blasters vs corr damage

[cparks70402]

i did a small test to see which one does more damage. i made a lvl 1 fire corr and fire blaster. i only attacked lvl 1 minions and killed 10 on each char. i added up the total damage each one did. the corr and blaster where both using fire blast and only that power. both where hitting for 8 damage on the 1st attack. the blaster was hitting for 9 damage on the 2nd attack. the corr seemed to proc the fire dot more often than the blaster and scourge was hitting for 16 damage. this test was also with no buffs from outside sources, or reds, only using the base damage of the attack.

 

the blasters total damage on 10 different lvl 1 minions was 229 damage.

the corr total damage done on 10 different lvl 1 minions was 322 damage.

 

so overall corr do quite a bit more damage than blasters. this doesnt account for buffs or debuffs that each class can give themselves. just the base of the attacks.

 

[merrypessimist]

 Under level 20 stats are boosted to make not-blasters suck less.  Repeat the test at level 20 with non-resistant mobs and you'll see significantly different results.   

[Apparition]

[cparks70402]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 11:36 PM, merrypessimist said:

 Under level 20 stats are boosted to make not-blasters suck less.  Repeat the test at level 20 with non-resistant mobs and you'll see significantly different results.   

the base damage of blasters is more, but its the scourge proc that literally doubles the damage of the attack. this doesnt account for corr being able to buff their damage or debuff their target.

 

so the results are still the same, corr do more damage.

[Outrider_01]

Your test is a bit flawed.

 

Blasters self buff through defiance, each attack does a small +dmg bonus that lasts like 6? seconds, enough to chain at minimum 3-4 attacks in that time dependent on recharge or the number of attacks used, by level 6 it would leap ahead with a few attacks.  Blasters are high burst alpha and sustained damage.  No other has damage attacks on both sides.  Defiance boosts straight damage.

 

Corrupters buff through their secondary, which they concentrate on as its a reverse defender.  Scourge isn't dependable as Defiance, Scourge is random crit at 50%, sorta like a scrapper.  And the double damage  shouldn't be considered, its just a flashy orange number and a double crit for 10 damage x 2 = 20 is redundant if the baddie is at 9.  It helps, but shouldn't  be counted on.

[Bill Z Bubba]

AGAIN:

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage

 

 

Also:

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Scourge

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Defiance

[Luminara]

Your test was poorly conceived and nightmarishly flawed, took significantly longer than simply doing the math, began from an erroneous premise which you desperately wish were true and conducted your test to justify your conviction (not the appropriate scientific methodology), and arrived at an erroneous conclusion.

 

In other words, you're wrong.

 

Do the math before you consider making another post.

[siolfir]

To be fair, a Corruptor can do more damage than a Blaster. For one attack, that Scourges.

 

Look, math:

0.75 * (1.95) = 1.4625

0.75 * (1.95) * (2) = 2.9250 (assuming Scourge)

1.125 * (1.95) = 2.19375

 

They won't do more damage over time except in rare circumstances, such as when the enemy hit points are low for an extended period (huge sack of hp mobs), or the Blaster is grossly incompetent, stupid, and/or fails to understand what an attack chain is.

That doesn't excuse the sheer ignorance contained in the OP, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by siolfir
stupid forum posted early when I didn't even try to...?

[Corruption]

9 hours ago, cparks70402 said:

the blasters total damage on 10 different lvl 1 minions was 229 damage.

the corr total damage done on 10 different lvl 1 minions was 322 damage.

 

so overall corr do quite a bit more damage than blasters. this doesnt account for buffs or debuffs that each class can give themselves. just the base of the attacks.

 

No, just like you were told in the last thread, Corrs do not do more damage than Blasters. You don't seem to understand how probability works and fail to understand the fact that Corrs need to spend time casting debuffs, while Blasters are attacking the entire time.

 

I just did pylon runs on my Fire/Fire Blaster and Fire/Cold Corr, guess which was faster? Below are best case scenario damage numbers for the Corr because of Scourge and debuffs, versus regular Blaster damage.

 

If you were arguing in good faith, I might be willing to calculate the probability distribution of Scourge for this Pylon run, but I'm not going to waste my time on that.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Corruption

[GM Miss]

Hey guys! Just a reminder to be kind with your responses. 

 

I love all the numbers and fact checking here - but lets not call names.

 

Ty! ❤️

[cparks70402]

On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 8:58 AM, Corruption said:

No, just like you were told in the last thread, Corrs do not do more damage than Blasters. You don't seem to understand how probability works and fail to understand the fact that Corrs need to spend time casting debuffs, while Blasters are attacking the entire time.

 

I just did pylon runs on my Fire/Fire Blaster and Fire/Cold Corr, guess which was faster? Below are best case scenario damage numbers for the Corr because of Scourge and debuffs, versus regular Blaster damage.

 

If you were arguing in good faith, I might be willing to calculate the probability distribution of Scourge for this Pylon run, but I'm not going to waste my time on that.

 

 

im not understanding what your showing me. corr blasing bolt did 734 damage. the blasters didnt hit for that much. correct me if im wrong but your blaster only used blasing bolt, fire sword and hot feet oh and i think i saw blase once.

[cparks70402]

On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 5:58 AM, Luminara said:

Your test was poorly conceived and nightmarishly flawed, took significantly longer than simply doing the math, began from an erroneous premise which you desperately wish were true and conducted your test to justify your conviction (not the appropriate scientific methodology), and arrived at an erroneous conclusion.

 

In other words, you're wrong.

 

Do the math before you consider making another post.

i think youre the only person who doesnt use any kind of facts to prove i was wrong. in your words im wrong for the sake of being wrong. grow up.

[cparks70402]

On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 4:12 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

AGAIN:

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage

 

 

Also:

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Scourge

 

https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Defiance

ok this chart doesnt prove anything except that a malee attack used by a blaster does more damage than a brute? im guessing the higher the number the more damage output. so according to the chart bright and dark nova forms do more ranged damage than blasters, and scrappers do the same amount of damage as blasters. also no where on the chart does it account for each classes buffs or debuffs.

[Outrider_01]

Bud, your test is flawed period.  At level 1, you hit what? 10 minions?  Blasters do more damage per hit un like corrupters, Cors would excel on an EB/AV/Bosses that are tougher when Scourge kicks in and the HP pool is massive.  Or rain of fire, those ticks add up after you fire ball a minion group.  And debuffs/buffs technical benefit both AT unless solo.  Single attacks on level 1s mean nothing.

[DSorrow]

4 hours ago, cparks70402 said:

i think youre the only person who doesnt use any kind of facts to prove i was wrong. in your words im wrong for the sake of being wrong. grow up.

No need to get hostile, buddy. Your test is flawed and doesn't show anything that's applicable or relevant in the 50+ game. If you want to compare "better damage", the best way to do so is to measure consistent DPS against targets such as Rikti Pylons. This is the easiest way to account for inherent powers, procs, debuffs and such, none of which are properly represented in your test.

 

If you want to compare pure numbers, a Blaster with scalar 1.125 will do more damage than a Corruptor at 0.75 even with Scourge, as on average Scourge gives you 30% more damage [source] (0.75 * 1.3 = 0.975 < 1.125), but in reality this is even less as either much of the double damage ends up being overkill or the enemy is never alive with very little HP left so your overall proc rate is actually quite low. So, Scourge doesn't "literally double the damage of your attack", unless you mean it does that less than 30% of the time, and even then it doesn't always functionally do anything. 

 

Additionally, to get as close to an apples to apples comparison here, you'd have to account for Blaster's Defiance. Finally, if you factor in debuffs, you have to take into account that they consume a significant amount of time the Blaster gets to spend on attacks (let's say, 10-20% of your overall animation time), but at the same time the Blaster has access to BU which provides a considerable increase in overall damage. 

 

4 hours ago, cparks70402 said:

so according to the chart bright and dark nova forms do more ranged damage than blasters, and scrappers do the same amount of damage as blasters.

Yes, if they all had access to the same attacks. This isn't really the case when you compare Blasters and Nova Form or Scrappers and Blasters, so it's another variable you have to account for in a test. However, for a Blasters vs. Corruptors comparison this isn't really an issue so the chart shows that Blasters do more damage.

 

In summary, your test is just far too simplified to be representative of an actual in-game scenario at level 50. Looking at the behind the scenes variables such as the damage scales, some common sense and actual play-testing all support a case which is opposite to what you claim. 

[Lines]

I'm not entirely sure I understand the point that OP is trying to make. It feels like you're making a deliberate, biased effort to prove that Corrs outdamage Blasters. If true, this is a very significant suggestion. It would mean not only that the community's calculations are incorrect but also that the game has been poorly designed and that Corruptors would be in need of a nerf. Thankfully, that isn't the case.

 

The contrary should be evident in the damage scalars, and if that isn't enough then spend some time trying both ATs using only their identical primary powers and you'll feel the difference.

 

CoH has a LOT of modifiers going on throughout the game. It's very hard to find two scenarios where the modifers are consistent with each other. This is why folks use Rikti Pylons to crunch numbers as a standard, accepted experiment - it's as close to a controlled environment as the game has to offer. It doesn't really work to introduce a new non-standard experiment to prove your point - you need to prove it against the accepted standard.

 

Folks on these boards eat numbers for breakfast. They know what they're talking about.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Lines

[Outrider_01]

Pretty much what Dsorrow says, very well put.  I lack the ability to be expressive enough to sound like I know what I am saying.  I just know from experience.

 

Anyway csparks you bring up brute melee vs blaster.  That is base scale damage of the attack, it shows you don't know the mechanics well.  It doesn't take into self damage buff, blaster will face punch that freakshow boss harder for one hit but a brute will be hyped up with rage from minion attacks before he flattens the small fry and punches the same boss's head off; but this is assuming 2 attacks with one being AoE (poor example with 2 attacks, but a hyped up brute is real fun). That .75 can equal to a blaster after rage.

 

Someone can correct me in the last paragraph if I am wrong, full mechanics combined with math makes my head hurt.

 

Not trying to insult you, but Scourge benifits greatly on massive meatbag HP more then minion clobbering.  Read the scoure page link above, gives you a better undertanding; Souge is random, works under 50% and RNG chance increases the lower the hp it gives, where as Defiance hits right out the box.  Double random damage isn't the same as bonused damage attacks.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Outrider_01

[EmmySky]

On 12/15/2019 at 1:20 AM, cparks70402 said:

i did a small test to see which one does more damage. i made a lvl 1 fire corr and fire blaster. i only attacked lvl 1 minions and killed 10 on each char. i added up the total damage each one did. the corr and blaster where both using fire blast and only that power. both where hitting for 8 damage on the 1st attack. the blaster was hitting for 9 damage on the 2nd attack. the corr seemed to proc the fire dot more often than the blaster and scourge was hitting for 16 damage. this test was also with no buffs from outside sources, or reds, only using the base damage of the attack.

 

the blasters total damage on 10 different lvl 1 minions was 229 damage.

the corr total damage done on 10 different lvl 1 minions was 322 damage.

 

so overall corr do quite a bit more damage than blasters. this doesnt account for buffs or debuffs that each class can give themselves. just the base of the attacks.

 

BASE damage does not take buffs into account.  Scourge is a buff.  You keep saying (in this thread and the last) that corruptors do more base damage than blasters but you keep using buffs to confirm that.  

 

At very low levels I can get my defenders to out damage my blasters, due to buffs the game has rolled into low characters (like merrypessimist said).  

 

If you manage to run a test and actually remove all buffs (scourge and defiance included) and actually get down to the BASE damage, you might have a starting point.

 

tl;dr BASE you keep using that word, I dont think it means what you think it means.

[Haijinx]

This is a funny thread.

 

Blasters out damage everyone, its not even close. They are in a better place now than they have been in years.

 

However Corruptors allow the team to do much better.  So really they often are far more valuable, and a lot of combos end up adding more damage overall than the Blaster does. 

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, cparks70402 said:

i think youre the only person who doesnt use any kind of facts to prove i was wrong. in your words im wrong for the sake of being wrong. grow up.

 

Cupcake, everything I said was factual.  You began with a faulty premise.  You created and conducted a test based on that premise, a test which was designed to ignore every variable which didn't fit your predetermined conclusion, and which betrays your utter and abysmal lack of attention to basic game mechanics.  You made every possible mistake in your approach to testing and proved only that you understand absolutely nothing.

 

Furthermore, others have already spoon-fed you all of the necessary information, which you (unsurprisingly) either ignore or simply cannot comprehend.  Everything you need to understand why your corruptor simply cannot be a "better" blaster has been practically nailed to your eyeballs.  But since you asked so nicely, I'll add my numerical breakdown to the already extensive pile.

 

There are several variables assigned to attacks.  The archetype assigns a variable.  Whether the attack is melee or ranged is a variable.  The target's resistance is a variable.  We're going to concentrate on a few specific variables, though.

 

Your corruptor has a 0.75 multiplier for both melee and ranged damage.  This means every attack, regardless of position, deals 75% of the base value of that attack.

 

A blaster has a 1.00 multiplier for melee attacks and 1.125 multiplier for ranged attacks.  Thus, a blaster will deal 100% of a melee attack's base value, and 112.5% of a ranged attack's base value.

 

Ignoring all other factors, a blaster's default ranged damage output is 150% that of a corruptor's.  0.75 * 1.5 = 0.1125.  There are exceptions, things like pseudo-pets and attacks which have been specifically redesigned for specific ATs, but none of particular relevance, and I am trying to keep this simple.

 

Both archetypes have a 500% damage cap.  The unslotted, unbuffed attack is counted as 100%, meaning both are capped at +400%.  +damage includes all sources.  Inspirations, enhancements, Assault, Build Up, Aim, Fulcrum Shift, it's all the same as far as the engine is concerned.  You can never buff your corruptor to a higher damage cap than the blaster can achieve, because the game has limitations which prevent that.

 

Another variable is the value of damage buffs themselves.  Corruptors use 0.085 for melee damage buffs and 0.100 for ranged damage buffs.  Blasters, however, use a 0.125 modifier for both.  What does that mean?  It means the strength of your damage buffs is always less than the strength of a blaster's damage buffs.

 

In other words, not only does the blaster deal more damage unbuffed, it also buffs damage better than your corruptor.

 

But you have Scourge, right?  Double damage crits!  Obviously, that has to make corruptors "better"!

 

Nope.  Scourge doesn't kick in until the target's hit points drop below 50%, and it's not guaranteed, it's a 2.5% chance for very 1% of a target's hit points below 50%.  For normal day-to-day combat, plowing your way through minions and lieutenants, Scourge contributes practically nothing.  Scourge triggering on minions is irrelevant, because unless you're deliberately holding back, or hopelessly inept, the attack which Scourged was extremely likely to have defeated the minion eithout Scourge.  On lieutenants, it has slightly more value, but concurrently, by the time you could reasonably begin triggering Scourge, the blaster will have already defeated the same target and moved on.

 

Until and unless you're facing targets with extremely large hit point totals, Scourge accounts for very little of your actual combat damage.  Even for ordinary bosses, blasters, presuming they survive the alpha and retaliatory strikes, tend to deal more damage in a shorter period of time than corruptors, because corruptors spend time buffing and/or debuffing and dealing less damage until Scourge activates, whereas blasters pop Build Up and/or Aim and get down to the matter at hand.  It isn't until you're fighting Elite Bosses and above that a Scourge-friendly environment exists.

 

And I have bad news for you, Kitten.  Even on EBs, GMs and AVs, you're not making blasters weep with envy.  Yes, when it triggers, you're (finally) dealing more damage than the blaster... but for the first half of the fight, you're not, and you're not even getting reliable Scourges for most of the second half of the fight, not until the target's hit points drop low enough (remember that scaling 2.5% chance? this is where it becomes relevant).  There is a formula you can use to figure out exactly how much damage Scourge contributes, but the simplest way to state it is to say you're seeing about a 30% improvement in damage output over time, and even then, it's based on the presumption that you'll forego buffing and/or debuffing and focus exclusively on attacking, and presuming you're actually fighting EBs and above, of course.  Which would correspondingly presume you're teamed frequently, or soloing with the difficulty scale maxed.

 

Of course, if you're teaming and refusing to buff or debuff because you're BETAR TAHN BALSTARS, well, you're going to be soloing a lot, and if you're not buffing or debuffing solo, you're not going to be soloing at +4/+8.  Either way you look at it, you're losing damage output and falling farther behind the blaster.

 

And, as much as you want to believe that Scourge, coupled with your magnificent grasp of the game's mechanics, capped damage and flawless play, will make your corruptor the blaster-beater, it won't.  That's simply not how math works.

 

Note that I don't mean that's not how math works in this game, or for this particular example, or in a specific case.  I mean that's not how math ever works, at any time, anywhere.  Sorry, Princess, but in a clash between your ego and the fundamental concepts of the universe, you lose.

 

Next time, do the damn math.

[Omega-202]

This thread should be closed.  The OP posted the same thing back on December 4 under a different (but similar) forum handle.  They are not going to accept any facts or arguments.  They are either trolling or not intelligent enough to understand what is going on.  

[The_Warpact]

19 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

This thread should be closed.  The OP posted the same thing back on December 4 under a different (but similar) forum handle.  They are not going to accept any facts or arguments.  They are either trolling or not intelligent enough to understand what is going on.  

THIS THIS THIS and THIS

 

[Outrider_01]

30 minutes ago, Luminara said:

BALSTARS

Gonna steal hat for a blaster, Balstar the Alstar

 

I kinda recognize Bill Z Bubba from way back, Luminara sounds familar as well.  Old timers 😛😛

[Luminara]

45 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

This thread should be closed.  The OP posted the same thing back on December 4 under a different (but similar) forum handle.  They are not going to accept any facts or arguments.  They are either trolling or not intelligent enough to understand what is going on.  

 

Preventing people from experiencing a clue-by-4 to the face doesn't do them any favors.

[Dragon Crush]

I am 100% giving far too much credit, but maybe OP is just poorly communicating a desire to show that a poorly designed test, performed once, with small sample sizes, can provide faulty data, in which case they would be correct.