Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for October 1st, 2019

[Vanden]

Just now, Myrmidon said:

We are there when the patch goes live and not before, however, I’m with you on that one.

No, this should be done before the patch goes live, because the AoE changes don't affect every set equally. It's like how they needed to tweak some Dominator secondaries before the sniper changes went live.

[Myrmidon]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

No, this should be done before the patch goes live, because the AoE changes don't affect every set equally. It's like how they needed to tweak some Dominator secondaries before the sniper changes went live.

Interesting, I don’t think that many of us have considered that. You already have the compiled list to share, right?😁

[Vanden]

21 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Interesting, I don’t think that many of us have considered that. You already have the compiled list to share, right?😁

Well there's a handful of sets with only one AoE attack, and a handful of sets that have AoEs that had their range nerfed to put them under the cutoff for the new inherent to affect them (and so get less benefit from new inherent), but the only sets that fit into both categories are Super Strength and Stone Melee. Of those two, I only have experience with Super Strength, so it's the only one I can really argue for. And Stone Melee did get some minor tweaks (Tremor is being moved to an earlier tier for Tankers, iirc).

[Myrmidon]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

Well there's a handful of sets with only one AoE attack, and a handful of sets that have AoEs that had their range nerfed to put them under the cutoff for the new inherent to affect them (and so get less benefit from new inherent), but the only sets that fit into both categories are Super Strength and Stone Melee. Of those two, I only have experience with Super Strength, so it's the only one I can really argue for. And Stone Melee did get some minor tweaks (Tremor is being moved to an earlier tier for Tankers, iirc).

I would definitely be willing to wait and see what adjustments those two might get if needs be.

[siolfir]

My thoughts on the "balance" between the sets:

 

For Stone Melee, use the Dominator animations for Tremor (2.5 sec) and Hurl Boulder (1.5 sec), and call it a day. That would bump the DPA on Tremor a bit so you don't feel like using it is a colossal waste of time, and since the increased target cap affects Fault for Tankers, you get an extra 6 things you can stun-lock permanently, so losing a bit of AoE damage for it isn't that bad. I personally prefer a flip-flop of Seismic Smash and Tremor for the Tanker version (which matches the Brute tier order), but that means no AoEs until 32 - others may prefer them earlier, especially given the Tanker's newfound focus on melee AoE. If you wanted to be really nice, you could remove the extra half second of animation time that was added to each the Mallets (they used to be 1.11 and 1.13 sec); that would increase the single target DPS to nearly top-tier just on the powers themselves.

 

Super Strength is already getting the ability to avoid a 10 second -damage crash by not stacking Rage, which is a slight buff; with that in mind, making Jab something worth having in your tray and reducing the animation for Hurl to the shorter one would likely be good enough. I'd suggest going to 3 second recharge with the corresponding damage and endurance cost increases for Jab, and add a brief (5 sec) -10% resistance secondary effect so that you could keep it up by spamming the power - it makes sense since you're "softening them up" by jabbing at them anyway. For an added bonus, reduce the KB to .67 on Hand Clap so you don't have to waste the slot for the KB-to-KD IO in it to not throw everyone away from you, reduce the recharge to 20 seconds to match Fault, and it has the same benefits with the increased target cap and permanent stunlock ability without any ground-based requirement.

 

For both sets, if there's any decision on changing Hurl/Hurl Boulder to an AoE, I'd suggest a thin cone, similar to Piercing Rounds in Dual Pistols, so that you hit everything with the boulder on it's way to the target; this would give Tankers the edge on the boost since the arc would be doubled compared to the Brute (and possibly Dominator) versions, but it would still mostly act as a single-target attack. It makes more sense than throwing it and it exploding into shrapnel. I might go with a 10 degree arc base instead of 5, though - the boulder is a bit wider than the bullets.

 

I still think that Energy Melee is still getting the worst of everything, having only a single AoE that wasn't that great in the first place. It'll likely never happen, but my recommendation would be to completely undo the ET nerf and go back to the 1-second animation so it at least has something to recommend it; the ridiculous DPA of ET was pseudo-AoE damage because you could switch targets that much faster. The shorter Total Focus animation that Dominators got would be nice also, but with a 1 second ET back I could see where that might be considered overkill on single-target DPS, plus a reduced animation time on both would hurt the PvP damage on both - not that I think it's being used for anything. I realize that this will make it a single-target damage outlier, but I don't care: let some sets specialize in niche areas and actually be good at them; buffing the AoE damage doesn't make as much sense to me since that just turns it into Rad Melee, a set that I play but get annoyed at the long animations of.

Edited October 16, 2019 by siolfir
formatting

[DreadShinobi]

Some set specific stuff that I would like to see, most of which is just proliferating the dominator patch and making energy melee good again.

 

Stone Melee: 

Hurl Boulder animation 2.5s -> 1.5s

Tremor animation 3.3s -> 2.5s

 

Super Strength:

Remove Jab, make Punch the t1, Haymaker t2, add a new attack for tier 3

make hand clap a knockdown

Hurl animation 2.5s -> 1.5s

 

Ice Melee:

Ice Patch animation 3.47s -> 2.03s

Increase cold damage dealt while standing on the ice patch??

Greater Ice Sword -> increased base damage, increased base recharge, maybe also lower animation time as well.

 

Energy Melee:

Total Focus animation 3.3s -> 2.5s

Energy Transfer 2.67s -> 1s , reduce stun duration to 2s

Stun animation 1.8s -> 2.67s (think kinetic melee burst), make it an 8 ft aoe.

 

I also agree with @siolfir on making sets unique and good within their niche. 

 

 

[MirrorDarkly]

On 10/15/2019 at 10:38 AM, slackers69 said:

I hope that the lowering of damage cap for both AT do not get implemented.  I have a spines/fire aura brute and I thought I had enough to damage output so I decided to pick the T4 alpha agility to have a more balance brute.  With this change, I am now thinking I should go with T4 alpha musculature.  Will you give us the ability to change alpha abilities EASILY without having us to go through grinding for incarnate shards/threads to make the change?

I don't understand your point. If you are losing damage from this change it means that you are at or very near the damage cap.

 

Adding more +damage would not help because it would just push you even more above the cap.

 

If anything it should validate your choice to make a more balanced brute as you are now closer to reaching maximum possible damage without changing a thing.

Edited October 16, 2019 by MirrorDarkly

[Captain Powerhouse]

Some Melee Powersets will be looked at later after this is out of the way. 

The rage crash avoidance will actually be rolled back on next patch, the set will be looked at in more detail later, but not until another project is done: go through every single entity in the game and re-balance enemy damage resistances. 

[Auroxis]

49 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Some Melee Powersets will be looked at later after this is out of the way. 

The rage crash avoidance will actually be rolled back on next patch, the set will be looked at in more detail later, but not until another project is done: go through every single entity in the game and re-balance enemy damage resistances. 

Aren't you a bit concerned that the tanker-specific powerset balance changes could limit your design space when adjusting the powersets as a whole later on?

 

For example, what if you wanted to buff the AoE on War Mace but on Tanker it's already a top performer? What if you wanted to nerf radius/arc on Titan Weapons but the Tanker AoE buffs would make them even better? If for instance you wanted to buff Shadow Maul's arc, you'd also have to consider the Tanker's inherent, same goes for every melee AoE you'll ever adjust.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Auroxis

[Chrome]

so i have been following this for awhile but not read every change ...what are the final overall differences from live regarding tankers ... or should i just wait for the patch notes when it gets pushed out

 

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Auroxis said:

Aren't you a bit concerned that the tanker-specific powerset balance changes could limit your design space when adjusting the powersets as a whole later on?

 

For example, what if you wanted to buff the AoE on War Mace but on Tanker it's already a top performer? What if you wanted to nerf radius/arc on Titan Weapons but the Tanker AoE buffs would make them even better? If for instance you wanted to buff Shadow Maul's arc, you'd also have to consider the Tanker's inherent, same goes for every melee AoE you'll ever adjust.

I think that's sort of like treating symptoms.  We need to focus on getting the structure right first, and getting things to perform "by the formula."  Once we have that foundation of "here's how things should work, so the reality matches the numbers on paper" then all the outliers should become pretty evident as a live population begins really stress-testing.  In essence: we have no benchmark, when the game was literally designed around a series of them (the initial damage formulae).   CP has very clear stress points for how he feels Tankers should perform, and if this goes live, we will be able to report every instance of that being false.

 

(I should note, that doesn't necessarily mean exact parity will ever even be strived for.  Some sets are intended to have higher damage or utility than others.  But the inflection points should be known and tracked)

1 hour ago, Chrome said:

so i have been following this for awhile but not read every change ...what are the final overall differences from live regarding tankers ... or should i just wait for the patch notes when it gets pushed out

 

Atm and iirc (and more internet letters) it is:

• Ranged modifier matches old melee modifier (0.8)
• Epic attacks all use ranged modifier
• Melee damage modifier to .95 (from .8)
• Damage cap to 5.0/500% (from 400%, I believe)
• Gauntlet refactored as a global proc.  No longer has an accuracy check. It's aoe centered on ST targets, and auto-hit vs all targets hit by your own aoes.
• Bonuses to several "party help" effects.  I honestly don't remember the very specific list but I know defense debuffs were untouched and Leadership (and particularly Assault) is stronger.
• AOE stuff (I believe this is all considered "gauntlet")
  • AOE attacks from melee sets from 10 max targets to 16 (not pool or epic)
  • Most AOE attacks (or maybe just pbaoe?) with a radius of 10' or less gain +60% radius (should apply to pool and epics)
  • All cones with a radius of 90° or less have their arc increased by 100% (should apply to pool and epics)
• I ran out of stuff.  I think that's it.

[Auroxis]

21 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I think that's sort of like treating symptoms.  We need to focus on getting the structure right first, and getting things to perform "by the formula."  Once we have that foundation of "here's how things should work, so the reality matches the numbers on paper" then all the outliers should become pretty evident as a live population begins really stress-testing.  In essence: we have no benchmark, when the game was literally designed around a series of them (the initial damage formulae).   CP has very clear stress points for how he feels Tankers should perform, and if this goes live, we will be able to report every instance of that being false.

The AoE changes could have been done on a more consistent basis. For example, just buff all arcs, radius, and target caps by 20-50% regardless of their current values. That way it's easier to nerf/buff powersets on all classes without these specific conditions to consider, and the tooltips become less confusing to the player (like the 10 radius one on foot stomp). I feel like a lot of the "if" scenarios are made with powerset balance intentions in mind when the balancing of certain sets like TW and SS is inevitable on a global scale.

Quote

Atm and iirc (and more internet letters) it is:

• Ranged modifier matches old melee modifier (0.8)
• Epic attacks all use ranged modifier
• Melee damage modifier to .95 (from .8)
• Damage cap to 5.0/500% (from 400%, I believe)
• Gauntlet refactored as a global proc.  No longer has an accuracy check. It's aoe centered on ST targets, and auto-hit vs all targets hit by your own aoes.
• Bonuses to several "party help" effects.  I honestly don't remember the very specific list but I know defense debuffs were untouched and Leadership (and particularly Assault) is stronger.
• AOE stuff (I believe this is all considered "gauntlet")
  • AOE attacks from melee sets from 10 max targets to 16 (not pool or epic)
  • Most AOE attacks (or maybe just pbaoe?) with a radius of 10' or less gain +60% radius (should apply to pool and epics)
  • All cones with a radius of 90° or less have their arc increased by 100% (should apply to pool and epics)
• I ran out of stuff.  I think that's it.

 

Some AoE attacks remained at 10 max targets

Some AoE attacks were buffed from 5 to 10 max targets

Bruising was removed

Melt Armor and Weaken Resolve have a slightly higher resistance debuff modifier

ToHit debuffs from power pools are higher

Brute damage cap lowered from 775% to 700%

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Auroxis

[Replacement]

20 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

The AoE changes could have been done on a more consistent basis. For example, just buff all arcs, radius, and target caps by 20-50% regardless of their current values. That way it's easier to nerf/buff powersets on all classes without these specific conditions to consider, and the tooltips become less confusing to the player (like the 10 radius one on foot stomp). I feel like a lot of the "if" scenarios are made with powerset balance intentions in mind when the balancing of certain sets like TW and SS is inevitable on a global scale.

I think I agree with what you're saying here.  I think.

 

Basically, while what I said above is "ideal," there are some "first pass tweaks" being made as part of it.  Ultimately, these are some pretty good ideas (like intentionally overlooking TW and Spines) but it's certainly muddying the ideal.

 

I can live with it, but I agree it creates a more confusing "partial implementation."

Thanks for the additional notes, though I don't know which attacks remain at 10 max targets (the ones from 5 to 10 were cones, iirc, so thanks on that front as well).  Are there any overlooked from Tanker secondary?

Also, I didn't touch the "Brute, go stand in time-out" penalty since it's not specifically Tanker. 😄 

[Myrmidon]

56 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I think that's sort of like treating symptoms.  We need to focus on getting the structure right first, and getting things to perform "by the formula."  Once we have that foundation of "here's how things should work, so the reality matches the numbers on paper" then all the outliers should become pretty evident as a live population begins really stress-testing.  In essence: we have no benchmark, when the game was literally designed around a series of them (the initial damage formulae).   CP has very clear stress points for how he feels Tankers should perform, and if this goes live, we will be able to report every instance of that being false.

 

(I should note, that doesn't necessarily mean exact parity will ever even be strived for.  Some sets are intended to have higher damage or utility than others.  But the inflection points should be known and tracked)

Atm and iirc (and more internet letters) it is:

• Ranged modifier matches old melee modifier (0.8)
• Epic attacks all use ranged modifier
• Melee damage modifier to .95 (from .8)
• Damage cap to 5.0/500% (from 400%, I believe)
• Gauntlet refactored as a global proc.  No longer has an accuracy check. It's aoe centered on ST targets, and auto-hit vs all targets hit by your own aoes.
• Bonuses to several "party help" effects.  I honestly don't remember the very specific list but I know defense debuffs were untouched and Leadership (and particularly Assault) is stronger.
• AOE stuff (I believe this is all considered "gauntlet")
  • AOE attacks from melee sets from 10 max targets to 16 (not pool or epic)
  • Most AOE attacks (or maybe just pbaoe?) with a radius of 10' or less gain +60% radius (should apply to pool and epics)
  • All cones with a radius of 90° or less have their arc increased by 100% (should apply to pool and epics)
• I ran out of stuff.  I think that's it.

Here is the original Gauntlet listing. I believe that the only thing that has changed is the radius going from 15’ to 10’.

 

The thing that almost everyone has bypassed is the Taunt scale increase, which should help people that have aggro control issues.

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Chrome said:

so i have been following this for awhile but not read every change ...what are the final overall differences from live regarding tankers ... or should i just wait for the patch notes when it gets pushed out

 

I’m sure that the Captain will give us a close to final set of patch notes either during or shortly after the next pass. Let us all pray to the Spaghetti Code gods that Kinetic Melee gets fixed this time around.😁

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, Myrmidon said:

I’m sure that the Captain will give us a close to final set of patch notes either during or shortly after the next pass. Let us all pray to the Spaghetti Code gods that Kinetic Melee gets fixed this time around.😁

Yes. I like the set but it definitely needs work.

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Yes. I like the set but it definitely needs work.

 I meant fixing the T1-T2 issue that came up rather than balance passes (if any).😁

[Replacement]

Oh yeah! And the target cap on Taunt (the actual power) is up from 5 to... 7(?) on Pineapple.

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Replacement said:

Oh yeah! And the target cap on Taunt (the actual power) is up from 5 to... 7(?) on Pineapple.

Correct.

[DSorrow]

23 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

go through every single entity in the game and re-balance enemy damage resistances. 

Any details on this? I'm hoping for a reduction in some of the most extreme resistances (most notably Psi and Lethal) some enemies have.

[Chrome]

honestly as a non super number cruncher all of those listed changes seem right on point...making tanks stronger in a way that wont push brutes completely out of the picture seems great! ...i applaud all those who have time and patience to test and the devs who volunteer to make this game great ... great job to everyone! 

[nihilii]

On 10/16/2019 at 2:58 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

not until another project is done: go through every single entity in the game and re-balance enemy damage resistances. 

As a Fire Blast lover: uh oh. 🤣

[Golden Azrael]

Takes ages to take down Carnie or Malta with a blaster with SOs.  The former, I never liked.  The latter I used to 'hate' but I have a grudging respect for now.

 

I was in Steel the other day with a Brute EM/Invul and it's 'ok.'  It's a little kludgy and clumsy.  When the fury bar builds to about a 1/3 (hard to get it really going...) and you hit BU, then it's almost compelling.  I hope the tanker changes make it more compelling.  I still feel there are issues with this particular set as I do Ice, Stone.  I had that 'idea' when I hit BU.  Why not just make BU a two minute click for Tanks.  With the standard BU recharge time between bouts..?  For me, this would put the tanks on the map, damage wise...and add some lustre to old sets like Ice/Stone and Energy melee which are very grindy.

 

Re-balancing enemy res.  Should be interesting.  If they're made tougher it kind of neuters the class change to the Tank AT.  You'll be back to puffing and wheezing...and taking ages to take down a mob or a group of mob.

 

As for fire/fire blasters.  It's Russian roulette at the moment.  I pop lots of inspires (lucks, toughs, reds...) to get through mobs of Freak and carry breakers for Council Vamps or Wolves that sleep or slap me.

 

Azrael.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Golden Azrael

[XaoGarrent]

On 10/16/2019 at 8:58 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

but not until another project is done: go through every single entity in the game and re-balance enemy damage resistances. 

 

8 hours ago, nihilii said:

As a Fire Blast lover: uh oh. 🤣

That is a massive can of worms, please be careful.

 

Many of the sets in the game have strengths and weaknesses predicated off existing resistance. While life really sucks for Psi in the late game, there are others that could have it way, way worse... Or even swing the other way around, I seem to remember at least some of the Smash/Lethal sets get higher base damage to at least help with the extremely frequent resistances.

 

Really, enemy damage resistance seems like something that probably should just get a trimming around the edges, rather than a complete rework.

[Haijinx]

Do they? None of the sets seem to be balanced around damage type at all. 

 

A Lethal 4 second recharging attack does the same damage as a Cold 4 second recharging attack.