishing Returns does not apply. Exclude powers that are unaffected by recharge rate. (Though what I'd do with them is a whole other thread, entirely...)

 

Step 3: Increase all NPC Health Values by 9% at level 1-20, 19% from 20-27, 24% from 27-34, and 30% after 35.

 

This applies Hasten at full power (I.E. Permahasten) to all builds, and rebalances enemies accordingly... essentially. Keyword: ESSENTIALLY. At low levels it offsets the attack rate increase of a few fast-recharging powers (The biggest outliers would be KO Blow and TWs, but TW needs a balancing pass as it is). At higher levels the heavier attacks with the longer cooldowns require further HP increases to retain the current TTK<TTD ratio.

 

Take Aim for example. Aim has a cooldown of 90 seconds. With an 14% reduction in cooldown it slips down to 77.4 seconds. Two slotting Aim for Recharge Rate brings the cooldown a further 83% (Roughly 41% cooldown reduction) to 31.7 seconds.

 

With Aim under the Hasten Model, 2 slotting for Recharge brings it to 49 seconds and then Hasten takes it to 35.53.

 

However it doesn't -stack- with further Recharge Rate changes. As a static reduction in cooldown it benefits them in a nonlinear manner. This becomes important at the most extreme ends of recharge, as demonstrated by Phantom Army:

 

Phantom Army normally slotted exactly like people slot it now with Hasten removed you'd have a 230% recharge rate. The cooldown would drop from 240 to 206, and that 230% recharge rate bonus (including slotting PA) would bring the cooldown to 62 seconds. 

 

But you'd get another pool power choice (Or a different power pool) for your trouble.

 

MAAAAAAATH

[Infinitum]

Changing the title again.

 

This is a troll post. Just for the sake of insert anything here.....

[ShardWarrior]

11 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I imagine that the new balance would be seen as a feature, not a bug.  

 

The game definitely would get a bit harder for most people.

 

Im convinced nerfing Hasten would have been a great idea once upon a time.

 

Its just too late.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think that ship has sailed.  Rebalancing the game now is an epic amount of work.

[Steampunkette]

Permadom, under Suggestion 3, would require a total of 92% Global Recharge from all sources instead of 123%.

 

Possible, but expensive. Here's an example build with 100% recharge rate without hasten:

 

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.2
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Example Permadom: Level 49 Mutation Dominator
Primary Power Set: Earth Control
Secondary Power Set: Savage Assault

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Stone Prison -- SprAscoft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SprAscoft-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(3), SprAscoft-EndRdx/Rchg(3), SprAscoft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(5), SprAscoft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Call Swarm -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(7), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), Apc-Acc/Rchg(9), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(9)
Level 2: Fossilize -- UnbCns-Hold/Rchg(A), UnbCns-Hold(11), UnbCns-Acc/Hold/Rchg(11), UnbCns-Acc/Rchg(13), UnbCns-EndRdx/Hold(13)
Level 4: Stone Cages -- GrvAnc-Immob(A), GrvAnc-Immob/Rchg(15), GrvAnc-Acc/Immob/Rchg(15), GrvAnc-Acc/Rchg(17), GrvAnc-Immob/EndRdx(17)
Level 6: Quicksand -- TmpRdn-Acc/Slow(A), TmpRdn-Dmg/Slow(21), TmpRdn-Acc/EndRdx(23), TmpRdn-Rng/Slow(23), TmpRdn-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(25)
Level 8: Salt Crystals -- FrtHyp-Sleep(A), FrtHyp-Sleep/Rchg(25), FrtHyp-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(27), FrtHyp-Acc/Rchg(27), FrtHyp-Sleep/EndRdx(29)
Level 10: [Empty] 
Level 12: Stalagmites -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg(A), PstBls-Dmg/Rchg(29), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(31), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(31), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31)
Level 14: [Empty] 
Level 16: Maiming Slash -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(A), CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx(34), CrsImp-Dmg/Rchg(34), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36)
Level 18: Earthquake -- DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb(A), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/Rchg(19), DarWtcDsp-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(19), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(21)
Level 20: Vicious Slash -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(A), CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx(36), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), CrsImp-Dmg/Rchg(37)
Level 22: Unkindness -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg(A), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(39), PstBls-Dmg/Rchg(39), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(39), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40)
Level 24: Spot Prey -- AdjTrg-ToHit(A), AdjTrg-ToHit/Rchg(40), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(40), AdjTrg-EndRdx/Rchg(42), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx(42)
Level 26: Volcanic Gasses -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(42), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(43), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(43)
Level 28: Rending Flurry -- Empty(A)
Level 30: [Empty] 
Level 32: Animate Stone -- CaltoArm-Acc/Rchg(A), CaltoArm-Acc/Dmg(33), CaltoArm-Dmg/EndRdx(33), CaltoArm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Empty(34)
Level 35: [Empty] 
Level 38: [Empty] 
Level 41: [Empty] 
Level 44: [Empty] 
Level 47: [Empty] 
Level 49: [Empty] 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Domination 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A)
------------
 

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Redlynne]

/jranger

[Apparition]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Changing the title again.

 

This is a troll post. Just for the sake of insert anything here.....

 

It should be renamed a fourth time to:  "How to scare away old players."

[Steampunkette]

Bonus: Option 3 frees up Autocast for all the current Hasten-Brigade.

 

That means no more "Bind Juggling" for Dominators, Humanform PBs can just put Lightform on Autocast, etc etc etc.

[Lost Ninja]

16 hours ago, macskull said:

This isn't a Hasten-specific phenomenon, any buffs can be stacked after zoning because the game "loses track" of who cast the buff (even if you were the caster). S'why I always tag teammates with a round of buffs right outside the mission door and immediately again after entering.

I know this, I triple box */Rad & */Kin controllers, 400% recharge is easy... 😄

[Starforge]

Here’s a crazy idea, so hopefully most of you are on board. We could just leave Hasten as it is.

[Snakebit]

11 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

I don't see an issue with sloting recharge in an awesome power that can take awesome set bonuses...

There is no issue with that.

 

The issue is with being forced to slot for global recharge to make up for the loss of the Hasten buff.  There are two possibilities with this 1) You were going to slot in that 70% Global anyway because you want to close recharge gap on 1 or 2 specific powers or effects and now you can't because you need another 70% recharge to make it happen. 2) You weren't going to slot that global recharge because Hasten gave you what you wanted, so you were going to slot for defense or damage via procs or global accuracy or whatever, and now you can't because you need the slots for global recharge.

 

Either way, by imposing the loss of the current structure, everyone who wants the 70% recharge is screwed. 

[Steampunkette]

18 minutes ago, cejmp said:

There is no issue with that.

 

The issue is with being forced to slot for global recharge to make up for the loss of the Hasten buff.  There are two possibilities with this 1) You were going to slot in that 70% Global anyway because you want to close recharge gap on 1 or 2 specific powers or effects and now you can't because you need another 70% recharge to make it happen. 2) You weren't going to slot that global recharge because Hasten gave you what you wanted, so you were going to slot for defense or damage via procs or global accuracy or whatever, and now you can't because you need the slots for global recharge.

 

Either way, by imposing the loss of the current structure, everyone who wants the 70% recharge is screwed. 

I mean... Except that the cooldowns of all powers are reduced by 14% which is equivalent to a 70% recharge rate increase when regular slotting is taken into account...

 

Like... Did y'all read the third suggestion, yet, or are you still arguing against the first one?

[Lost Ninja]

23 minutes ago, Starforge said:

Here’s a crazy idea, so hopefully most of you are on board. We could just leave Hasten as it is.

+1

 

And a passive 20% Bonus to recharge for everyone to say sorry for even thinking about removing Hasten... 😉

[Bossk_Hogg]

22 minutes ago, cejmp said:

There is no issue with that.

 

The issue is with being forced to slot for global recharge to make up for the loss of the Hasten buff.  There are two possibilities with this 1) You were going to slot in that 70% Global anyway because you want to close recharge gap on 1 or 2 specific powers or effects and now you can't because you need another 70% recharge to make it happen. 2) You weren't going to slot that global recharge because Hasten gave you what you wanted, so you were going to slot for defense or damage via procs or global accuracy or whatever, and now you can't because you need the slots for global recharge.

 

Either way, by imposing the loss of the current structure, everyone who wants the 70% recharge is screwed. 

We may be talking past each other, but I am 100% in favor for NOT changing hasten. I'm 300% in favor for not rebalancing the entire friggin game on a volunteer dev team.

 

This is an easy PVE game with multiple difficulty sliders even outside of the official difficulty slider through noteriety settings. You can use IO's, SO's or TO's to also choose how powerful your character is. You can fight harder enemies - take a team through first wars/night ward and even IO'd teams will face a challenge. You can impose debuffs on yourself in flashback or pl your alt to 50 if you just want to dink around with a PVP build. This is a game that thoroughly embraces alts (IMO the real end game) and lets you play your way. There isnt a subscription, so we don't need to slow down player progress as much as other games do or force everyone to play the same way. 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg