Personal Issue with AE and the slower slog of normal content.

[Abraxus]

As is typically the case in discussions of this kind, I believe we have arrived at the point where we all agree that CoH provides multiple avenues for acquiring XP, and folks are free to choose which best suites them, their time availability, and their play style.  Thank goodness for a game that provides all of that, and for a community that recognizes that differences don't necessarily equate to argument, or ill will.  We all play the game because we love it, and how we play is as different as we are as individuals. 

 

I see nothing wrong with any of that.

[roleki]

As much as I am thankful to have the game back, I am even moreso that the community surrounding the return has been, by and large, amazing.  The help channel is always alive and useful, people on teams are having a great time, costume contests and active SGs all over...  By all appearances, everything is rolling just great. 

 

I simply cannot fathom how some fans of this game can look at all that is happening and choose to spend their time advocating for the dismantling of a feature that has no impact whatsoever on their own experience, other than it is not the way THEY do things. 

 

I would VASTLY prefer to be in the AT forums, looking at builds I want to try or seeing how others overcame a specific obstacle of a given powerset, but since niggling complainers have a pretty successful track record of getting their petulant whims implemented by devs, I kind of feel like I have to put my out-of-game time towards repeating the question they cannot ever answer straight: how does MY farming diminish THEIR game experience?

[eldriyth]

19 hours ago, eldriyth said:

 

Were they seriously considering adding a instant level to 50 option in P2W? I don't think it's a bad idea honestly. If it was more "regular" to have quick 50's I could probably get into them easier

Edited October 16, 2019 by eldriyth

[MTeague]

I have zero problems with AE existing, though I have not and will not ever use a designated Farm mission on any character, ever. 

I will use AE to surf for missions with actual story content.  Some of those are disappointing, some are truly amazing. 

 

But my characters, mostly I level doing normal story arc content. Not AE at all.  Not even TF's.  Just talking to contacts and doing a variety of street sweeping or door missions.

 

Please do NOT take this option away from me or trivialize it into a speed-levelling experience. 

If you touch story arcs at all, please make them more like Praetoria, where the arcs are exceptionally well written and it has a greater feel of your choices impacting the world.  

[Lines]

Just now, eldriyth said:

Were they seriously considering adding a instant level to 50 option in P2W? I don't think it's a bad idea honestly. If it was more "regular" to have quick 50's I could probably get into them easier.

I can’t find the thread in suggestions easily (stuff in there gets buried quick), but Leandro gave a pretty decisive no to this idea.

 

I feel that both HC and the Live devs have made 1-50 easy enough, but that’s coming from someone who likes the levelling process.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

40 minutes ago, Lines said:

I can’t find the thread in suggestions easily (stuff in there gets buried quick), but Leandro gave a pretty decisive no to this idea.

 

I feel that both HC and the Live devs have made 1-50 easy enough, but that’s coming from someone who likes the levelling process.

My suggestion was within a GD thread not its own post on suggestions. But yes at this point I think the only way to sate Power Gamers so they wont ruin content with exploitive( IE unintended approaches to content)) behavior is to give them no reason to step into AE.

 

As for rewards frankly Id remove RNG entirely and simply award merits based on time inside missions. And yes I do know that would equal some just sitting afk in mishes for hours. but ultimately if that is how they choose to engage the mish rather then doing many mishes in the same time, when a standardized time for reward system it would also remove all reason to actively farm instead of just playing.

[Lockpick]

On 10/15/2019 at 1:06 PM, eldriyth said:

I am frustrated because every single character that I create and try to get through the normal game solo, ends up going to AE because the experience of normal content can't even come close to matching it. However, if the AE option was not there players would be forced to go through normal content regardless. Having this 2 hour boost to 50 option just ruins the game completely. I think something needs to be done to make old content worth it again. Why even allow this monstrosity to exist? This is coming from a dude with a Alpha + 3 unlocked Spine/Fire brute. I have actually deleted over 2 level 50s I power leveled because I just can't get into them. I feel like I didn't even earn them.

 

And if AE is dealt with, make normal content more plentiful for a solo player. How about making missions where you have to kill all NPCs reward like 10 elite bosses worth of exp at the end? Something that feels nice as a reward.

/JRanger

[RikOz]

3 hours ago, MTeague said:

I will use AE to surf for missions with actual story content.  Some of those are disappointing, some are truly amazing.

And there are far too few of them. There were a handful of AE story arcs I really enjoyed back on live, but unfortunately they have not returned the way some of the "top" arcs came back. Those arcs I especially liked were more lighthearted and humorous. I remember one where you teamed up with an alternate-universe Albert Einstein, and another pretty hilarious arc where you had to stop Arachnos' efforts to smuggle dihydrogen monoxide into Paragon City (it was based upon the real-world dihydrogen monoxide hoax). I seem to recall playing some of the arcs that did get resurrected, back on live, but while I thought they were very well done, they were a bit too grim for my taste. I've also encountered a few that looked interesting, but they were marked for "levels 45-53" or some other high-level range, meaning I can't really enjoy them on a lowbie toon.

 

I do still recall the time back on live when I stumbled into my first fire farm, not realizing what it was. Zoned in, immediately died, chose a different mission.

[nightroarer]

12 minutes ago, RikOz said:

And there are far too few of them. There were a handful of AE story arcs I really enjoyed back on live, but unfortunately they have not returned the way some of the "top" arcs came back. Those arcs I especially liked were more lighthearted and humorous. I remember one where you teamed up with an alternate-universe Albert Einstein, and another pretty hilarious arc where you had to stop Arachnos' efforts to smuggle dihydrogen monoxide into Paragon City (it was based upon the real-world dihydrogen monoxide hoax). I seem to recall playing some of the arcs that did get resurrected, back on live, but while I thought they were very well done, they were a bit too grim for my taste. I've also encountered a few that looked interesting, but they were marked for "levels 45-53" or some other high-level range, meaning I can't really enjoy them on a lowbie toon.

 

I do still recall the time back on live when I stumbled into my first fire farm, not realizing what it was. Zoned in, immediately died, chose a different mission.

I had a story arc on live called "Granny Granite and the Senior Moment Gang." Most people who played it gave nice reviews. Unfortunately, I don't seem to have saved the mission folder from my old PC. I have the custom critters/custom groups, but not the mission text itself.

[RikOz]

AE actually kinda came to my rescue recently. I'd been having this aggravating internet problem where my connection would drop for just an instant and come right back up. Except it was just long enough to make my router have to go through its whole handshake process with the modem. So every few minutes I'd get dumped out of the game ("Lost connection to mapserver"), which made trying to run missions or join teams pointless. One time I had that alignment mission to apprehend a couple dirty cops who were hiding out with the Carnies (my least-favorite enemy group), and three times in a row I fought all the way to the back of the map, approached the first dirty cop, and my connection dropped. So, just for something to do, I was spamming one particular XP farm, simply because it was very quick and I had a good chance of being able to actually complete it before my internet went down again, and also because it was so non-dangerous that I was unlikely to die if my connection dropped while I was in combat.

Edited October 16, 2019 by RikOz

[Lines]

12 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

My suggestion was within a GD thread not its own post on suggestions. But yes at this point I think the only way to sate Power Gamers so they wont ruin content with exploitive( IE unintended approaches to content)) behavior is to give them no reason to step into AE.

That explains why I couldn’t find it!

 

 

I don’t know about others, but I’ve stopped even noticing the XP bar. I’ve clocked somewhere around 600 level ups on HC so far, they’ve become something I don’t celebrate anymore. I no longer rush to the trainer after each ding unless I know there’s immediate value in doing so. I even had a few hours before I realised one toon had hit 50 and was well into their Alpha slot.

 

And that’s without AE, just regular content. XP just isn’t a significant part of the game for me and I don’t notice the grind as it stands.

 

I have a petless MM which I levelled petlessly (and realised, far too late, what a terrible idea that was), and I ran her through the Tunnel Witch AE farm maybe a dozen or so times to get her through the teens. That for me was significantly more painful and grindy, and I was waiting for that XP bar to grow so I could get on with playing her.

 

I know folks feel the complete opposite, that doing normal* content 1-50 is the grind and AE farming is the relief. OP has noticed that this can create an irritating dissonance, but it remains a very personal issue.

 

*is there a better term than normal or regular that we can use, as though AE were abnormal or irregular? Vanilla, maybe?

[Lost Ninja]

I dearly hope they never add an instant 50 to P2W (or anywhere else) without some kind of hard to get method for unlocking. (Like one of each AT at 50 with no AE badges on any.)

 

Because: A)I'd totally use it and just like using cheats in offline games it would spoil some of the fun (online I don't cheat or feel the need to, offline I cannot seem to help myself... especially memory editors and speed hacks), and B)An awful lot of the people who don't AE would just grab a "legit" fast 50 and already somewhat empty zones would be even emptier. Yes many would stick levelling out and play the game the way it was designed to be played but adding Instant 50s would make the issues that AE farms already cause even worse.

[EmmySky]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

 

*is there a better term than normal or regular that we can use, as though AE were abnormal or irregular? Vanilla, maybe?

I tend to use the term old-school but that could be ambiguous as to what it refers.  I like vanilla but it could be construed to mean how the game was intended to be played or also refer to the use of SOs as I see time and again that 'the game is balanced around SOs'.  I vote we all just stay confused ... That'll cut down on the time we have to be offended 😁

Edited October 17, 2019 by EmmySky

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

5 hours ago, Lost Ninja said:

I dearly hope they never add an instant 50 to P2W (or anywhere else) without some kind of hard to get method for unlocking. (Like one of each AT at 50 with no AE badges on any.)

 

Because: A)I'd totally use it and just like using cheats in offline games it would spoil some of the fun (online I don't cheat or feel the need to, offline I cannot seem to help myself... especially memory editors and speed hacks), and B)An awful lot of the people who don't AE would just grab a "legit" fast 50 and already somewhat empty zones would be even emptier. Yes many would stick levelling out and play the game the way it was designed to be played but adding Instant 50s would make the issues that AE farms already cause even worse.

What issues? The only real issue AE ever caused more then the other forms of PLving in this game was the fact it could all be done in Atlas Park and thus we could get newbs who never left atlas trying to join things like TFs spread across multiple zones who constantly needed directions.

 

Farmers do provide the rest of the casual community with access to the rarest drops via the AH. PLvers could accomplish one day to cap PLving with ladder characters. That is literally how most of the major SGs recruited by offering such a service. They also were the biggest complainers about AE farms because they lost a tool that basically let them bribe people into their ranks.

 

Since I really doubt all that many coh newbs are happening, as like 99% of all people Ive chatted with in HC so far are long time vets of the old live version, I dont see the risk of the AE babies becoming a common issue as it did for a time on live. Lets be honest here even if HC becomes legit its never going to see some huge population explosion of new comers who never played the game before.

 

So yes considering how many on these very forums do say  "I PL because I am bored to death of leveling up through content I know with my eyes closed", I do see enough real want for a auto 50 option with no strings attached that maybe the HC team should give it a serious  consideration.

 

Especially if by doing so we can get most of the PL crowd( not farm crowd though there is overlap) out of AE and thus reduce the number of PL farms being created.

 

I mean I do get the desire, and I have been happy myself enjoying remaking many of my old 50s. However it can indeed be wearying. Ive been giving this game a lot less time the last couple months because its simply not possible to keep doing the same old arcs for many characters for months on end. And yeah I likely would use the auto 50 myself at least for a few of my old 50s Ive been putting off because they indeed did not get fun till they had all their powers. Some builds just are not much fun to lvl with.

[roleki]

If people want an auto-50 button that's fine by me, but if an auto-50 button arrives at the expense of AE farming it becomes decidedly less-fine-by-me.  I farm to level up my alts and use the inf I earn during that process to pay for their builds; having an instant 50 is useless if I still have to put in 40 hours of door missions and ITFs to acquire IOs, and that's only 40 hours assuming the cost of IOs/salvage doesn't skyrocket due to fewer being dumped in the AH.  

 

This thing, it isn't broken.  The fact that we are even here 15 years later should be a good indication that it's not broken.  The fact that every month's funding goal is met in minutes should be a good indication that it's not broken.  The fact that min/max nerds, surly farmers, RP zealots, wide-eyed PUG seekers and various other citizens with time to kill can ALL find value in launching this particular executable should be a good indication that it's not broken.  

 

Let's not break it trying to make it perfect for one community demographic or another.

[Xeres]

I do the slower normal content.  I'm fine with it.

[QuiJon]

On 10/15/2019 at 11:06 AM, eldriyth said:

I am frustrated because every single character that I create and try to get through the normal game solo, ends up going to AE because the experience of normal content can't even come close to matching it. However, if the AE option was not there players would be forced to go through normal content regardless. Having this 2 hour boost to 50 option just ruins the game completely. I think something needs to be done to make old content worth it again. Why even allow this monstrosity to exist? This is coming from a dude with a Alpha + 3 unlocked Spine/Fire brute. I have actually deleted over 2 level 50s I power leveled because I just can't get into them. I feel like I didn't even earn them.

 

And if AE is dealt with, make normal content more plentiful for a solo player. How about making missions where you have to kill all NPCs reward like 10 elite bosses worth of exp at the end? Something that feels nice as a reward.

So what you are saying is punish other players that have no problem taking or leaving playstyles they do or dont want to use because you have no willpower to stick to you own convictions that pl in ae is wrong and can not say no to the temptation. Bet you are also one of those dudes that if he decides he wants to quit drinking insists all his roommates do as well cause after all why should anyone get to do it if you say its bad.

[XaoGarrent]

On 10/15/2019 at 3:02 PM, mcdoogss said:

Also, to the OPs point if AE didn't exist people would farm portal missions like the old days.  Removing AE or AE farm maps will never remove farming.

People still farm portal corp missions. Door stomping in PI is also super common. None of the old metas really died because, frankly, they still work well enough.

[ILIWAPCT]

No one has said it but if you don't like "normal content" then you don't like the game.

That's fine, it's a old game and not for everyone.

 

It was the same way back on Live.

People want to press a button and have a level 50 pop out.

Then a few weeks later  complain about wanting more end game content.

 

Now I understand why people are asking for more end game content. 

You're skipping the whole game!

[XaoGarrent]

3 minutes ago, ILIWAPCT said:

No one has said it but if you don't like "normal content" then you don't like the game.

That's fine, it's a old game and not for everyone.

 

It was the same way back on Live.

People want to press a button and have a level 50 pop out.

Then a few weeks later  complain about wanting more end game content.

 

Now I understand why people are asking for more end game content. 

You're skipping the whole game!

Everything prior to 22 is a complete slog for most sets, even with inherent fitness, and most builds don't really feel like they're coming together in a fully coherent functional manner until at least the late 20s or early 30s.

 

There's a meme that regularly does the rounds that goes along the lines of "the real game starts at 50" and there's a good reason for that. The game regularly gives me the impression that what it really wants me to do regarding existing content is to burn my way all the way to cap and then SK down or use Oro for story content. It's way, way more fun to do it that way than the "proper" or "normal" way.

 

Champions Online actually managed to mostly fix this problem, it's just a shame about... Almost everything else. I really long for the day someone releases a superhero MMO with the kind of story and style City of Heroes has, the character creation depth of Champions Online, and a new initiative: Be less MMO and more Superhero.

[ILIWAPCT]

12 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Everything prior to 22 is a complete slog for most sets, even with inherent fitness, and most builds don't really feel like they're coming together in a fully coherent functional manner until at least the late 20s or early 30s.

 

There's a meme that regularly does the rounds that goes along the lines of "the real game starts at 50" and there's a good reason for that. The game regularly gives me the impression that what it really wants me to do regarding existing content is to burn my way all the way to cap and then SK down or use Oro for story content. It's way, way more fun to do it that way than the "proper" or "normal" way.

 

Champions Online actually managed to mostly fix this problem, it's just a shame about... Almost everything else. I really long for the day someone releases a superhero MMO with the kind of story and style City of Heroes has, the character creation depth of Champions Online, and a new initiative: Be less MMO and more Superhero.

In the beginning...

My alts have to walk around like normal mortals through the streets and around buildings.

As they progress they get  their travel power...

 

But like I said this game isn't for everyone and that's fine.

[XaoGarrent]

6 minutes ago, ILIWAPCT said:

In the beginning...

My alts have to walk around like normal mortals through the streets and around buildings.

As they progress they get  their travel power...

 

But like I said this game isn't for everyone and that's fine.

I remember back before a lot of these shortcuts, QoL improvements and new features were added. I remember what the game's market was like, how grindy it was, and frankly how low the population was.

 

This isn't 2004 anymore. Even by the middle of the 2000s the kind of grind and downtime the game had back then was looked down upon in MMOs. You say it's not a game for everyone, but what you're asking for is going to make it a game for no one.

[ILIWAPCT]

3 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I remember back before a lot of these shortcuts, QoL improvements and new features were added. I remember what the game's market was like, how grindy it was, and frankly how low the population was.

 

This isn't 2004 anymore. Even by the middle of the 2000s the kind of grind and downtime the game had back then was looked down upon in MMOs. You say it's not a game for everyone, but what you're asking for is going to make it a game for no one.

You may be happy the NC shut the game down.

You don't have to like COH  but this isn't Champions Online.

 

[XaoGarrent]

3 minutes ago, ILIWAPCT said:

You may be happy the NC shut the game down.

You don't have to like COH  but this isn't Champions Online.

 

You need to stop arguing against a strawman. It makes you look really, really bad.

[QuiJon]

59 minutes ago, ILIWAPCT said:

No one has said it but if you don't like "normal content" then you don't like the game.

That's fine, it's a old game and not for everyone.

 

It was the same way back on Live.

People want to press a button and have a level 50 pop out.

Then a few weeks later  complain about wanting more end game content.

 

Now I understand why people are asking for more end game content. 

You're skipping the whole game!

We ask for more eng game content because in order to maximize a character you are essentially repeating the same 5-6 things over and over again. So UNLIKE being able to play up to level 50 if you choose to and having hundreds of contacts and storyline to progress your character to 50 you have really next to nothing in comparison for finishing slotting out IOs and incarnate powers and doing that can honestly take longer then reaching 50 even by normal game play.