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Patch Notes for January 21st, 2020 - Issue 26, Page 4 (Release Candidate 5)

The Curator

By The Curator
in [Open Beta] Patch Notes

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The Curator

The Curator

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Issue 26, Page 4 (Release Candidate 5)

This is a Release Candidate. This means that this patch contains files as they would go to the Live servers; because of this, several Pineapple features like all the Merit recipes being free and a bunch of badges being awarded at character creation are disabled. Those features will come back once the Release Candidate set of patches is done and we go back to regular Experimental or Beta patches. Commands such as levelupxp, influence and boostset should still be available.

 

The Pineapple database has been reset. Use the Beta Account Center to copy characters from the Live servers into Pineapple.

 

Changes from RC4

  • Attempt to gracefully handle and recover from a bug in certain AMD/ATI video drivers that crash when queried for how much video memory they have.
  • Provost Marchand (Brickstown) will no longer give Hero-only missions to Villains/Rogues under rare circumstances.
  • Tanker Inherent buff to arc reduced to 50% (same as the radius buff, if this does not meet the desired result once live, it might be changed in the future.)
  • Target cap changes:
    • Brute > Katana > Golden Dragonfly 10 => 5
    • Scrapper > Katana > Golden Dragonfly 10 => 5
    • Stalker > Ninja Blade > Golden Dragonfly 10 => 5
    • Tanker > Katana > Golden Dragonfly 16 => 10
    • Tanker > Spines > Spine Burst 10 => 16
    • Tanker > Spines > Quills 16 => 10
    • Tanker > Spines > Throw Spines 16 => 10
    • Tanker > War Mace > Crowd Control =>16 > 10
  • Area changes:
    • Tanker > Battle Axe > Pendulum: Arc back to 180, ignores Arc Buffs
    • Tanker > Electric Melee > Lightning Clap: now ignores Radius Buffs
    • Tanker > Super Strength > Hand Clap: Radius back to 15,  now ignores Radius Buffs
    • Tanker > Super Strength > Foot Stomp: Radius back to 15,  now ignores Radius Buffs
    • Tanker > War Mace > Crowd Control: Arc back to 180, ignores Arc Buffs
  • The patch notes below have been updated to include a comprehensive list of target cap changes.

 

Changes from RC3

  • Fixed a crash relating to team invites.
  • Fixed a crash relating to swapping between character builds
  • Added some safety checks to game startup to ensure the game will not try to run borderless or on a monitor that's no longer connected.
  • Added a new command line parameter: -gfxreset
    • This will cause the game to reset all graphics settings and launch the game in windowed mode.
  • The Mission Architect database has been synced up with the Live servers.

 

Changes from RC2

  • Fixed missing "Do Not Tint" flag in many pet powers.
  • Fixed Epic pool damage tables for Soul Mastery and Ice Mastery.
    • This is to bring it in line with what the patch notes actually say - not a new change.
  • Fixed various text errors on power customization for some armor sets.

 

Changes from RC1

  • Fixed the crash handler not triggering if the install path contained any spaces.
  • Fixed a crash relating to summoning certain Lore pets.
  • Removed some experimental costume format code (to return at a later date).
  • Minor tweaks and fixes to Tanker powers and descriptions.

 

Tanker & Brute Changes

Scaling & Stats

  • Tanker:
    • Ranged damage modifier increased from 0.5 to 0.8, Melee damage modifier increased from 0.8 to 0.95,
      • Bruise has been removed in favour of a flat damage scale increase.
    • Buff modifiers increased to match Controller values.
    • Damage buff cap increased from 400% to 500%.
  • Brute:
    • Ranged and Melee damage modifiers are now equal at 0.75.
    • Damage buff cap lowered from 775% to 700%.
  • All Brute and Tanker Epic pools now use ranged damage modifiers.
    • Note that due to the above changes, Epic Pools should see no damage change at all.

 

AoEs

  • Most Tanker Melee AoE powers have had their target caps increased. 
    • Most cones now have a 10 target cap. 
    • Most PBAoEs now have a 16 target cap.
  • Tanker now gets an inherent buff to the radius of AoE attacks and arc of cones.
    • +50% for AoEs.
    • +50% for cones.
    •  Some powers are unaffected by this buff. This is noted on the power description.
  • Full list of Tanker target cap changes, area changes, etc:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

Brute Fury Generation

  • Hitting AVs no longer gives bonus Fury, but Fury generation for attacking has been increased in a variety of ways:
  • Brute Fury generation now takes into account the cast time of the attack for successful hits.
    • Any attack slower than brawl will now generate bonus Fury if it lands a hit.
  • Brutes now get bonus fury generation in teams - the larger the team, the larger the bonus.
  • Fury now takes 10 seconds without attacking to start its accelerated decay, instead of 5 seconds.
  • The goal of these changes is to improve Fury generation in teams when the Brute is not the only brute, or is in the company of another tanking AT.


Gauntlet & PunchVoke

  • Gauntlet is now applied via a global proc.
    • Any single target power that takes endurance cost enhancements will trigger an AoE taunt.
    • Every AoE power that takes endurance cost enhancements will taunt the enemies it hit.
    • All Auras that take endurance cost enhancements will taunt the enemies they hit.
    • Radius is now the same for all attacks (10ft, 5 targets max)
    • Taunt scale is now 10% higher than the Brute's.
  • Brute PunchVoke is now also applied via a global proc.
    • Any power that either inflicts damage or takes accuracy enhancements will trigger PunchVoke.

 
Power Acquisition Levels

To improve Tanker AoE capability during level up progression, the following powers had their acquisition levels changed:

  • Battle Axe > Whirling Axe = 20, Swoop = 28
  • Martial Arts > Dragon Tail = 20, Focus Chi = 28, Crippling Axe Kick = 35
  • Stone Melee> Tremor = 28, Hurl Boulder = 35 
  • War Mace > Whirling Mace = 20, Clobber = 28


Taunt Auras

  • Brute and Tanker Ice Armor powers no longer have built-in Taunt, they are now instead covered by the inherent global proc.

 

Other Changes

  • The following tanker and brute powers should now accept regular Taunt Enhancements:
    • Oppressive Gloom, Cloak of Fear, Burn (note that burn patches don't taunt, only the up-front damage does.)
  • Spines: Spine Burst> No longer ignores Radius buffs.
  • Spines: Quills > Now ignore Radius buffs.
  • Burn for Brute and Tankers should also accept Taunt Sets (note that any proc on burn will not pass through to the patch.)
  • Brute > Martial Arts > Taunt / Crane Kick: Fixed incorrect power order.

 

Pets & Henchmen Updates

  • Mastermind pets which have been commanded to Stay or to Go To a location will hold that position and will not chase after targets or move closer to use powers that are out of range. Be aware this also means they will not move out of damage patches on their own.
  • Mastermind pets in Follow mode will now always stay within a 100' radius of their owner, regardless if they are in Defensive or Aggressive stance. Pets that are primarily ranged attackers will try to stay in the Supremacy radius.
  • The pet AI now ignores the aggro cap. This should prevent pets from standing around twiddling their thumbs in Incarnate Trials and other situations where many pets are attacking the same target.
  • Pets now give a strong preference to selecting targets that are within 50' of the pet's owner. This helps melee-oriented Mastermind pets stay in Supremacy range more often, while still allowing them to move and effectively engage targets outside the range.
  • A number of pets have been classified as "Ranged Only" pets. The AI for these pets will no longer change position in order to use melee powers such as Brawl. They still possess these powers and will use them opportunistically if a target is in range, but will not move in order to do so.
  • The pets that no longer move in to use melee attacks are:
    • Mercenaries > Soldiers
    • Mercenaries > Medic
    • Mercenaries > Spec Ops
    • Mercenaries > Commando
    • Necromancy > Lich
    • Robotics > Battle Drones
    • Robotics > Protector Bots
    • Robotics > Assault Bot
    • Thugs > Thugs
    • Thugs > Arsonist
    • Thugs > Enforcers

 

Powers

Combat Log

  • Combat log output has been standardized. Many powers used to report the wrong damage type and effects in the combat log, this process has fixed that, in addition to making the combat log a lot easier to parse.

 

Phantom Army

  • Added new customisation options for Phantom Army
    • Mirror (copy of current character costume)
    • Phantom Mirror (copy of current character costume with Phantom Army VFX)


Other

  • Pool > Teleportation > Long Range Teleport: This power now grants a popup tray power that allows a second chance at teleporting should you fail to teleport the first time. The Second Chance power will remain for 2 minutes or until you zone.
  • Lowered Weaken Resolve's -res debuff from scale -1.5 to scale -1.0.
  • Brute > Katana > Golden Dragonfly: Max targets reduced from 10 to 5
  • Scrapper > Katana > Golden Dragonfly: Max targets reduced from 10 to 5
  • Stalker > Ninja Blade > Golden Dragonfly: Max targets reduced from 10 to 5

 

PvP Powers Changes

  • Global Damage Procs like Hybrid Double Hit, Plant Manipulation's Toxins and  Bio Armor's Offensive Adaptation should now use PvP damage formula in PvP instead of the PvE damage formula.
  • Misc power changes:
  Reveal hidden contents
  • Mez Duration and Suppression rules have been enforced for the following enhancements:
  Reveal hidden contents
  • Mez Duration and Suppression rules have been enforced for the following powers:
  Reveal hidden contents
  • Mez Duration and Suppression rules have been enforced for the following player pet powers:
  Reveal hidden contents
  • Knockback Suppression rules have been enforced for the following powers:
  Reveal hidden contents
  • Knockback Suppression rules have been enforced for the following enhancements:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

Bases

  • Renamed "Bathroom" tab to "Bath & Kitchen"
  • Added 38 new base items created by @Naomi:
  Reveal hidden contents

 

Miscellaneous

  • Added a new command line parameter: -gfxreset
    • This will cause the game to reset all graphics settings and launch the game in windowed mode.
  • Added some safety checks to game startup to ensure the game will not try to run borderless or on a monitor that's no longer connected.
  • Switched to a different method of hooking the Print Screen key. This should fix the issues with using modifier keys in conjunction with it, as well as allow it to pass through to the OS so the traditional "copy to clipboard" functionality works again.
  • Resynchronised modifier key state in certain edge cases (mostly involving the numeric keypad) to try and resolve issues of the shift key rarely getting stuck.

 

Bug Fixes

  • Fixed the team window showing "On mission map" when a teammate is in their Supergroup Base and vice versa.
  • Prevent immediate crash when passing a -patchdir parameter to a nonexistent directory. This seems to be happening on certain Macs.
  • Fixes for many Mapserver crashes unearthed by the new crash handler.
  • Various fixes and stability improvements to the client.
    • This should allow some users that were previously stuck on the Safe Mode client to now use the new client.
  • Fixed a bug that allowed players to inadvertently delete the geometry of entire zones.
  • Possibly fixed a bug in certain AMD/ATI video drivers that crash the client when queried for how much video memory they have.
  • Provost Marchand (Brickstown) will no longer give Hero-only missions to Villains/Rogues under rare circumstances.

 

Powers Fixes

  • Archery > Ranged Shot Fixed a bug where would not animate in the character customization screen.
  • Blaster Ranged > Electric Blast > Corrected an FXGEO feedback error with this power's FX.
  • Blaster Support > Atomic Manipulation > Beta Decay: Text should no longer state it taunts enemies.
  • Blaster Support > Atomic Manipulation > Electron Shackles: Should no longer accept Endurance Modification enhancements or sets.
  • Blaster Support > Psoinic Manipulation > Drain Psych: -Regeneration effect should no longer be enhanceable.
  • Dark Control > Umbra Beast: Should now accept Fear Enhancement and Sets.
  • Devices > Targeting Drone: The power description for Targeting Drone has been fixed.
  • Dominator > Fire Control > Fire Imps: Should now always summon 3 imps.
  • Dominator > Psionic Assault > Drain Psych: -Regeneration effect should no longer be enhanceable.
  • Dominator > Savage Assault > Call hawk & Feral Charge: Should no longer accept Dominator Archetype Enhancement sets.
  • Pool > Force of Will > Mighty Leap > Takeoff effect can now be cancelled.
  • Pool > Force of Will > Weaken Resolve: Fixed typos. Now accepts Accurate ToHit Debuff enhancements.
  • Gravity Control > Singularity should now apply and take advantage of the Impact mechanic.
  • Ice Melee > Frozen Fists (Brute/Stalker/Scrapper) Power Description should no longer say it adds -res.
  • Incarnate > Hybrid : Should no longer fail to shut down after zoning.
  • Martial Arts > Crippling Axe Kick: now accepts defense debuff enhancements and sets.
  • Poison Weaken and Cold Domination -Special powers should no longer be boosted by +Special powers like Power Boost. As a rule, Str effects should not be affected by other Str effects.
  • Pool > Concealment > Stealth and Invisibility: translucency issues should now, FINALLY be fixed.
  • Pool > Leaping > Spring Attack: should now do damage when used by Sentinels
  • Proton Volley's Fast-Snipe sphere FX should now tint properly.
  • Radiation Armor > Beta Decay: Taunt magnitude should now always be Mag 4
  • Radiation Melee > Contamination AoE should now reliably trigger when hitting a contaminated target.
  • Sentinel > Bio Armor > Athletic Regulation: Should no longer accept travel enhancement sets.
  • Sentinel > Energy Aura > Power Armor:  Should now accept Healing Enhancement Sets
  • Sentinel > Fire Blast > Blazing Blast: Should now do 13 ticks of damage over time.
  • Tanker Melee > Psionic Melee > Greater Psi Blade: Should no longer do AoE insight damage.
  • Temporary Powers > Ethereal Shift should shut down automatically as other Phase Shift powers.
  • Boosts > Performance Shifter > Chance for +Endurance: Should now have a chance to grant the caster Endurance if used on an offensive attack.
  • Arachnos Soldiers > Summoned Spiders should no longer play a teleport fx every 10 seconds.
  • AE Critter > Sonic Resonance > Liquefy: This power had a range of zero. It has been changed to 60ft.
  • AE Critter > Pain Domination > Soothing Aura: This power is now an Auto, as most AE versions of Toggle powers.
  • AE Critter > Force Fields > Personal Force Fields now lasts 30 seconds instead of 0.75 seconds.
  • AE Critter > Assault Rifle > Ignite: Should now properly do damage.
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Microcosm

Microcosm

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 1/21/2020 at 11:08 PM, The Curator said:

Target cap changes:

  • Brute > Katana > Golden Dragonfly 10 => 5
  • Scrapper > Katana > Golden Dragonfly 10 => 5
  • Stalker > Ninja Blade > Golden Dragonfly 10 => 5
Expand  

Why? I understand limiting the Tanker version if the arc has been enhanced I guess, but these? Not that you'll get more than 5 outside of an incredibly lucky scenario, but seems like a strange change to make.

Edited by Microcosm
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Captain Powerhouse

Captain Powerhouse

Posted
  • Developer
Posted
  On 1/22/2020 at 4:16 AM, Microcosm said:

Not that you'll get more than 5 outside of an incredibly lucky scenario

Expand  


Unlikely to even hit 2 as it is, getting 5 would be extremely lucky (even if you wasted a lot of time accommodating foes.)

 

Reason to do this then? Simple consistency. Melee cones are supposed to have a target cap of 5. There are other rule breakers, like Crowd Control, but some of them would actually result in a nerf, so go untouched.

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image.png.92a3b58fceeba87311219011193ecb00.png

 

csr

csr

Posted
Posted
  On 1/21/2020 at 11:08 PM, The Curator said:

Issue 26, Page 4 (Release Candidate 5)

 

Changes from RC4

  • Tanker Inherent buff to arc reduced to 50% (same as the radius buff, if this does not meet the desired result once live, it might be changed in the future.)

 

Expand  

I'm not crazy about this at all.  Cones now get a 50% area increase with a 100% target cap increase while spheres get a 125% area increase and 60% target cap increase.

  • Like 1
csr

csr

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 1/22/2020 at 4:51 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:


Unlikely to even hit 2 as it is, getting 5 would be extremely lucky (even if you wasted a lot of time accommodating foes.)

 

Reason to do this then? Simple consistency. Melee cones are supposed to have a target cap of 5. There are other rule breakers, like Crowd Control, but some of them would actually result in a nerf, so go untouched.

Expand  

I hit 2 quite often with Golden Dragonfly, Head Splitter and Cleave.  Hitting more than 2 is a challenge though.  And even hitting 2 more than once in a single fight isn't that common, it's usually just the first use in a fight that gets 2.  Hitting 5 is all but impossible.

 

Anyway, I'm assuming that Cleave retaining its 10 target cap on Brutes and Scrappers and getting 16 on Tankers is an oversight, since it is essentially the same power as Golden Dragonfly and Head Splitter.

Edited by csr
csr

csr

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 1/21/2020 at 11:08 PM, The Curator said:

Issue 26, Page 4 (Release Candidate 5)

 

Target cap changes:

  • Tanker > Battle Axe > Cleave 10 => 16
  • Tanker > Dual Blades > One Thousand Cuts 10 => 16
  • Tanker > Fiery Melee > Breath of Fire 10 => 16
  • Tanker > Ice Melee > Frost 10 => 16
  • Tanker > Kinetic Melee > Repulsing Torrent 10 => 16
  • Tanker > Street Justice > Spinning Strike 10 => 16

 

The following powers ignore Arc Buffs:

  • Battle Axe > Pendulum
  • War Mace > Crowd Control

 

The following powers ignore Radius Buffs:

  • Electric Melee > Lightning Clap
  • Super Strength > Hand Clap

 

The following powers have had their Arcs adjusted for Tankers only:

  • Broad Sword > Slice: Lowered from 130° to 90° (actually 135° after the 50% increase from Tanker inherent buff)
  • Katana > Flashing Steel: Lowered from 130° to 90° (actually 135° after the 50% increase from Tanker inherent buff)
Expand  

 

In the above I note some oddities...

 

  • Cleave, as I mentioned in my previous post, seems like it's breaking the new rules. 
  • Then we have a melee cone in One Thousand Cuts that is breaking the rules a la Crowd Control for other ATs.  However it gets the target cap increase that Crowd Control is denied despite having a smaller arc (90 deg buffed to 135 instead of 180 ignoring the buff) and length (7' instead of 8' for War Mace), so that its area 57% as large while its target cap is 160% that of Crowd Control.
  • Breath of Fire, Frost and Repulsing Torrent are all ranged cones.  I believe the only other ones in the melee sets are Shockwave and Throw Spines, which aren't getting the target cap or arc increases (presumably because the sets do a lot of AoE to begin with).  So these seem like they establish a rule for ranged cones getting 16 targets like spheres.
  • Spinning Strike hitting 16... good luck with that.
  • Pendulum and Crowd Control keeping the 180 degree arc and ignoring the buff seems odd.  Couldn't you have changed them to 120 degrees and let them have the buff a la Slice and Flashing Steel?
  • Lightning Clap and Hand Clap get fixed radii and hence no proc benefit, but Fault gets the proc benefit of the smaller base radius and offsetting buff?  That seems inconsistent.  Of course, Fault is ranged instead of PB, recharges 50% faster and only does KD instead of KB out of the box, and so is already a better power (it does have a longer animation/cast though).
  • Lastly... I'm not sure why Slice and Flashing Steel are picked out for getting little effective buff.  They could easily have been given a 120 degree arc instead of 90.  Perhaps BS and Kat are over-performing in AoE too?
Edited by csr
Attempted to get rid of the hidden code element, several times.
csr

csr

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 1/21/2020 at 11:08 PM, The Curator said:

Issue 26, Page 4 (Release Candidate 5)

 

Changes from RC4

  • Target cap changes:
    • Tanker > Katana > Golden Dragonfly 16 => 6

 

Expand  

This is a typo, the actual new target cap is 10.

Edited by csr
Mystic Fortune

Mystic Fortune

Posted
Posted
  On 1/22/2020 at 4:51 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:


Unlikely to even hit 2 as it is, getting 5 would be extremely lucky (even if you wasted a lot of time accommodating foes.)

 

Reason to do this then? Simple consistency. Melee cones are supposed to have a target cap of 5. There are other rule breakers, like Crowd Control, but some of them would actually result in a nerf, so go untouched.

Expand  

 

Challenge accepted.

Myrmidon

Myrmidon

Posted
Posted
  On 1/22/2020 at 7:09 AM, Mr.Sinister said:

Brutes received buffs to accommodate the tank buffs.  As the tank buffs are continually being reduced, will we see a reduction in the brute buffs as well?

Expand  

While I am starting to reach a point where I can’t argue with this logic, let me say that after the stress test, I think that these buffs for Brutes are not that, they are just QoL changes to make Brutes keep up on teams.

Playing CoX is it’s own reward

csr

csr

Posted
Posted
  On 1/22/2020 at 7:19 AM, Myrmidon said:

While I am starting to reach a point where I can’t argue with this logic, let me say that after the stress test, I think that these buffs for Brutes are not that, they are just QoL changes to make Brutes keep up on teams.

Expand  

If it simply made Brutes easier to play then it would be a QoL change.  It doesn't do just that though, it actually makes Brutes better in a fair bit of the end game content - or anywhere there is competition for aggro (which includes control, which reduces aggro).

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Sovera

Sovera

Posted
Posted

*headscratch* Someone remind me again, we -are- buffing Tankers, right? Because nerf after nerf to the proposed changes have made six months worth of 'WOOOOO BUFFS!' to, 'hmm, sure, I guess?'

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- Tanker Fire Armor: the Turtle, the Allrounder, the Dragon, and compilation of Fire Armor builds.

- Tanker Stone Armor: beginner friendly (near) immortal Tanker for leveling/end-game and Stone Armor framework.

- Brute Rad/Stone and compilation of Brute Stone Armor builds.

csr

csr

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 1/22/2020 at 12:22 PM, Sovera said:

*headscratch* Someone remind me again, we -are- buffing Tankers, right? Because nerf after nerf to the proposed changes have made six months worth of 'WOOOOO BUFFS!' to, 'hmm, sure, I guess?'

Expand  

I get the very same feeling.

 

My biggest complaints right now are:

  1. Some sets benefit far more than others from the Tanker Inherent due to it being mostly about AoEs now.
  2. The rules regarding target caps seems to need readdressing as Tanker melee cones in general aren't going to be able to hit their caps while most spheres now will hit them easily.  It's really just that the target caps are 1, 5, 10 or 16.  As it stands now that makes caps meaningless for most Tanker melee cone attacks.  When the arc was being increased 100% rather than just 50%, that wasn't the case.

 

I'm going to run down the list of Tanker melee cones (note the "melee" there) to support my main assertion in point #2.  I'm going to use square feet per target as my metric.  I think you need around 8 or 9 square feet per target to hit the cap based upon experience and some basic testing.

  • Battle Axe:  Cleave 2.62 (with the corrected max targets of 10), Pendulum 7.70.  I doubt Pendulum will hit 10 often, but it can probably do it.
  • Broad Sword:  Slice 5.77, Head Splitter 2.62.  Good luck with either hitting 10.
  • Claws:  Eviscerate 3.85.  Eviscerate won't hit its cap.
  • Dark Melee:  Shadow Maul 2.89.  Shadow Maul won't hit its cap.
  • Dual Blades:  Sweeping Strike 5.77, One Thousand Cuts 3.61  Neither will hit their caps.
  • Electric Melee:  Jacob's Ladder 3.21.  You won't hit 10 with a 7' 75 deg arc cone.
  • Katana:  Flashing Steel 5.77, Golden Dragonfly 2.62.  Neither will hit its cap.
  • Psionic Melee:  Psi Blade Sweep 4.49.  No capping here either.
  • Radiation Melee:  Proton Sweep 4.81.  Again, it's not hitting 10.
  • Savage Melee:  Shred 5.13.  No capping.
  • Spines:  Ripper 5.77.  Like all the other 135 deg 7' cones, you aren't likely to hit 10.
  • Staff Fighting:  Guarded Spin 9.54, Innocuous Strikes 9.54.  They should be hitting the cap occasionally.
  • Street Justice:  Sweeping Cross 3.21.  Nope.
  • Titan Weapons:  Defensive Sweep 20.94 Titan Sweep 20.94, Arc of Destruction 10.47.  And yes, TW is OP.
  • War Mace:  Shatter 3.77, Crowd Control 10.05.  Crowd Control can cap with its 8' 180 degree cone and 10 targets.

So that's 7 of 23 that can hit their caps.  Though 1 (Pendulum) will only do it rarely and for 2 (Staff Fighting's pair) it will be uncommon.  Only Titan Weapons trio and Crowd Control can routinely hit their caps.

 

You'll note that there are few powers that fully "win" under the I26.4rc5 set up.  They either can't hit their new caps (the 16 with metrics under 7.7 above), don't have new caps (Defensive Sweep, Titan Sweep and Crowd Control) or don't get an arc increase (Pendulum and Arc of Destruction plus the three from the last group).  That leaves just two powers as "complete" winners:  Guarded Spin and Innocuous Strikes.  These are the only two that can approach the 100% increase in targets hit available with the new Tanker melee cone target caps.

 

Just for completeness...

 

The spheres all have either 12' or 15' radii and 16 targets with the exceptions of Thunderstrike with it's 10.5' radius and Spinning Strike with its 9' radius.  The 12 footers have a metric of 28.27, the 15 footers 44.18, Thunderstrike 21.65 and Spinning Strike 15.90.  They can all cap, and the 15' ones can do it easily.  Only Spinning Strike will have any trouble capping.  Think of the 12 footers as having 5 Ripper-sized areas to hit 16 instead of Ripper trying to hit 10 in just one of those areas.

 

The ranged cones are a bit different.  Most can hit their caps.  Those that get the buffs received a 50% area and 60% target cap buff, so aren't changed much in their chance to cap versus I26.3.  Shockwave and Throw Spines don't get buffs, so they're the same as I26.3 with a metric of 70.69 and if you're not hitting the cap, then you aren't trying (i.e. you're using them in melee).  Repulsing Torrent is at 58.91 (compared to 62.83 in I26.3).  Breath of Fire has a metric of only 5.52 with its 15' 45 degree arc cone and 16 target cap.  The range can be buffed though, so with that you can probably get to the cap (one 20% range buff increases the metric 44% to 7.93, so you likely need more than one to cap regularly, and even then you'll have to wait for foes to clump and then move to line them up - that 8 to 9 square feet per target benchmark is about being able to, not about being able to routinely).  Frost is a 10' 135 degree cone with a metric of 7.36.  Like Breath of Fire, it probably needs range enhancement to hit its new caps, but it can do it.

 

 

The buff to Tanker melee cones is now on par with that to spheres (and ranged cones) as the effective capping factors are the 50% area increase for melee cones and the 60% target cap increase for spheres.  So it may be what's wanted.  It's just odd to me to see an almost uniformly meaningless target cap for melee cones.

 

 

Edited by csr
Clarifcation; added "Tanker" to melee cone references; added info on Spinning Strike
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SwitchFade

SwitchFade

Posted
Posted

Just as a point of reference for the whole CoH family,

 

These will be a buff. It may be advisable that these buffs start small and adjust upwards from there. These changes should be published as a baseline, allowing more focused adjustment later. In essence,

 

- Publish a small buff, v1.0, and refine from there

- Said buff should allow reference for individual set changes

- Patience, the changes will be an improvement, allowing future refinement

 

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siolfir

siolfir

Posted
Posted
  On 1/22/2020 at 10:45 PM, SwitchFade said:

Just as a point of reference for the whole CoH family,

 

These will be a buff. It may be advisable that these buffs start small and adjust upwards from there. These changes should be published as a baseline, allowing more focused adjustment later. In essence,

 

- Publish a small buff, v1.0, and refine from there

- Said buff should allow reference for individual set changes

- Patience, the changes will be an improvement, allowing future refinement

 

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The whole issue is that the buff started out at too much and has been adjusted backwards ever since, even past the point where most people - even the ones who didn't want to go in this direction - were "yeah, okay, this is good, sure, just push something out." The one patch that was actually worse than what's on live for several builds and powersets was reverted, then no more Tanker changes for several patches, until this latest patch where the arc boost was reduced and some powers were adjusted so that even the smallest of buffs (additional proc chances for the 15' AoEs that were reduced to 10' so they would remain the same size) were removed.

 

I highlighted "start small and adjust upwards from there" for a reason: I completely agree with it. Had this been the starting point, people still would be going "eh, this is a buff, I guess?" and would still complain about Bruising being gone, or want the changes to take a different direction than more damage, or just generally ask for more. But since it has been a gradual decrease, it doesn't come across as a buff to live but instead as a nerf from the previous buffs, and with limited developer time and resources it's looked at as an opportunity loss since you'll have to wait for the next round after anything else that comes along. Sure, we don't know that, but it's human nature at work.

  • Like 4
Jaguaratron

Jaguaratron

Posted
Posted
  On 1/22/2020 at 4:51 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:


Unlikely to even hit 2 as it is, getting 5 would be extremely lucky (even if you wasted a lot of time accommodating foes.)

 

Reason to do this then? Simple consistency. Melee cones are supposed to have a target cap of 5. There are other rule breakers, like Crowd Control, but some of them would actually result in a nerf, so go untouched.

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While the instinct is to cry nerf this point stands

  • Like 1
Sovera

Sovera

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 1/22/2020 at 10:45 PM, SwitchFade said:

Just as a point of reference for the whole CoH family,

 

These will be a buff. It may be advisable that these buffs start small and adjust upwards from there. These changes should be published as a baseline, allowing more focused adjustment later. In essence,

 

- Publish a small buff, v1.0, and refine from there

- Said buff should allow reference for individual set changes

- Patience, the changes will be an improvement, allowing future refinement

 

Expand  

That's a nice feeling, but it's not how things really work. The current dev team is small and has lots of projects ahead. I don't see them finishing this and getting started on the next big thing and still keep on hammering at Tanker changes. Way I see it, correctly or not, once these changes are done that's it for Tankers for the foreseeable future.

 

I don't even play a Tanker so I don't have a vested interest in these, but @csr hit the nail on the head with the useless changes to cones. Buffs for the sake of spreadsheets are not buffs.

Edited by Sovera
  • Like 2

- Simple guide for newcomers. - Money making included among other things.

- Tanker Fire Armor: the Turtle, the Allrounder, the Dragon, and compilation of Fire Armor builds.

- Tanker Stone Armor: beginner friendly (near) immortal Tanker for leveling/end-game and Stone Armor framework.

- Brute Rad/Stone and compilation of Brute Stone Armor builds.

csr

csr

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 1/22/2020 at 11:32 PM, Sovera said:

That's a nice feeling, but it's not how things really work. The current dev team is small and has lots of projects ahead. I don't see them finishing this and getting started on the next big thing and still keep on hammering at Tanker badges. Way I see it, correctly or not, once these changes are done that's it for Tankers for the foreseeable future.

 

I don't even play a Tanker so I don't have a vested interest in these, but @csr hit the nail on the head with the useless changes to cones. Buffs for the sake of spreadsheets are not buffs.

Expand  

 

To be clear, I said the changes to the Tanker melee caps are so great that the caps will rarely prove a factor.  The arc increase at 50% is still a significant buff, it's just that the target cap increases don't mean a whole lot at that level of arc increase.  In a saturated environment such as farming, they mean something, but in a more sparse environment where a team wipes stuff out before it can fully clump up, the caps don't mean all that much. My 8 to 9 square foot benchmark was for the farm environment, since I was talking about being able reaching the cap at all.  A higher number of from 12 to 24 square feet per target is needed to estimate targets hit in a sparser environment (I use 12 even for my farm benchmark).  And when you start getting to 16 target caps, the number of targets actually available gets to be important.  Even at 10 that means something at lower levels.

 

Here's a list of the Tanker melee cone attacks I have hitting more than 5 on average even in a farm environment:  Battle Axe / Pendulum, Staff Fighting / Guarded Spin, Staff Fighting / Innocuous Strikes, Titan Weapons / Arc of Destruction and War Mace / Crowd Control.  Note that Crowd Control was already at a target cap of 10 (and Pendulum was probably supposed to have the cap of 10 that Cleave got, since BA and WM are otherwise very similar).  So only 4 Tanker melee cones are likely to benefit from the cap increase even in a fairly well saturated environment.  And two of those are in one set.

 

I have limited access to data mining; just from a private server with me playing solo isn't good for much except coming up with estimates of square feet per target and such.  So I'm using a theoretical benchmark.  In that benchmark the target cap for Tanker sphere's and ranged cones has a significant effect on the result.  Those caps for Tanker melee cones do not.  Staff Fighting is the only set where they're more than a small adjustment.  Prior to the arc reduction, that wasn't the case.  Before that about half of the sets were significantly affected by the cap.

 

Hopefully Captain Powerhouse is using data mining for his performance measures.  And if he isn't, then hopefully he isn't simply assuming these powers can reach - or in many cases, even approach - their target caps.

 

I'm not sure how long whatever patch that hits live will remain untouched.  But I have to say I think that it is likely going to be later rather than sooner that such matters get addressed.  As I think the next set of AT wide changes to Tankers will likely have to wait until all the melee sets that need tweaking are done.  Given that other matters are also on Captain Powerhouse's plate, including some that require pretty extensive amounts of work (such as addressing the passive resists of all critters), I don't think that the melee set tweaks will be done soon.  Super Strength sure.  Energy Melee hopefully.  Beyond that?

Edited by csr
Redundancy
  • Like 2
Fortuneteller

Fortuneteller

Posted
Posted

Forgive me if i'm being dense but..

I know all these tanker and broot changes are important and will take some time to get right. But would it be unreasonable to ask that some of the other fixes be propagated to the live server? Such as the Mastermind pet AI tweaks, Grav Control 'impact' fixes for singularity, teleportation bug fix for SoA Spiderling pets, Illusion Control pet customisation. And many others.

It kinda feels like all the faffing around with Tanker/Broot changes is holding back a lot of other things at this point. Is there a reason for that that i'm not perceiving?

Doc_Scorpion

Doc_Scorpion

Posted
Posted
  On 1/23/2020 at 5:59 AM, Fortuneteller said:

Is there a reason for that that i'm not perceiving?

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Scroll up to the patch notes, and read the text in gold - those are all the changes since this update moved from testing to being a release candidate.  There's a lot more going on than just the tanker changes.  That's just what people are discussing the most.

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summers

summers

Posted
Posted
  On 1/22/2020 at 11:08 PM, siolfir said:

The whole issue is that the buff started out at too much and has been adjusted backwards ever since, even past the point where most people - even the ones who didn't want to go in this direction - were "yeah, okay, this is good, sure, just push something out."

Expand  

 

This is definitely where I was at. This direction wasn't something I really wanted, but have come to accept it and am now excited to see it. Many cone attacks are  quite poor already and I think they could have done with a 100% arc increase.

  • Like 1
Fortuneteller

Fortuneteller

Posted
Posted
  On 1/23/2020 at 6:34 AM, Doc_Scorpion said:


Scroll up to the patch notes, and read the text in gold - those are all the changes since this update moved from testing to being a release candidate.

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Kay i guess i just don't understand what that means then. Like why is there RC1, RC2, RC3, RC4? Is that not just a pile of unreleased things? Why is RC1 not released if we are up to RC4?

I'm not a game developer so most of this stuff is comparable to being written in a foreign language. 😛

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