Make Lethal damage.... lethal?

[Galaxy Brain]

Just a random shower thought, but it occured to me that a ton of "armored" enemies resist lethal damage, which makes sense, but then unarmored enemies just take normal damage. 

 

Given how often lethal resists come up, shouldn't more "basic" enemies actually have a weakness to lethal to even things out? I know that many (armored/robotic) types resist lethal and are weak to smashing, on the flip side lethal should be equally dangerous to their fleshy/squishy counterparts. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Bossk_Hogg]

I think an enemy damage resistance pass was stated to be on the docket after the tanker AT changes. So likely good news for smash/lethal and a smoother experience for psychic. Pre-emptive condolences to fire. 

[WanderingAries]

I've always gotten Lethal and Smash mixed in my head as (I think) they're the low tier dmg wise. IIRC, Lethal is I stabbed you and Smash is I whacked you with something physically.

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, WanderingAries said:

I've always gotten Lethal and Smash mixed in my head as (I think) they're the low tier dmg wise. IIRC, Lethal is I stabbed you and Smash is I whacked you with something physically.

 

Yes, legal damage is bullets and blades, smashing damage is punches, kicks, clubs, staves, etc.

[VileTerror]

Please don't edit that typo.  I like the thought of a "Legal Damage" Type, since I have a law firm group on Everlasting.

[boggo2300]

4 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

Please don't edit that typo.  I like the thought of a "Legal Damage" Type, since I have a law firm group on Everlasting.

a damage type there is NO mitigation for!!!!

[Sakura Tenshi]

I can agree with this. Unarmored foes like the hellions, skulls, non-brick outcasts, tsoo (who should probably rely more on defense for mitigation), Circle of Thorns, etc.

 

Similarly, I'd also like to suggest some enemy factions actually have a weakness to psionic damage besides clockwork. For a damage type the live devs felt was 'too strong and exotic', nothing besides is really weak to it, but a lot more resist it. My own logic for what should be weak to psychic damage would be to look at enemies with a compromised will and state of mind. So Carnies would be hit hard because they've surrendered much of their will to the amusement of Vanessa DeVore, Paragon Protectors have had their minds messed with beyond recognition even as clone servants, trolls and freakshow have willingly imbibed drugs that mess with their brains, so these kinds of foes just have weak wills and are easily victims to psionic assault.

[Redlynne]

To put it into Ye Olde Skool D&D terms ...

 

Lethal = Piercing + Slashing damage

Smashing = Bludgeoning damage

 

Knives and Bullets?  Lethal damage type.

Hammers and Fists?  Smashing damage type.

 

Everything else flows from there.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

 

Yes, legal damage is bullets and blades, smashing damage is punches, kicks, clubs, staves, etc.

I usually describe it as Lethal being separation force.  It divides matter by using a wedge or specific gravitational force that pulls physical matter away from other matter that is close enough to form a solid object/creature. Many concept for blades, cutting or dividing exists and can incorporate quantum mechanics to describe why something is being slit apart.

 

Smashing seems a bit simpler but isn't limited to just physical objects.  It's merely the opposite of lethal (dividing, splitting).  It's crushing and compressing.  There's a reason gravity control does smashing damage and not smashing and energy.  All it's doing is making objects that have a gravity have more and since it's physical structure cannot withstand such increased pressure, it compacts and thus its structure is compromised (i.e. damage).  

 

I believe how these forces contrast each other can then be combined with other types of damage to create unique effects is why lethal and smashing damage exists functionally.  We all know Cold + Smashing = throwing clumps of ice at someone to bludgeon them, so what would Cold + Lethal be?  Perhaps vacating a designated space of heat and air (a vacuum attack)?

 

As for the effects of of Lethal damage, I always thought it'd be a cool mechanic if, by its namesake, pure lethal damage had a chance of instantly defeating foes dependent on their rank, vulnerability to lethal damage and current HP.  If their current HP is full, there's a chance of the target instantly dying unless they have a moderate amount of resistance to lethal damage.  Would have some interesting interactions with Corruptor if using a lethal damage set, they'd have a chance of instantly killing foes at the start and swiftly demolishing foes who are below half.

[Galaxy Brain]

4 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

I think an enemy damage resistance pass was stated to be on the docket after the tanker AT changes. So likely good news for smash/lethal and a smoother experience for psychic. Pre-emptive condolences to fire. 

I had gathered data on 60 enemy types in my guide here prior:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1arWBGWuwGCWqSrkLgnWK26xNTrILUO_QNKn8034A3L0/edit?usp=drivesdk

 

Its... kind of odd the spread of how often certain types are resisted or super effective for lack of a better term lol. Lethal really doesnt feel lethal at all with fewer enemies weak to it. At least Smashing is a decent "basic" type where tons of enemies that are armored get crushed by it specifically to offset enemies that are resistant. 

[Bossk_Hogg]

5 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

a damage type there is NO mitigation for!!!!

Just gotta get enough litigation mitigation set bonuses!

Edited January 14, 2020 by Bossk_Hogg

[Alchemystic]

I think the Devouring Earth are one of few enemy groups that have separate resistances to smashing and lethal. The plantlike enemies are resistant to smashing, with the rocky enemies are resistant to lethal. 

 

So there is definitely some sort of distinction between the two in some enemy groups, so why not more?

 

Light armored targets should be resistant to smashing, and heavily armored targets should be resistant to lethal.

[SeraphimKensai]

10 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

Yes, legal damage is bullets and blades, etc.

Maybe legal damage could drain your influence, and when you're out you just die.

[WanderingAries]

21 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

a damage type there is NO mitigation for!!!!

But...you're Supposed to Mitigate the Damages...Or atleast that's what my one college business class said. :p

[Galaxy Brain]

39 minutes ago, WanderingAries said:

But...you're Supposed to Mitigate the Damages...Or atleast that's what my one college business class said. 😛

You mean litigate the damages?

[biostem]

On 1/13/2020 at 5:36 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

Just a random shower thought, but it occured to me that a ton of "armored" enemies resist lethal damage, which makes sense, but then unarmored enemies just take normal damage. 

 

Given how often lethal resists come up, shouldn't more "basic" enemies actually have a weakness to lethal to even things out? I know that many (armored/robotic) types resist lethal and are weak to smashing, on the flip side lethal should be equally dangerous to their fleshy/squishy counterparts. 

IMO, lethal and smashing damage sources should be "cheaper" to use, since they're generally from very mundane sources.  Perhaps all s/l attacks should receive an end cost discount.

[Sakura Tenshi]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

IMO, lethal and smashing damage sources should be "cheaper" to use, since they're generally from very mundane sources.  Perhaps all s/l attacks should receive an end cost discount.

Probably with the exception of Titan Weapons. I mean, I love it, but dear god it would be broken if all titan weapon attacks had their end cost reduced by more than 20%

 

That aside, another possibility that we already see a bit of with sets like Street Justice and dual blades (and debatably Staff fighting and dual pistols) is to go through and give Lethal and smashing damage focused sets more utilities to their attacks. Like the bleeding wounds inflicted in the Attack Vitals combo of Dual Blades or the sharpness of Katana's Lotus drops could apply a moderate -regen debuff, Focus Chi could not just boost your attack power, but also briefly boost your own regeneration and recovery, War Mace could gain some -Res from some of it's harder hitting attacks, and so on.

[biostem]

17 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

Probably with the exception of Titan Weapons. I mean, I love it, but dear god it would be broken if all titan weapon attacks had their end cost reduced by more than 20%

 

That aside, another possibility that we already see a bit of with sets like Street Justice and dual blades (and debatably Staff fighting and dual pistols) is to go through and give Lethal and smashing damage focused sets more utilities to their attacks. Like the bleeding wounds inflicted in the Attack Vitals combo of Dual Blades or the sharpness of Katana's Lotus drops could apply a moderate -regen debuff, Focus Chi could not just boost your attack power, but also briefly boost your own regeneration and recovery, War Mace could gain some -Res from some of it's harder hitting attacks, and so on.

Well, IMO the whole "momentum" mechanic in Titan Weapons kind of offsets that.  I could adding a bleed effect to lethal attacks, but then you're stepping on fire's toes as the element that deals additional DoT.  A -res effect is sonic's thing, (so maybe we could use a sonic melee set in that case).  They tried to give war mace a disorient effect and axe a knock effect, but those aren't reliable enough IMO.  Maybe sets that utilize a physical weapon could gain an "impact" effect to reflect the fact that you're actually being hit with an object, (though then you'd realistically need to include ice melee as well).  *shrugs*  There's just so many ways you can go with this...

[Redlynne]

4 minutes ago, biostem said:

I could adding a bleed effect to lethal attacks, but then you're stepping on fire's toes as the element that deals additional DoT.

Except ... Fire would have a Fire DoT ... while Lethal would have a Lethal DoT.  Code it such that the Lethal DoT doesn't happen vs Robots (an already defined category of $Targets, so piggyback off the distinction) and you'd be fine, I'm thinking.

[Sakura Tenshi]

51 minutes ago, biostem said:

Well, IMO the whole "momentum" mechanic in Titan Weapons kind of offsets that.  I could adding a bleed effect to lethal attacks, but then you're stepping on fire's toes as the element that deals additional DoT.  A -res effect is sonic's thing, (so maybe we could use a sonic melee set in that case).  They tried to give war mace a disorient effect and axe a knock effect, but those aren't reliable enough IMO.  Maybe sets that utilize a physical weapon could gain an "impact" effect to reflect the fact that you're actually being hit with an object, (though then you'd realistically need to include ice melee as well).  *shrugs*  There's just so many ways you can go with this...

Well, the idea is not to give the benefit to the whole set but individual powers have a special debuff in addition to the usual -def and such so they have a wide range of tools for many tasks.

[biostem]

37 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

Well, the idea is not to give the benefit to the whole set but individual powers have a special debuff in addition to the usual -def and such so they have a wide range of tools for many tasks.

I'm not against the idea per se, but then you'd end up leaving the other powers, that didn't get those bonuses, out to dry...

[Galaxy Brain]

Looking at my work in averaging out over 60 enemy factions, I saw the following spread:

 

Type		Damage Type
AVG Resist		Average Resist value across all enemy factions of the chart with non 0 Resists
ADJ Resist		Average Resist compared to the encounter chance of Res/Weak enemies
Chance of Res		Chance to encounter an enemy that resists the type
Chance of Weak		Chance to encounter an enemy that is weak to the type

 

 

 

This here is across all levels, enemy ranks, etc. The big discrepancy here is that even with Toxic having 0 enemies weak to it from the data I pulled, it has only a ~32% chance to be resisted while Lethal is at ~38% after accounting for the few enemies that are weak to it. The average "gap" is about 24% more often resisted than weak, making Psychic / Cold / Energy close to average, Fire and Negative below Average, and S/L/Tox above average.

 

 

Looking at the spread as you level isn't fun either. Comparing it to say, Energy Damage:

 

 

Energy has a similar "encounter" curve, but the key differences here are that the chance of enemies weak to En is actually sort of decent per range. 

[oedipus_tex]

Lethal damage has always seemed to me like it should have a chance to crit. Even if that chance is really low. It would be an interesting addition.

[Chris24601]

The funny thing to me is that Lethal should generally be LESS resisted by hard targets.

 

Actual modern and historical armor is REALLY good at soaking up kinetic impacts that are spread out. You may get knocked down more often from a large blunt force, but falling over is not the same thing as being wounded.

 

There’s a reason just about every armor piercing weapon in history; spears/pikes, arrows, bullets, tank shells... has been a piercer (lethal in this game’s parlence). Bullets and similar penetrators are the best design possible by the laws of physics for pushing through material and leaving holes in it.

 

Heck, modern armor piercing rounds are specifically designed to not just push aside the armor plating (or super-dense skin as the case might be) and then go richocheting high velocity fragments off the inner walls of the armor to rip up the soft interior.

 

In other words, lethal should probably be less resisted by “crunchy on the outside chewy in the middle” targets (people in armor, robots with internal components) and more resisted by uniformly crunchy (ex. devouring earth, clockwork) or no diversified anatomy targets (blobs, energy monsters, ghosts).

[Sakura Tenshi]

Thing is, Chris, just because that's realistic doesn't mean it's fun or good for gameplay balance even. If were were to push everything strictly to realism in a super hero game of all things, assault rifle, dual pistols, and archery should just not even bother existing as powersets (and heck, when do people armed with these things actually do anything in comicbooks? And don't bring up hawkeye and green arrow, they're either using special super tech arrows or doing jack all in fights, and notice how Black Widow has more success punching things than shooting them), and from a gameplay perspective you're creating 'trap choices' to punish players who don't know the meta, which any RPG designer except Monte Cooke of Wizards of the Coast will tell you is awful game design. And if you really want to get into the 'realism' aspect, then what about heroes or villains who learn to bypass armor consistently by targetting gaps and weakpoints. (know what shrapnel running rampant inside a machine's parts can do? ask a tank)

 

There should be more things that are actually weak against lethal damage (like fleshy targets and badguys who clearly don't bother with bodyarmor of any kind), overall resistance to it should be reduced, or lethal centric powersets should to be buffed in some way to make the lack of damage worthwhile. Otherwise you just punish players for following a concept.

 

I speak as someone whose main back on live was a katana/SR scrapper, and it really really REALLY stank like a skunk towards end game because the only things weak to lethal were carnies and some banished pantheon (the zombies), and that last one got removed for the incarnate/level 50 versions of the mob later.