Ice/Ice, is it really that bad?

[Duck-Smokes-Quack]

I see pretty much nothing but negativity for Ice/ and /Ice on Doms ... Why does it have such a bad rep? can someone help me understand?

From what I can tell:

Ice/: Doesnt benifit much from Dom, and people seem to dislike it
 

/Ice: Low DPS, High End Cost, Single target


Is this all true? The way people talk about it that they are the worst thing in the game 😛

[Coyote]

Ice Control mitigates damage pretty well over a period of time, but it doesn't do well at front-loaded mitigation. Instead of shutting down mobs, it limits the effectiveness of their attacks. For this reason, it works very well when paired with a Controller Secondary that lowers enemy ToHit and has an AoE heal... these Secondaries usually have other means of also lowering attack effectiveness such as -Dam. So when you pair Ice Control with a secondary like Rad, Time, Dark, etc, you get mobs that attack very weakly, and you can easily keep the team healed with most of the incoming attacks at very low attack rate, missing often, attacking each other because they're Confused, etc. However, for a Controller, Ice does low damage and with a defense-oriented secondary they're still lacking damage. So it's not a good set for a Controller who wants to solo at any time.

 

For a Dominator, the lack of damage is not a big deal since they get damage from the secondary. But its lack of front-loaded mitigation leaves you open to taking a lot of damage early.  Instead of shutting down the mobs for 12 seconds which gives you a chance to kill some before they start acting, Ice Control allows all of them to attack you at the start of a fight, even if afterwards their attack rate is reduced. For this reason, it only works well when paired with a secondary that has good damage mitigation: Dark, Earth, Martial Arts, probably.

 

However, there is one trick that I'm going to try with my Ice/Martial: take and use the AoE Sleep. It will shut down a spawn and prevent the alpha strike, giving you a chance to go in with Arctic Air, give it 4 seconds to run through two Confuse ticks, while you Hold a LT, and then you start the fight with Ice Slick but half the mobs are Confused, and 1-2 are Held. If you run it with Earth instead, you can use Seismic Smash to shut down another mob, so you can start the fight with 3 mobs Held and half the others (not Bosses) Confused. This should mitigate the alpha strike nicely. Another option is to use /Dark, and after Holding someone, open the fight with Power Up and the PBAoE attack... this will give them a solid -ToHit so that their opening salvo doesn't hurt as much.

 

As you can see, it looks as if there are tools to make Ice Control work well, but it is the most finicky of the Control sets to get the most of its abilities. It relies on extended damage mitigation with a pulsing but not permanent Confuse, Knockdown and -Recharge, but has little way of defusing the alpha strike. So you have to figure out a way to defuse the incoming alpha... if you do this, it looks like a good set. But other sets don't have such a large hole that absolutely needs to be patched up with other powers before they can be considered good.

[oedipus_tex]

I used to main an Ice/Fire Dominator on live.  I enjoyed him a lot, but the way the game has progressed has pushed Ice Control further and further down the power spectrum. 

 

• The change to procs to favor long recharge powers over toggles nuked the effectiveness of Arctic Air with the Contagious Confusion proc. The proc used to fire frequently in AA. Now it very rarely does.
• Ice Slick, unlike Earthquake, can't slot knockback IOs. In fact it can't slot any special IOs at all. So, where Earth can get +100% recharge for 5 seconds with every quake, Ice is stuck with a power that takes no IOs at all.
• Ice Slick also can't take -Run Speed IOs. This doesn't really matter in practice, its just annoying because Quicksand in the Earth set can.
• Adding insult to injury, Bonfire on Fire Control can be slotted with a KB to KD IO, which turns into a  far better knockdown patch than Ice Slick, with better up time, longer duration, and free damage. In addition, Bonfire can also slot the +recharge proc for +100% Recharge. Bonfire was never designed to be competitive with Ice Slick (Ice's key power) but massively outperforms it in practice.

 

The original design of Ice Control was supposed to be "low damage, good soft control, autohit powers" and it functioned at least semi-well in that role even if it was fairly weak. But since then all of the other sets have received big power ups where Ice has either maintained its old position, or even gotten worse, as with Arctic Air.

 

I would very much like to see this set increased in power. I love the idea of a PBAoE toggle and a knockdown patch being Ice's main draws, with the main drawback being no good hard ranged opener (the price paid for both AA and Ice Slick lacking Accuracy checks). But for it to be so, those powers have to be competitive. Right now AA and Ice Slick sadly do not deliver.

 

Also, there's Shiver, which for all intents and purposes is worthless on this set, for a long list of reasons.

 

 

As for Icy Assault, it recently got a bump in power. I've yet to try it out, but it has some nice features. In the past it was a middling set. Chilling Embrace was known to be one of the worst powers in the game but recently got a power up. Interestingly, it has become one of the few powers in the game that also lacks a Accuracy check, kind of continuing the theme of Ice Control.

[Duck-Smokes-Quack]

Thanks guys! Very interesting stuff

That list os basically Earth vs Ice is a real open Tex

[Mikewho]

Icy assault is pretty good if you mostly care about:

1. Access to power up to make your mez better.

2. Good single target ranged damage.

 

those were my priorities so I’m quite happy with it.

[Tater Todd]

Well stated guys!

[Dark Current]

AA is an end hog.

 

The AoE immobilize used to prevent Ice Slick's knockdown... I think that has been changed on homecoming though.

 

Flashfreeze aggros before the sleep takes hold because it does a tick of damage first. So you take an insta-alpha for using it. Then it suffers the typical problem of mobs waking up with damage so if on a team that's a guarantee.

 

The set conflicts with itself positionally: AA and Glacier are melee controls... Shiver and Aoe immob are ranged.

 

There's only so much -rch / -spd you can stack, so stacking your controls doesn't really do much when compared to stacking most other controls.

 

Jack has a glass jaw.

 

I think the easiest ways to bring the set to match the other control sets are:

1. Make the AoE sleep mimic electric's sleep. Any mob that enters the patch of Flash Freeze will be damaged, slowed, and slept. Repeatedly. This would give Ice another (or first?) strong AoE control early in the set (Ice Slick is pretty good... until you try it on fliers or fast runners.
2. Make Shiver do -dmg or -resist along with -spd / -rch. Something to make it worth the pick. Heck, I'd even take a cone repel effect on it similar to Gale, sans kb / kd.
3. Allow Ice Slick to accept IOs and put in some ticks of AoE damage from the falling down. Now you can put slow sets and AoE dmg sets.

These are relatively 'minor' changes for which I think the code is already there / could be modified (I can't say this for sure as I've not seen the code personally).

[Doomrider]

On 10/6/2019 at 9:17 AM, oedipus_tex said:

 

• Ice Slick, unlike Earthquake, can't slot knockback IOs. In fact it can't slot any special IOs at all. So, where Earth can get +100% recharge for 5 seconds with every quake, Ice is stuck with a power that takes no IOs at all.

Whoa, whoa, whoa wait a minute... Let me get this straight so I'm not misunderstanding... FFB in Earthquake fires every time you summon Earthquake? or upon on summoning AND each time the power ticks?

[oedipus_tex]

2 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

Whoa, whoa, whoa wait a minute... Let me get this straight so I'm not misunderstanding... FFB in Earthquake fires every time you summon Earthquake? or upon on summoning AND each time the power ticks?

 

No, it only fires when place the Quake. But on a good IO build you're probably dropping a Quake every 30 seconds or so, so the uptime is considerable.

[Doomrider]

8 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

No, it only fires when place the Quake. But on a good IO build you're probably dropping a Quake every 30 seconds or so, so the uptime is considerable.

Ah okay, that's what I figured. Was wondering how a psuedo pet would be granting me FFB after placement... XD.  Thx Tex.
 

[Mr. Vee]

Been toying with making an ice control character as I never had one on live either so reading this has been great for info but a sad for those plans. Looking at mids I see ice slick is a location targeted AOE. Have folks tried using it from out of line of sight to mitigate the alphas? That works quite well on blaster's bonfire, so well that I've been taking it on every blaster. Someone mentioned that ice slick's not as good as bonfire now so wondering if that strategy's not workable with ice.

[oedipus_tex]

2 hours ago, Veelectric Boogaloo said:

Been toying with making an ice control character as I never had one on live either so reading this has been great for info but a sad for those plans. Looking at mids I see ice slick is a location targeted AOE. Have folks tried using it from out of line of sight to mitigate the alphas? That works quite well on blaster's bonfire, so well that I've been taking it on every blaster. Someone mentioned that ice slick's not as good as bonfire now so wondering if that strategy's not workable with ice.

 

Yes, the around the corner trick is very effective in Ice Slick. The one positive I will give it over Bonfire and Earthquake is it is also a slow, so it is very difficult for enemies to run out of it and chase you down.

 

If you don't mind the choppiness, here is a old video of my Ice/Fire Dom from around Issue 21. This was ages ago, back when that combo was somewhat less gimped compared to other builds. It's not that Ice has gotten weaker, but that other changes have made other options much stronger. The exception is that Arctic Air no longer is a good place for the Contagious Confusion proc--that really killed Ice Control in my eyes. Prior to that it was my favorite control set despite its many issues.

 

 T

[oedipus_tex]

I also have this old video lying around:

 

 

 

This was from when I had an Ice/Radiation Controller. This was the old days, so the only reliable source of mezz protection to make Ice Control feasible on a Controller was Indomitable Will (Psi pool). These days its slightly easier, but not completely.

 

[If any devs are reading this, Arctic Air really, really REALLY needs to behave like Fire Manipulation's damage aura and continue running even if you are mezzed. The fact that it drops when are mezzed makes it far too unreliable and forces you into a very extreme build. (Somewhat less so on Dominators who at least get mezz protection from Domination.)]

 

 

Anyway if you look for the purple confuse bubbles you can see how efficiently Arctic Air used to be for this particular farm. I actually leveled this Controller from 44 to 50 by using the AE. It's probably still possible. But you don't get the payoff of being able to slot Contagious Cofusion in AA anymore ad I just can't bring myself to enjoy the set like I used to.

 

 

[mbre2006]

On 10/8/2019 at 8:48 PM, Dark Current said:

AA is an end hog.

 

The AoE immobilize used to prevent Ice Slick's knockdown... I think that has been changed on homecoming though.

 

Flashfreeze aggros before the sleep takes hold because it does a tick of damage first. So you take an insta-alpha for using it. Then it suffers the typical problem of mobs waking up with damage so if on a team that's a guarantee.

 

The set conflicts with itself positionally: AA and Glacier are melee controls... Shiver and Aoe immob are ranged.

 

There's only so much -rch / -spd you can stack, so stacking your controls doesn't really do much when compared to stacking most other controls.

 

Jack has a glass jaw.

 

I think the easiest ways to bring the set to match the other control sets are:

1. Make the AoE sleep mimic electric's sleep. Any mob that enters the patch of Flash Freeze will be damaged, slowed, and slept. Repeatedly. This would give Ice another (or first?) strong AoE control early in the set (Ice Slick is pretty good... until you try it on fliers or fast runners.
2. Make Shiver do -dmg or -resist along with -spd / -rch. Something to make it worth the pick. Heck, I'd even take a cone repel effect on it similar to Gale, sans kb / kd.
3. Allow Ice Slick to accept IOs and put in some ticks of AoE damage from the falling down. Now you can put slow sets and AoE dmg sets.

These are relatively 'minor' changes for which I think the code is already there / could be modified (I can't say this for sure as I've not seen the code personally).

I don't agree with some of this. Ice/ice is solid and I'm not sure when the last time he used jack but jack can last for a long time.

Ice/Ice is designed to mainly be an AOE monster so if you don't use it right you will waste a lot of endurance trying to go back and forth between single target and letting your aoe damage do the work. 

Immob in general prevents KB or KD so learning when to use ice slic or using your aoe immob really depends on your playstyle. 

AA is really great and planning a good build not even using purps and you can overcome the end drain AA does.

I have a Ice/Ice/Ice dom that I would love to give you a demo OP. Send me a message ingame @Fire Bre and I will gladly demo it for you

Edited November 19, 2019 by mbre2006

[Tater Todd]

After the Dom changes Ice/Ice is very solid when it comes to traditional set play...but it becomes an absolute monster with procs.

[oedipus_tex]

Ice Control does need fixes IMO. Arctic Air, the key power, requires too much work to make it effective after level 25. That's long been a problem for the set. It's too easy to get mezzed and die because your key control got detoggled.

 

That said, it does work much better on Dominators than Controllers. A Controller has to build very deliberately with Arctic Air in mind, where at least a Dominator just has to go perma-dom (or just stay away from enemies when not in Domination mode). We've seen with Cauterizing Aura that is possible to flag a power not to detoggle when the owner is mezzed, and it should apply to this power.

 

I'd also like to see it possible to summon multiple Ice Slicks and the recharge/duration matched up with Bonfire. 

 

 

[Toxurion]

I play an Ice/Ice dom and I love it. You can build them to handle melee combat, which is what I prefer in most situations. As with most Doms, they really shine with perma.

[Chelsea Rorec]

On 11/18/2019 at 10:59 PM, oedipus_tex said:

 

No, it only fires when place the Quake. But on a good IO build you're probably dropping a Quake every 30 seconds or so, so the uptime is considerable.

Thats not what i've seen on my Earth/storm controller.

Earthquake is firing more than once during its life.(Go test it and watch your combat log)

But it is not someplace i would waste a slot on FFB.

No idea on Ice slick tho.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Chelsea Rorec

[oedipus_tex]

4 hours ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

Thats not what i've seen on my Earth/storm controller.

Earthquake is firing more than once during its life.(Go test it and watch your combat log)

But it is not someplace i would waste a slot on FFB.

No idea on Ice slick tho.

 

To be honest I just expected Earthquake to behave identically to Bonfire or Tornado and didn't actually test it specifically. That's interesting if the proc is firing during the quake's life but not reliably on the first cast. 

[Chelsea Rorec]

On 11/23/2019 at 4:38 PM, oedipus_tex said:

 

To be honest I just expected Earthquake to behave identically to Bonfire or Tornado and didn't actually test it specifically. That's interesting if the proc is firing during the quake's life but not reliably on the first cast. 

Yep i see it firing acouple of times and not just on cast.

[Diantane]

You need to-hit debuff secondary with Ice Control? Well I got just the thing (that you didn't mention). FF does defense and thermal/sonic does resistance, but I have Cold Domination as a secondary that does both resist and defense shields for the team. So much for minus to-hit - lol. Jack Frost will be protected as well.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Diantane

[TNT]

I was running an Ice/Thorns Dom for a little while and the initial agro was a problem for me.  I tried mitigating that with the sleep power.  It worked in a so-so manner. I would cast the sleep and then move in.  The problem was that Arctic Air would confuse half the group who would then take it upon themselves to wake the rest, who would then go after me.  The character is sitting and collecting  dust at level 30.  I will have to adjust and take it up again one of these days. I have a great concept and backstory that demands completion.  

[Hew]

My first ice/ice dom (first dom period) was a massive fail. This was before perma anything, and the fact that my soft controls just werent as good as say, earth, was saddening. 😕

 

I went back every few years but it just never got better!

[Moifus]

My Ice/Ice Dom is an endurance hog.  It is really bad.  Even with the -33 end usage by Incarnate Alpha Cardiac lvl 3 it is still unusable with ice toggles.  Would not recommend this toon for solo play.  Seems like it would be good if that was fixed.  

 

[TygerDarkstorm]

I rather enjoy my Ice/Ice dom; she's quite a bit of fun to play. Just ran an ITF earlier on my Pain Dom Def where a lvl 50 fully slotted Ice/Ice dom was our tank and he rocked it. It plays different than other control sets, which is one of the reasons why I find it fun.