FYI: Infrigidate is a proc monster power

[Redlynne]

Uh oh ... I think I may have just found something ... something useful to both Defender AND Corruptor builds.

 

 

Cold Domination T1 power ... Infrigidate.

Defender version link.

Corruptor version link.

 

 

 

Okay ... big whoop.  Infrigidate is a "worthless" T1 power in a powerset that isn't all that popular.  So what?

 

 

 

Well ... um ... take a closer look at the proc monster math the power produces with a 15s base recharge, +0% recharge enhancement and a 3.5 PPM proc:

• Infrigidate: 3.5 * ((15 / ( 1 + 0 / 100 )) + 1) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 30,000))) = 90% (Pre-clamp: 93.33%)

In case anyone is playing the "home game" on this, putting as little as +3.97% recharge enhancement into this power gives it an 89.992% chance to proc a 3.5 PPM proc ... meaning that Infrigidate without ANY recharge enhancement is a maximal proc monster power "fresh out of the box" (ironically enough).

 

 

 

Okay ... so Infrigidate is "cool" for putting procs into.  So what?

 

Well ... it turns out you can put a pretty remarkable collection of procs into Infrigidate ... specifically:

• Impeded Swiftness for 71.75 Smashing damage (3.5 PPM)
• Pacing of the Turtle for -20% Recharge for 20s (3.5 PPM)
• Achilles' Heel for -20% Resistance for 10s (3.5 PPM)
• Touch of Lady Grey for 71.75 Negative Energy damage (3.5 PPM)
• Shield Breaker for 71.75 Lethal damage (3.5 PPM)
• Analyze Weakness for +20% +ToHit for 10s (2.0 PPM)

 

 

 

Whoa whoa whoa ... hold on.  Are you, Redlynne ... telling us, the proc monster build community ... that "worthless T1 power" Infrigidate in Cold Domination can be slotted with up to FIVE 3.5 PPM procs that will each have a 90% chance to proc ... and that you can just use the 6th slot for ... Accuracy ... or for an Accuracy/* set IO to pick up a 2-slot set bonus ... AND THAT'S ALL YOU HAVE TO DO?!?

 

Um ... yeah ... I kind of am saying exactly that.

You can turn Infrigidate into a power with a statistical 72.9% chance to proc all three different damage procs for a combined 215.25 damage of Smashing, Lethal and Negative Energy types in a single attack as fast as your global recharge bonuses will allow you to cycle the power ... AND you can have the same power pretty reliably applying procs for recharge debuffing AND resistance debuffing right along with all that damage.

 

 

 

Somehow, I get the feeling that a lot of Cold Domination builds are going to be reaching for respec tokens after reading this posting.  Call it a hunch.

 

[Nyghtmaire]

I’m salivating brimstone-flavored slurpees...

 

*scurries out of the Corruptor boards to respec demon/cold build*

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

I've been meaning to ask someone about this whole procmonster business.

It seems that the proc build mindset is as follows and please correct me where I'm wrong.

 

Get max global recharge. Don't slot recharge in attacks. Use 3 or 4 procs per attack and use the other two slots for acc/dam. Or even as you point out here, 5 procs and a single acc/dam.

Then I guess ageless as the only possible option for Destiny cuz you're damn well gonna need all that end since you're not slotting end-red in your attacks.

 

And that with this philosophy, the old mindset of max recharge for tight attack chains (read: claws with fu, focus, slash, repeat) needs to go the way of the dodo because procmonstering is the only way to fly if you want max damage?

 

Edit: Also, very cool find on infrigidate.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bopper]

48 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Get max global recharge. Don't slot recharge in attacks

Correct

49 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Then I guess ageless as the only possible option for Destiny cuz you're damn well gonna need all that end since you're not slotting end-red in your attacks

Not true. But it certainly is a popular choice.

50 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And that with this philosophy, the old mindset of max recharge for tight attack chains (read: claws with fu, focus, slash, repeat) needs to go the way of the dodo because procmonstering is the only way to fly if you want max damage?

It depends. You should compare the dps of a traditional attack chain with the dps of a proc-based attack chain, then decide.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

Infrigidate is a "worthless" T1 power in a powerset that isn't all that popular

Is it worthless? Seems like a pretty awesome debuff power. But you're right, it is an ideal power for procs: longish base recharge with a quick animation time. The -recharge debuff proc can probably be skipped though. Odds are your enemy will already be capped at the -75% recharge limit (infridgidate and snowstorm does -150% and I forget what sleet does, so odds are even if resisted, you will cap it).

 

But like you said, a 1 sec animation power that you can cast every ~5 seconds to do 215 damage while debuffing defense and resistance is awesome. Personally I would 4 slot it with the 3 damage procs and Achilles. Since you're already debuffing defense, you won't need the +tohit (but if you have a slot to spare, it is a nice buff for your other attacks)

[Frosticus]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Get max global recharge. Don't slot recharge in attacks. Use 3 or 4 procs per attack and use the other two slots for acc/dam. Or even as you point out here, 5 procs and a single acc/dam.

Then I guess ageless as the only possible option for Destiny cuz you're damn well gonna need all that end since you're not slotting end-red in your attacks.

 

And that with this philosophy, the old mindset of max recharge for tight attack chains (read: claws with fu, focus, slash, repeat) needs to go the way of the dodo because procmonstering is the only way to fly if you want max damage?

 

I take it a step further and strive for 5 damage procs, maybe even 6 if the AT has a low damage scalar. I havent played a build that doesnt accept a lot of procs in awhile, so no sets like fire melee for instance. 

 

I use either nerve, or if I can get enough tohit and set bonuses then I use musculature. 

Ageless tends to be important not only for the endurance but also for the 20% ish global rech buff it offers over the life to help hasten because set bonuses take a major hit. 

 

If your ideal chain used 3 attacks you probably need 4 on a proc build. Some sets have similar dpa across multiple attacks so that is ok. Those that dont may need to consider if it is worthwhile.

 

for example my stone/bio brute has 5 damage procs in most attacks, often 6 procs total. The damage is roughly the same as if I slotted more traditionally and maximized recharge, but in the event that I'm ever damage capped then my damage is way ahead of where it would be. plus it is a fun experiment.

 

[Redlynne]

8 hours ago, Nyghtmaire said:

I’m salivating brimstone-flavored slurpees...

 

*scurries out of the Corruptor boards to respec demon/cold build*

8 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I've been meaning to ask someone about this whole procmonster business.

It seems that the proc build mindset is as follows and please correct me where I'm wrong.

Best answer I can give you is ... IT DEPENDS ... mainly because all the demonology is in the details.  The details of the build, in its entirety, matters a great deal.  It also depends on what you're striving/reaching for in your builds whether or not going the proc monster route is a superior option for you, partly because doing so will "negate" the value of specific powers as sources of set bonuses (or at least, the useful set bonuses that are like 4 or 5 slots deep usually).

 

Also, since the current build planner doesn't compute proc chances for us, all the math for doing this stuff "has to be done by hand" right now, which is why discoveries such as this one for Infrigidate are still lurking out there waiting to be discovered (or in this case were discovered last night just before I posted here and in the Defender forums).  Suffice it to say, there are enough ... variables ... in play for how build construct a build that it's often times an open question as to whether including a proc (for damage, mez or buffing/debuffing) is a "better" option than the alternative, making it a judgement call rather than a clear cut no brainer in many cases.  At that point, it becomes a question of "style" for how you want your character to play and behave in combat, and the "shaping" of your own expectations for that facet of the gameplay experience.

8 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And that with this philosophy, the old mindset of max recharge for tight attack chains (read: claws with fu, focus, slash, repeat) needs to go the way of the dodo because procmonstering is the only way to fly if you want max damage?

Not ... necessarily ...

 

Again, the details of what's going on in a granular sense matter.  You need to look at performance throughputs using multiple frames of reference.  The infinite time horizon will give you average outputs over time, but tell you remarkably little about what to expect within a 3-5 hit chain before moving on to the next $Target because what you were just smacking around is already faceplanted.

 

In a lot of cases, the procs function more like chances for critical hits, and the damage that they deal is not subject to the damage enhancement cap (because it's "extra" damage that isn't being enhanced) so there are ways to "finesse" things depending on what you're doing with your build.

 

Or to put it another way ... just because you've got a cookie cutter that doesn't mean you're the master of all cookie shapes ... (so to speak).

8 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Edit: Also, very cool find on infrigidate.

Best part is that the math behind this discovery works the same for every (single target non-chaining click attack) power in the game that has a combined base recharge plus animation time of 16 seconds, has no recharge in it and gets slotted with 3.5 PPM procs.

 

3.5 * 16 / 60 = 93.33%

3.5 * 15.4285714 / 60 = 90%

 

So yeah, I "found" this statistical edge case with Infrigidate, but it's not LIMITED to only being true for Infrigidate.  I'm sure there are other powers out there that can springboard off the same basic setup, such as Ice Arrow out of Trick Arrows, or Time Stop in Time Manipulation, for example (although obviously the parameters are slightly different in their cases due to base recharge plus animation time factors which allow more recharge to be added before hitting the 90% cap on proc chances).

8 hours ago, Bopper said:

Is it worthless? Seems like a pretty awesome debuff power.

Depends on your perspective, I guess.  I'm just accustomed to every build post feeling like the author has to "apologize" for taking the T1 power (at all) and if it's the secondary T1 there's often times a sense of resentment towards "needing" to take the power at all.  And yes, it's an awesome debuff power, but I can easily envision it being something people are accustomed to devoting 1 slot to (as a mule at best) and then forgetting about it and/or never using it.  I'd like to think that this discovery, courtesy of your hard work @Bopper and the research it incentivized @Sir Myshkin to do on this topic might have people start looking at "old powers in a new light" due to this specific discovery.

8 hours ago, Bopper said:

But you're right, it is an ideal power for procs: longish base recharge with a quick animation time. The -recharge debuff proc can probably be skipped though. Odds are your enemy will already be capped at the -75% recharge limit (infridgidate and snowstorm does -150% and I forget what sleet does, so odds are even if resisted, you will cap it).

That's assuming you're stacking all of those powers together AND assuming your debuffs aren't being modified by Level differences.  Remember, against a +4 $Target your debuff effects are reduced, but the Pacing of the Turtle proc is something the $Target casts onto themselves meaning that the -20% Recharge for 20s is NOT modified/reduced by the Level difference(s) between yourself and your $Target.  And while you CAN stack all of those powers together onto a single $Target (such as an AV or a GM), there are going to be times where you won't want to stack those specific powers, or you can't maintain 100% uptime (or whatever) ... and you would have been better off just spending the 1 additional slot on Infrigidate to cover that edge case.

8 hours ago, Bopper said:

Personally I would 4 slot it with the 3 damage procs and Achilles. Since you're already debuffing defense, you won't need the +tohit (but if you have a slot to spare, it is a nice buff for your other attacks)

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that slotting the Analyze Weakness proc into Infrigidate would be a waste of a slot, all things considered ... but I included it in the listing simply for completeness of information so people can decide for themselves what they value most when it comes to slotting Infrigidate.

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Also, since the current build planner doesn't compute proc chances for us

This should be added in next update. I had been helping the programmer with this and we were able to get toggles and clicks working. However pseudopets are a different problem and won't be fixed until later.

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Remember, against a +4 $Target your debuff effects are reduced, but the Pacing of the Turtle proc is something the $Target casts onto themselves meaning that the -20% Recharge for 20s is NOT modified/reduced by the Level difference(s) between yourself and your $Target

Is this still true? I've seen other debuffs that have been described the same way actually get impacted by the purple patch. But in any sense, it still makes your point, assuming resists and purple patch, the 150+% I quoted may not be enough (I do assume sleet and snowstorm are applied as they are AoEs, SS is a toggle so you'd anchor that on your hardest target and keep it on, and sleet offers good debuffs).

 

So it would be worth a test to see if those powers combines could floor a targets recharge ro -75% on a +3 AV/GM/EB.

[Extor Prime]

This thread cost me several hours of crippling indecision, a respec, 2% AoE defense and 0.7% of Fire/Cold defense. 

 

And I'm not even a corruptor.

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Extor Prime said:

This thread cost me several hours of crippling indecision, a respec, 2% AoE defense and 0.7% of Fire/Cold defense. 

 

And I'm not even a corruptor.

[ExeErdna]

Yeah, I saw this on my Ice/Cold and I do have a spare node I can throw up there for lulz.

[Sir Myshkin]

14 hours ago, Redlynne said:

So yeah, I "found" this statistical edge case with Infrigidate, but it's not LIMITED to only being true for Infrigidate.  I'm sure there are other powers out there that can springboard off the same basic setup, such as Ice Arrow out of Trick Arrows, or Time Stop in Time Manipulation, for example (although obviously the parameters are slightly different in their cases due to base recharge plus animation time factors which allow more recharge to be added before hitting the 90% cap on proc chances).

There's going to be quite a few outlier one-off's in several sets that are good choices to load up on a ton of procs, they're just not always stuffed into a set that already contains a ton of other options. Cold in general doesn't have a huge slew of benefits out of Procs so there will be those outlier choices people are going to have to decide on for themselves.

 

And yes Ice Arrow, when loaded up with all its options, becomes a high-yield DPA attack, but Time Stop on the other hand doesn't balance out as well. Its other features are a little hit-or-miss, and its animation doesn't lend well for a good DPA balance (imo), but you can slot it up as a one-hit-wonder if needed.

 

On 10/10/2019 at 10:43 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

And that with this philosophy, the old mindset of max recharge for tight attack chains (read: claws with fu, focus, slash, repeat) needs to go the way of the dodo because procmonstering is the only way to fly if you want max damage?

Not every set, for every AT, can actually pull this methodology off. Melee sets can get a lot of traction since there's a pretty wide variety of melee-based damage procs available, but in the cases of things like the Blast sets, there's far fewer options that really validate a "proc build." The thing you have to decide is whether you can sacrifice your core attacks from any kind of set bonus, and then decide if you can make your build work with only 2-3 functional enhancement slots per attack. In most cases you're either going to need Intuition Radial, Musculature (Core or Radial), or Nerve (either) to ramp either damage, or accuracy in your build. I found it generally easier to pile in extra to-hit/accuracy in most cases and leaned more towards the damage improvement. Get your attacks into a position of being able to hit +3 (minimum), and 80-ish% damage, and Musculature/Intuition will get you over that hump into the 100-110% range. You can still get reasonable end cost reduction in their too, and might even be surprised at how well most builds can function on what feels like a gimped endurance plan.

[Hopestar]

Finally got time to play again and retool my Cold/Cold Defender and well, it already has too many procs as it is, but I managed to fit this in. My only issue is Cold/ benefits from Recharge, End Mod, and Defense boosts a lot and that means Agility Core is the best choice of Alpha incarnate ^{(also I don't feel like paying for a new incarnate)}, which then screws up the nice procs that Ice/Ice has, in this case Infrigidate loses about 20% chance to proc. Still it's a great power for Bosses and AVs with some nice procs even if they hit every other time.

 

DoctorDeepfreeze_Defender_Cold_Cold.mxd

Edited October 12, 2019 by Hopestar

[Redlynne]

Okay ... wait ... I've made the guy(?) who compiles build posts on these forums remake one of their own builds with this post?

 

Damn ... karma ... 💫

[Hopestar]

The sad truth is, I think I min/max my builds more often than I actually play the build and am probably one of the largest consumers of respecs thanks to these forums and discord. I'm constantly learning new ways to improve a build even a little and I know for a fact I don't know half of what I probably should know by now.

 

I'm now in an eternal war with PPM vs Set Bonus benefits thanks to things like:

"Now I get 200 damage out of a previously non-damaging power"

"But 10% global recharge"

"But it completes my attack chain"

"But 10% global recharge"

 

[Extor Prime]

As an Ill/Cold controller (it's a magical combination), I just don't work without high recharge. Which means Agility incarnate is a must, and those set bonuses have to be there.

 

So after some hair-pulling, I settled on 4-slotting Infrigidate with Pacing of the Turtle A/E, Achilles Heel, Lady Grey chance for Negative and Impeded Swiftness Chance for Smashing.

 

140 damage every so often and a res debuff is a pretty decent step up from a previously non-damaging debuff power. I decided to not push it as I simply don't have any more slots to steal from anywhere else without losing either recharge or defense caps.