Global Knockback->Knockdown IO for Travel Powers/Rest

[Steampunkette]

37 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So, its ok to scatter enemies everywhere to mess with other people's abilities?

Rather than turn every single fight into another cookie cutter "Tank rounds them up, everyone AoEs, next group"?

 

I much prefer the scatter. Even when I'm -playing- the tank or the person with patches and targeted aura debuffs.

 

I'd rather have scatter than a rousing game of chartered accountancy where everyone ticks off their DPS Boxes at the appropriate times to rubber stamp a given group before moving on to the next form. FIGHT. Fight. I meant to say fight.

 

I want fights where the enemies run around and take up different positions to fight. I want fights where enemies aren't trapped in one place in a permanent knockdown loop 'cause someone dropped Bonfire with a KD enhancement. I want fights that aren't "Herd it up, knock it down, move on"

 

Give me danger, excitement, frustration, delight! Give me groups scattered to the four winds! Give me the Rad's anchor bouncing into a distant group and bringing his now angry friends to the fight. Give me the scrapper panic-taunting to keep the Defender from dying before the Blaster throws another AoE on the additional group to send them ass over teakettle before the Dominator locks down the adds.

 

Anything but another 8-man steamrolling team where the only conversation is about how other people don't know how to play the game right.

 

When I'm not playing my Brute (Who uses extensive KM KB for moar fun) I typically run with a 4-man team of a Scrapper, two Widows, and a Sentinel. No taunts. No aggro management. We just brain and water blast enemies while one Scrapper shield-charges and one Widow sneaky-stabs the boss. It's -delightful- chaos! Particularly against Carnies.

 

But when I decide to join a random group, or mix things up and do a TF, I haaaaaaaaaate the "No KB!" calls or the "Why aren't you using the KD IO?" tells. 

 

How about "For Options" we add a Universal Damage IO set with a Proc IO that has a 50% chance to proc a mag 10 KB? S'only fair. Then I can complain when the Fire Blaster isn't knocking enemies through the air with ever Fireball. "Why aren't you using the KB IO?" tells would at least be fun turnabout.

[Steampunkette]

3 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

My earliest and fondest memory of coh is chasing a mob while shooting them (before travel power suppression) it was my omfg "i love this game moment". and yes the steamroll does get tedious at times but what about when you are trying to beat a TF within a certain time frame? remember chasing all those little clockwork in a synapse TF? anyway we arent forcing anyone to remove the KB if they like it. we only want options. And at the end of the day isnt that one of the things that makes coh so wonderful? all the options.

You've got options.

 

They come at a meager cost. But you've got options.

 

And while you, personally, aren't calling for KB to just get removed from the game it's something that's been floated more than a few times. At least once or twice on -these- boards that I know of, much less the Official Forums.

 

Every "We should have a global KD IO!" and "What about a KD Toggle?" will just result in more basis for people to try and force me to kill my KB for their enjoyment.

 

I like my KB. If you don't like it that's fine, but as soon as a new "Easier" KD option comes along the onus on me for using KB instead of KD becomes bigger. "You don't even have to mess up a set bonus, now! Just throw it in Rest! Why are you being so selfish?!"

 

I hate that. Just let me play the game without helping people demand I play it their way.

[HelenCarnate]

How about a new (purple maybe?) kb set? The 6th set bonus could be to have all kb changed to kd.  That would be a bit more balanced than only a single slot needed. 

 

Not against the idea of only needing one slot but I imagine this would be more acceptable to the purists.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

I hate that. Just let me play the game without helping people demand I play it their way.

Which in turn means you force them to play your way tho, with you knocking enemies however you decide. Actively scattering mobs just to be difficult is also annoying when many of the abilities rely on that not happening... at least if you don't have control over it (from the other player's perspective).

 

I think the crux of the "problem" is that while awesome, Knockback is not in a controlled state outside specific powers and is very easy to "misuse":

 

 

Experienced player using force bolt to ram the boss into a corner and keep them pinned? Awesome and great use of KB, but can be a bit boring as each fight becomes "let me scope out the best geometry to abuse".

 

New player using force bolt and flinging the boss everywhere into other mobs and causing a ton of chaos? Can be fun, but can also quickly be frustrating.

 

 

Experienced player using an AoE knockback power while hovering above the fight at a certain angle to try and control the RNG that the attacks sends enemies at? Again, great usage but requires a bunch of finesse and time that other effects don't need (or if you convert to KD....).

 

New player using AoE knockbacks as fast as they come up with no regard to enemy placement? Fun! But, then you spread out enemies away from melee auras needed for survival or from control patches, other AoEs, etc, and make the combat more dangerous.

 

 

I would love if KB were awesome to use the way its sort of intended. Throw that M80 grenade into a mob, and see people go flying everywhere, through walls, bounce off each other, and leave only the stronger enemies standing. Unfortunately, knockback in CoH is not that. KB is not usually a *bonus* since it objectively slows down combat in most scenarios when it comes to grinding up a bunch of mobs. The M80 grenade that bounced people off walls doesnt get bonus damage for the impact of the enemy being flung, so Fireball is infinitely better for just having more DoT to kill enemies faster without scattering them out of the way. Enemy AI also heavily favors them just dog-piling you anyways, so even if you fling enemies around they will get up and rush you again which reinforces the behavior. Not to mention that the availability of Knockdown as a direct "competitor" to Knockback is tough to beat. 

 

So, what can we do to keep things superheroic and fun? As I mentioned prior, giving Knockback more oomph to make it that show stopping, room clearing effect that it should be is one. But I think looking into the KB powers that exist needs to be done as well when it comes to the % Chance and Mag of knocks. 

 

The enemy AI could be more varied as well, with more behaving like Praetorian Clockwork where they favor spreading out anyways instead of just rushing you, which reinforces the herding behavior. Though the prevalence of taunt auras and control effects also enforce this... on top of the spawns of enemies naturally being grouped up too.

 

In short, its sort of the nature of the game to where KB is usually detrimental, and I believe if that is the case it should be buffed to be the true benefit it should be.

 

 

[Call Me Awesome]

Unrestrained KB is a detriment to almost all teams and certainly slows things down.  The player who scatters mobs all over the room is directly impacting the ability of the team to kill said mobs quickly.  A player who makes a habit of that will find few teams willing to put up with it.  That's just the facts of life in this game and it isn't going to change.  Your teammates don't like having to deal with scattered mobs rendering their AOE powers ineffective and they'll either leave the team or kick you from the team.  I'm sorry if you don't like that, but that's the reality of the game.

 

All the arguments for or against KB are irrelevant, most of your teammates won't like it and will respond by first asking you to cease the random KB, then they'll leave for a more fun experience with different teammates.  True, they can't force you to control your KB but you likewise can't force them to team with you either.

[Crysta Clear]

14 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So, its ok to scatter enemies everywhere to mess with other people's abilities?

Absolutely. Especially if it forces those people to learn how to play in a more mobile way.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, Crysta Clear said:

Absolutely. Especially if it forces those people to learn how to play in a more mobile way.

So then it's not ok for them in turn to ask you to follow their plan and instead be forced into abiding by your actions.

[Crysta Clear]

They can leave the team if they hate it so much. And I'll be glad to see them go 🙂

[Galaxy Brain]

Or alternatively boot you.

 

I hate how this causes division

[boggo2300]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Or alternatively boot you.

 

I hate how this causes division

we could outlaw melee toons and problem solved

 

(this is a joke, and it really saddens me I have to say this for clarity)

[Crysta Clear]

Or that! But I'll start my own team in LFG then. And probably ignore the leader's global.

[golstat2003]

I think the better goal is to improve knockback overall so that it's reliable and has secondary effects like stuns, like others have said.

I personally don't mind if folks KB on a team. It gives the game a more comic book feel.

 

With that said I would not be against a KB --> KD global IO. As long as it needs to be slotted in a power that does KB.

[Arcanum]

16 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I think the better goal is to improve knockback overall so that it's reliable and has secondary effects like stuns, like others have said.

I personally don't mind if folks KB on a team. It gives the game a more comic book feel.

 

With that said I would not be against a KB --> KD global IO. As long as it needs to be slotted in a power that does KB.

As someone who plays both Storm Characters and an Energy Blaster - I would love to see some changes made to KB that make it an actual in-game mechanic; as opposed to an instant "slot everything for KD IOs to make it viable". 

Or the immediate reaction upon seeing a KB powered character "If you don't have KD IOs, we're kicking you". *sighs*

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, boggo2300 said:

we could outlaw melee toons and problem solved

 

(this is a joke, and it really saddens me I have to say this for clarity)

It's not just melee characters that are effected tho. You think characters with placed effects like if enemies are taken out of said effects?

 

As for @GM Arcanum I agree 100%!!! KB as it stands is not where it should be for a superhero game. Launching dudes should feel good, and be effective in combat rather than being questionable. 

[boggo2300]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It's not just melee characters that are effected tho. You think characters with placed effects like if enemies are taken out of said effects?

 

As for @GM Arcanum I agree 100%!!! KB as it stands is not where it should be for a superhero game. Launching dudes should feel good, and be effective in combat rather than being questionable. 

(this is a joke, and it really saddens me I have to say this for clarity)

[Galaxy Brain]

Oh I know it was a joke, but still it is pervasive that it is only an issue for melee characters.

[Myrmidon]

While I personally don’t care for Knockback, I will adapt if a member of my team uses it. Sometimes it may be annoying, however when I have the star, it’s not a “kick player” offense.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

this kinda reminds me of the old speed boost issue, most people loved SB a few didnt so they added an OPTION to make everyone happy. more options please

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

As has been brought up before the ultimate meta reality would be people would put pressure on those who do not want to go KD over KB and lead to harassment and black listing, and the creation of such an IO would be seen as tactic permission from the HC devs to behave as such.

 

Its not an equal exchange. KD is seen as stronger from the META group, thus from the meta perspective this would be straight massive power creep. Nor do other sets inherent have a universal reliablity. fir dots for example actually rarely get to be of any meaningful % increase to DPS unless fighting HP punching bags that will last long enough for the dots to consistently run their course many times. Back on live there was a post crunching the numbers and the only time a fires dot really really gives a meaningful DPS bonus is against GMs and then only with smaller teams that cant burn it down rapidly.

 

Thus it is a myth that other sets have some big special perk over KB and its oft complained unreliability as a major reason to offer an alternative. Here is your alternative, Dont take powers with KB, Dont use sets with KB. If others using KB bothers you play solo or in static groups like a good little control freak that cant handle pugs being pugs.

 

What is being asked for here is short sighted as always in this topic. I feel the better answer would be to increase the base dmg of all KB powers to the point that those who favor META DPS will be hard pressed to resist the lure of powerful energy blasting that requires skill to use in an optimal manner. People are trying to use the bad play of players lacking skill and experience with a power set to justify this. That would be like wanting tanks give more resistance because they played with a tanker that didnt slot anything in their defensive power set, and never used a taunt power.

 

Mobs being knocked into game objects is also not a reason, that is a bug issue, one that needs to be addressed directly rather then altering powers to reduce the chance of it happening.

 

It would also undeniably make powers that create knock back auras insanely powerful as if the mob is staying in that area rather then being pushed out of it, it results in a perma KD bouncing lock down. something of incredible power that anyone with a set with psi tornado and the recahrge to spam it is familiar with the very potent nature of. If hurricane trapped people in it in a perpetual state of dribbling, then people would go from finding tsoo sorcerers and the like annoying to fearing them like no other and we all know everyone would endlessly complain about such. Giving something like this only to the players and not the mobs would be an extreme imbalance of the playing field PVE wise and likely be detrimental to many in pvp as well though I certainly cant say much as I avoid pvp.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

3 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

As has been brought up before the ultimate meta reality would be people would put pressure on those who do not want to go KD over KB and lead to harassment and black listing, and the creation of such an IO would be seen as tactic permission from the HC devs to behave as such.

 

Its not an equal exchange. KD is seen as stronger from the META group, thus from the meta perspective this would be straight massive power creep. Nor do other sets inherent have a universal reliablity. fir dots for example actually rarely get to be of any meaningful % increase to DPS unless fighting HP punching bags that will last long enough for the dots to consistently run their course many times. Back on live there was a post crunching the numbers and the only time a fires dot really really gives a meaningful DPS bonus is against GMs and then only with smaller teams that cant burn it down rapidly.

 

Thus it is a myth that other sets have some big special perk over KB and its oft complained unreliability as a major reason to offer an alternative. Here is your alternative, Dont take powers with KB, Dont use sets with KB. If others using KB bothers you play solo or in static groups like a good little control freak that cant handle pugs being pugs.

 

What is being asked for here is short sighted as always in this topic. I feel the better answer would be to increase the base dmg of all KB powers to the point that those who favor META DPS will be hard pressed to resist the lure of powerful energy blasting that requires skill to use in an optimal manner. People are trying to use the bad play of players lacking skill and experience with a power set to justify this. That would be like wanting tanks give more resistance because they played with a tanker that didnt slot anything in their defensive power set, and never used a taunt power.

 

Mobs being knocked into game objects is also not a reason, that is a bug issue, one that needs to be addressed directly rather then altering powers to reduce the chance of it happening.

 

It would also undeniably make powers that create knock back auras insanely powerful as if the mob is staying in that area rather then being pushed out of it, it results in a perma KD bouncing lock down. something of incredible power that anyone with a set with psi tornado and the recahrge to spam it is familiar with the very potent nature of. If hurricane trapped people in it in a perpetual state of dribbling, then people would go from finding tsoo sorcerers and the like annoying to fearing them like no other and we all know everyone would endlessly complain about such. Giving something like this only to the players and not the mobs would be an extreme imbalance of the playing field PVE wise and likely be detrimental to many in pvp as well though I certainly cant say much as I avoid pvp.

1. the alleged blacklisting/harrassment occurs already to those who do not use KB effectively rendering this point moot

2. KB may be seen as stronger but in fact its a nerf as its less CC than KB. cant argue with facts well u can but....

3. Whether other sets secondaries are better or worse than KB is not the subject of this post its a FACT that KB is the only secondary thats unreliable.

4 Players who can position themselves so that KB is effective in groups would not be affected by this proposed change as nobody on team would complain. Also tanks have taunt built into all their attacks so not sure i follow what example you are trying to make.

5. while your point here is technically correct in the long run what is the easier fix?

6. Most powers that have KB auras also have repel baked in which pushes foes back. repel is a separate function than KB and tornado has a fear effect to keep perpetual dribbling from occurring and also every single AT has many many ways to prevent KB from happening from IO's to set bonus to archetype powers to power pool powers (yes there's a power pool power that prevents knockback)

 

In the end the only players this proposed change would effect are those who do not know how to use KB effectively. Lets not force them to play OUR way lets give them an option to play KB classes with the same ease as the other AT's

[Steampunkette]

19 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Or alternatively boot you.

 

I hate how this causes division

It causes division because there are people who like to play the game, and people who like to game the game.

 

The latter group wants everything to be fast, simple, and clean. They're the people who want to maximize their time to reward ratio. 

 

They play the game to win the meta.

 

And that's fine there's always going to be those people. There's nothing wrong with wanting to win the game.

 

But the other group just wants to play. How long it takes is not as important as the zany fun that happens during that time.

 

No matter what changes happen to knock back, like increasing its damage or adding stuns or something else, the actual knocking back is still going to be a problem for the second group of players.

 

There is no way to fix it. There is no way to reconcile it. If I'm on a team with a group of people who want to game the game they will be upset with knock-back. Unless I manage to make it perfectly perfect so that it doesn't affect any patches or debuffs or area of effects for anybody else.

 

Because whether it's pushing one person back or three people back someone's going to be pissed when their inferno doesn't hit the whole group.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Steampunkette

[MunkiLord]

On 12/24/2019 at 8:10 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

So, its ok to scatter enemies everywhere to mess with other people's abilities?

Yes

[MunkiLord]

21 hours ago, GM Arcanum said:

Or the immediate reaction upon seeing a KB powered character "If you don't have KD IOs, we're kicking you". *sighs*

I've solved this problem by one starring anybody that shows an attitude like that and then immediately quitting any team in which they are on,. It annoyed one task force leader when I quit right after we started when I first saw the player I had one starred, but oh well. Or if I invite them to my team before realizing it, immediately kicking them. I only use stars for control freak players like that, so I always know what it means. But this also isn't something I run across often, I think maybe four people have one star?

[Saiyajinzoningen]

so a reverse blacklist then?

[boggo2300]

35 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

so a reverse blacklist then?

ummm no it's actually a text book blacklist