Improving Controllers

[Bugmaster]

Right now, Controllers face three problems:

 

1). Their primary ability -- Control -- is pretty much irrelevant during the end-game, as well as during most TFs. Groups of lower-level enemies will die in seconds, and AVs are prohibitively difficult to hard-control (though they can still be debuffed).

2). If you do want hard Control, Dominators will always be better at it, since most of them will have permanent Domination.

3). Subjectively speaking, "Overpower" just doesn't feel very impactful (to me personally), due to its randomness.

 

Proposed solution: change the way Overpower works. Instead of granting a chance for a +1 Magnitude effect, grant a global Magnitude bonus to your Control effects, based on how many of your Control effects are layered onto the target. This way, casting a single Hold onto an enemy may not Hold them; however, casting Hold and Disorient and Fear and Sleep might push them over the edge into being Held, due to the bonus from 4 different Control effects. A nice side-effect of this solution is that it makes Sleep useful in large groups (as a Control-booster, at least).

 

 

[heywoods1230]

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1). Their primary ability -- Control -- is pretty much irrelevant during the end-game, as well as during most TFs. Groups of lower-level enemies will die in seconds.

All roles in the game that aren't damage are suffering from things just dying way too fast. This needs to be addressed first before design or balance changes can be considered for individual archetype and roles. I would start with a global increase in HP of enemies level 47+ by 30% and see how that plays.

 

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2). If you do want hard Control, Dominators will always be better at it, since most of them will have permanent Domination.

I definitely feel this haha. I was okay with this until they allowed traditional Hero & Villain archetypes to cross-pollinate.

 

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3). Subjectively speaking, "Overpower" just doesn't feel very impactful (to me personally), due to its randomness.

I wouldn't say it's exactly random, right? If my CC > my targets mez protection then overpower is active. I would like to see Overpower in its current form be available solo & on a team, but if a controller is teamed, there should be something else it does that fits more into the "control" theme.

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AVs are prohibitively difficult to hard-control (though they can still be debuffed).

 

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Proposed solution: change the way Overpower works. Instead of granting a chance for a +1 Magnitude effect, grant a global Magnitude bonus to your Control effects, based on how many of your Control effects are layered onto the target. This way, casting a single Hold onto an enemy may not Hold them; however, casting Hold and Disorient and Fear and Sleep might push them over the edge into being Held, due to the bonus from 4 different Control effects. A nice side-effect of this solution is that it makes Sleep useful in large groups (as a Control-booster, at least).

I am okay with AVs being difficult to hard CC right now given how easy the game currently is, but in a world where AVs lived longer than a minute & it required a higher skill cap to achieve CC on an AV like what you are proposing I am all for this or a similar solution!

 

I think your proposal is a step in the right direction, but it won't have as much success if the average TTM (time-to-kill) in this game isn't fixed first.

Edited October 23, 2019 by heywoods1230

[Bossk_Hogg]

Yeah, it's more that COH steamrolls a bit too easy for pretty much anything not AE damage or buffs to "matter" late game.

 

My best suggestion is to have more difficulty slider options (going up to +8) and partially rolling back the effects of the purple patch on debuffs/controls. As it stands, buffs aren't resisted, so the purple patch disproportionately impacts some sets/AT's more than others. Then up drop rates and influence on higher level foes to encourage people to tackle harder content/settings, or possibly have certain enhancements that only drop in and function for higher level content. Like pvp enhancements but for with the extra bonus for "raid/54+" content.

[biostem]

One thing that I thought should have been implemented from day 1 is to have a sliding scale of debuffing effects from "unaffected" to "completely locked-down".  Right now, an enemy is either held or they operate at 100% effectiveness, (barring any secondary effects a mez power might impart that are secondary to its actual hold effect).  What if, for instance, a hold would apply a slow, then a recharge debuff, then a tohit debuff, then a damage resist/defense debuff, and so on, culminating in the total lock-down, once enough mag is reached? 

Edited October 23, 2019 by biostem

[Galaxy Brain]

17 minutes ago, biostem said:

One thing that I thought should have been implemented from day 1 is to have a sliding scale of debuffing effects from "unaffected" to "completely locked-down".  Right now, an enemy is either held or they operate at 100% effectiveness, (barring any secondary effects a mez power might impart that are secondary to its actual hold effect).  What if, for instance, a hold would apply a slow, then a recharge debuff, then a tohit debuff, then a damage resist/defense debuff, and so on, culminating in the total lock-down, once enough mag is reached? 

This could effectively be done by attaching those effects to all "Mez" powers to emphasize the effects as you stack up to a hold. Sets like Ice Control already sorta do this as the ST hold applies a slow regardless of if it holds. The debuffs could be increased for sure.

 

As for the base idea, I feel that is a natural extension of their Containment inherit already! Applying a control effect -> double damage, it should also apply where applying a control -> double mag on the next control, or at least a +1 mag if you have already hit with a primary / control power to allow better stacking.

[Sailboat]

And, as is the case in all conversations about difficulty/steamrolling/AT balance/relevance of anything other than spike damage, accompanying reduction of gigantic Incarnate AoEs would help.

[Galaxy Brain]

8 minutes ago, Sailboat said:

And, as is the case in all conversations about difficulty/steamrolling/AT balance/relevance of anything other than spike damage, accompanying reduction of gigantic Incarnate AoEs would help.

Yeah, the Incarnate Nukes are pretty redonk. 

 

I had mentioned this in another thread, but adding more options to enemies that make it easier to damage them if locked down is a path that could be taken. For example, more flying enemies or speedsters that are a pain to fight unless you got Holds / Immob.

[ShardWarrior]

22 hours ago, heywoods1230 said:

All roles in the game that aren't damage are suffering from things just dying way too fast. This needs to be addressed first before design or balance changes can be considered for individual archetype and roles. I would start with a global increase in HP of enemies level 47+ by 30% and see how that plays.

Not sure that solves anything other than turning the game into boring slog of punching bags of HP until they die.

[Erydanus]

There were 2 pretty big nerfs that lowered controllers role in the meta in the classic game and I think both of them could be reverted and would just bring them closer inline to other ATs.

 

1. revert the change where all controller AoE holds became half duration and double cooldown (and was the 60% base accuracy instead of 75% base accuracy added in that too? Maybe.) AoE holds aren't a staple of play and it's not going to create the "punching statues" meta but it would increase build choice and help holding tougher foes when that was desired.

 

2. revert the change where all controller epic pool damage was halved, because the devs "forgot" they got containment on them. It's not going to be huge but it would be nice supplemental damage at higher levels. 

[Bossk_Hogg]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

Not sure that solves anything other than turning the game into boring slog of punching bags of HP until they die.

But stuff really needs to live a little longer to make debuffs/buffs/control more worthwhile at upper levels. Partially rolling back the effects of the purple patch would help with the "slog" as well, and give support AT's more chance to shine. Right now many run TF's at +0, which makes anything but AE damage, buffs and maaaaybe an alpha soaker more or less pointless. The reason they do this is because there's no real extra rewards for harder settings, and the purple patch makes it needlessly take longer.

 

If stuff lived longer, we could actually use more than a handful of powers. Make it an optional setting with corresponding reward increase and I think people will jump on board.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

If additional difficulty also gave more reward (Merits possibly?) that would be a huge boost too. 

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

But stuff really needs to live a little longer to make debuffs/buffs/control more worthwhile at upper levels.

More HP doesn't make debuff/buff/control any more worthwhile from my view.  For example, instead of defeating a boss in 3 hits it takes 5 due to higher HP just means it will take me little longer to finish a mission solo.  I still won't find buff/debuff/control worthwhile - just a nice to have, same as any other AT. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by ShardWarrior

[Bossk_Hogg]

34 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If additional difficulty also gave more reward (Merits possibly?) that would be a huge boost too. 

Sounds reasonable. I'd also replace all bosses with elites, and all named final mission bosses with AV's.

[Doc_Scorpion]

10 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Sounds reasonable. I'd also replace all bosses with elites, and all named final mission bosses with AV's.

*All*?  /jranger unless applied with care - otherwise folks could potentially be running into AV's in missions as far down as single digit levels, and certainly in their teens. 

Frostie, for example, is hard enough as it is.  I don't even want to face him as an AV at level 9!

[Bossk_Hogg]

8 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

*All*?  /jranger unless applied with care - otherwise folks could potentially be running into AV's in missions as far down as single digit levels, and certainly in their teens. 

Frostie, for example, is hard enough as it is.  I don't even want to face him as an AV at level 9!

This would be part of my enhanced "epic difficulty" slider. Sorry, should have clarified.

[Bugmaster]

On 10/24/2019 at 1:17 PM, ShardWarrior said:

More HP doesn't make debuff/buff/control any more worthwhile from my view.  For example, instead of defeating a boss in 3 hits it takes 5 due to higher HP just means it will take me little longer to finish a mission solo.  I still won't find buff/debuff/control worthwhile - just a nice to have, same as any other AT. 

I agree, partially. I think higher HP will make some debuffs more valuable, e.g. -Regen, -Defence, and -Resist. However, it won't make hard control more valuable. I do think that improving Controllers specifically, to the point where they can Hold bosses and AVs, would make them quite useful -- because, I gotta be honest, right now Controllers basically feel like Dominators-lite.

[Bugmaster]

On 10/24/2019 at 10:30 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

Yeah, the Incarnate Nukes are pretty redonk. 

Haha yeah, I agree; but they really do make you feel like you've transcended your mortal limitations to become an ION GOD !!11!! Instead of reducing damage, I'd prefer to increase the cooldown.

[Galaxy Brain]

56 minutes ago, Bugmaster said:

Haha yeah, I agree; but they really do make you feel like you've transcended your mortal limitations to become an ION GOD !!11!! Instead of reducing damage, I'd prefer to increase the cooldown.

Or make it more engaging / locked as a super move. Get X kills or use Y powers to recharge the attack.

 

But that's a while another thread. 

 

I really dig expanding on containment and a controller stacking controls up. Making so seperate primary powers give you +mag or weaken enemy mez resist would be gucci.

[Haijinx]

I like the idea of peppering EBs in with normal content .. say at level 35+

 

[Itikar]

18 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I like the idea of peppering EBs in with normal content .. say at level 35+

 

Sometimes I wonder whether we play the same game. O_o

 

Granted I mostly play on redside, but over level 35 I struggled to find an arc that did not have an EB, almost to the point of frustration. Fortunately I had a build that allowed me to defeat most EBs even without set IOs, but other folks from my SG have been quite frustrated with this. Maybe blueside needs a little more of this, even though I find this hard to believe. In my personal experience one of the first arcs I played on blue, on my level 20 defender fresh from Praetoria, set her against a rather strong EB that she barely defeated by firing all her inspirations and relying on a good dose of luck.

 

So, yeah, buffing some bosses is not necessarily bad, by all means, but please exercise caution in changing enemies. What is too easy for a character, or a player for that matter, might be very hard or even impossible for another.

 

And a similar concern might be addressed to the general proposal to buff enemies in order to fix some classes, such as controllers in this case, that need buffing. Not that the ideas are necessarily bad by themselves, they just seem to me a little off the mark.

 

Now about buffing controllers specifically I like this proposal:

On 10/24/2019 at 8:35 PM, Erydanus said:

There were 2 pretty big nerfs that lowered controllers role in the meta in the classic game and I think both of them could be reverted and would just bring them closer inline to other ATs.

 

1. revert the change where all controller AoE holds became half duration and double cooldown (and was the 60% base accuracy instead of 75% base accuracy added in that too? Maybe.) AoE holds aren't a staple of play and it's not going to create the "punching statues" meta but it would increase build choice and help holding tougher foes when that was desired.

 

2. revert the change where all controller epic pool damage was halved, because the devs "forgot" they got containment on them. It's not going to be huge but it would be nice supplemental damage at higher levels. 

I think it pretty much addresses the points raised in the first post and what I have seen in my experience playing. If point one is deemed too unbalanced for the whole game, it could be restricted only to controllers, and leaving AoE holds for dominators as they are now, so that the two archetypes would be more differentiated in the end.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Itikar

[Bugmaster]

On 10/27/2019 at 9:59 AM, Itikar said:

revert the change where all controller epic pool damage was halved, because the devs "forgot" they got containment on them.

It's not a bad idea in terms of game balance and mechanics. However, IMO it's a step in the wrong direction. I want to play a Controller because I can effectively control the battlefield; not just because I have a trick up my sleeve that lets me output a bit more damage so I can be a bit more competitive with dedicated DPS ATs.

[Shadowsleuth]

 

Containment should be expanded to include other status effects such as confuse & fear.

[golstat2003]

On 10/23/2019 at 4:15 PM, biostem said:

One thing that I thought should have been implemented from day 1 is to have a sliding scale of debuffing effects from "unaffected" to "completely locked-down".  Right now, an enemy is either held or they operate at 100% effectiveness, (barring any secondary effects a mez power might impart that are secondary to its actual hold effect).  What if, for instance, a hold would apply a slow, then a recharge debuff, then a tohit debuff, then a damage resist/defense debuff, and so on, culminating in the total lock-down, once enough mag is reached? 

Great, but this would only be useful on AVs. Everything else in the game dies so fast you’d never see this happen on mob types below an EB. And for most of the game you aren’t fighting EBs.

Edited October 31, 2019 by golstat2003

[Lost Ninja]

My dream... 😉

 

Player Controller with the power that cause the containment: 2.2x damage. So reusing a Hold on an already held mob would do slightly over double damage.

Non-Containment powers by same player: 2.0x damage. Mezzed targets take 2x damage from damaging attacks from the player.

Pet/Epic/Patron power by same player: 1.75x damage. 

Team mates/non-player owned pets: 1.5x damage. (With chance of a single mez effect breaking based on rank of enemy,) Increase damage on mobs for the whole team.