Heightened Senses Worthless?

[SwitchFade]

55 minutes ago, Fista said:

But it doesn't tell me "WHERE" it's coming from. Environment to me does not equal MOB. So since there's, by that definition, not a lot of environmental damage it seems very limited in usage.

Sorry, what you're saying doesn't make sense. Regardless of what the power's description says, if you click detailed info you'll see what the power DOES. It adds defense to you. And you do know where it comes from, it comes from THE POWER. By taking the power you get the effects shown in detailed info. Even if the power said:

 

"you get super-duper defense granted to you by the glowing eternal space ninjas dragon force of the order of the flaming fireballs that oppose robot dinosaurs that are named captain kilblainian"

 

By clicking the detailed info it tells you defense vs cold, ene, neg ene, fire, smashing, lethal, etc...

 

I get the description is not specific, but the details are. Sure, change the description, but if you spend time trying to figure it out, you'll answer your own question. The way I figured it out was, back in issues 1-23, trying it out. Trying again and clicking everything and reading and taking my time inspecting.

Edited February 8, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Redlynne]

In other words ... this ...

On 2/6/2020 at 7:54 PM, Ignatz the Insane said:

It has 2.48% defense to smashing/lethal, 9.75 defense to fire/cold/negative energy/energy, +perception, and defense debuff resistance.  Seems the opposite of useless to me.

... is the answer.

[Erydanus]

Reading this thread I was almost overwhelmed by a sense of déjà vu. I felt like I had read this entire thread before several months ago. I thought about it and I believe that what actually I am remembering was a very confusing and frustrating conversation on the help channel on  Excelsior.  Someone kept saying over and over they didn't think they would encounter environmental menaces and they just wouldn't  listen when we told them it was just a fancy way of describing the protection against damage types like fire and cold etc. 

 

We're playing a game where people have superpowers. The game engine itself can only represent certain things, and sometimes that means that the powers get a description that implies how they work to justify therm. It's important to not get too bogged down in what is essentially flavor text when you have the ability to look up exactly what the power does. 

[THEDarkTyger]

On 2/7/2020 at 5:51 AM, Fista said:

Ah that famed CoH community helpfulness we hear so much about.

You mean where they specifically and clearly answer your question and you refuse to understand it? Yup.

[THEDarkTyger]

On 2/7/2020 at 8:57 AM, Aracknight said:

It's funny, in the odd way, not the hilarious way, that some people in this community treat newbies as if they are I1 veterans "who should just know better" and act shocked when people don't know things, and treat savvy veterans like ignorant newbies and then hit them with a wall of text for critical damage.

They...did no such thing here, though. They told him specifically what the answer was.

[Ignatz the Insane]

On 2/6/2020 at 5:54 PM, Ignatz the Insane said:

It has 2.48% defense to smashing/lethal, 9.75 defense to fire/cold/negative energy/energy, +perception, and defense debuff resistance.  Seems the opposite of useless to me.

In retrospect, my second sentence was unnecessary.  I can see it as being a bit passive-aggressive.  I could just as easily expounded a bit with something like 'It's unfortunate it's typed defense, but that 9.75% is pretty good.  With three slots, Weave, Combat Jumping, and the two Unique defense IOs, it's around 30% defense to Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative Energy which is pretty easy to soft cap with a few IO sets(although the best are a bit expensive).  On my Willpower characters, this allows me to use the other IO sets to concentrate on Smashing/Lethal defense and resistance.'  Or something like that, I wouldn't consider myself a master builder.  Anyway, let's all be friends here.

[THEDarkTyger]

13 hours ago, Fista said:

But it doesn't tell me "WHERE" it's coming from. Environment to me does not equal MOB. So since there's, by that definition, not a lot of environmental damage it seems very limited in usage.

Because it doesn't matter where the damage comes from. Fire damage is fire damage regardless of whether it's ranged, melee, or AOE, comes from a mob, comes from an exploding vehicle in a mayhem mission, etc. In fact, source of the damage is irrelevant. Just type of damage and whether it's ranged, melee, or AOE.

Edited February 8, 2020 by THEDarkTyger

[Sakura Tenshi]

I will always wonder why the devs chose to make Heightened Senses Typed-Defenses instead of Positional since the name and concept implies you're dodgy, not taking blows and they glance off.

 

[Fista]

2 hours ago, THEDarkTyger said:

Because it doesn't matter where the damage comes from. 

Ah but it does.  Environment- the surroundings or conditions in which a person, animal, or plan lives or operates.  So by adding the "Environment" descriptor, which to my memory I have never seen used to describe another power, left me a little confused. So to me is sounds like the effects are coming from the game world. Not NPCs or MOBs. How often do you encounter environmental effects as I have described them? Once maybe twice every ten levels. Less? If this is the case it's not a very useful power.

 

 It took three posts for someone to explain what the game meant by environmental.  One of which all but called me stupid. 

 

It is very clear by my second post that the definition of Environmental is my sticking point.  So what other powers use the descriptor of environmental?  I know Paragon Wiki is out dated but on their page for Damage Types https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage#Negative_Energy_Damage  no mention of any environment or environmental is used. Is this the sole use of it on the game?

Edited February 8, 2020 by Fista

[Fista]

3 hours ago, THEDarkTyger said:

You mean where they specifically and clearly answer your question and you refuse to understand it? Yup.

I refused to understand it? You can't possibly be suggesting that I willfully ignored the answer? I mean the next post, MY POST, clearly states where my confusion lies. BTW congrats on your mind reading powers.

[Call Me Awesome]

59 minutes ago, Fista said:

Ah but it does.  Environment- the surroundings or conditions in which a person, animal, or plan lives or operates.  So by adding the "Environment" descriptor, which to my memory I have never seen used to describe another power, left me a little confused. So to me is sounds like the effects are coming from the game world. Not NPCs or MOBs. How often do you encounter environmental effects as I have described them? Once maybe twice every ten levels. Less? If this is the case it's not a very useful power.

 

 It took three posts for someone to explain what the game meant by environmental.  One of which all but called me stupid. 

 

It is very clear by my second post that the definition of Environmental is my sticking point.  So what other powers use the descriptor of environmental?  I know Paragon Wiki is out dated but on their page for Damage Types https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage#Negative_Energy_Damage  no mention of any environment or environmental is used. Is this the sole use of it on the game?

Environment is a null term in CoH, damage comes in categories and defense/resistance also comes in categories and it does not matter where the origin of the damage may be.  Defense comes in typed, Smash/Lethal/Energy/Negative/Fire/Cold/Psi, and it comes in positional, Ranged/Melee/AOE.  It does not care if the damage is a mob or a lava pit, it's all the same.  Resistance is all typed, Smash/Lethal/Energy/Negative/Fire/Cold/Psi and applies after an attack has beaten your defenses to reduce the damage you take.

 

Also, the flavor text in power descriptions is famously inaccurate, look at the detailed description for what the power actually DOES, not what it says it does.  IO's also suffer from this, for example the Kismet +Accuracy IO actually gives the considerably more valuable +To Hit, not Accuracy.

 

There's lots of fairly involved mechanics in the game that you'll likely eventually get into if you want to maximize your durability and effectiveness.  Some of it gets into, *gasp* MATH *ugh* and is fairly complex.  There's some real math geeks on these boards who can help you with the details.  A lot of number crunching has gone into this so we know the results we need.  I've always let them figure out the details, I just want to know the bottom line, what do I need to reach to achieve "x".

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Fista said:

4 hours ago, THEDarkTyger said:

You mean where they specifically and clearly answer your question and you refuse to understand it? Yup.

I refused to understand it? You can't possibly be suggesting that I willfully ignored the answer?

1. You wanted an answer.
2. You were promptly given an answer.
3. You didn't want the answer you were given.
4. Now you want to blame everyone else for having given you the right answer in the first place, because you didn't understand the answer you were given the first time ... which was the correct answer to the question you had asked, but it wasn't the answer that you wanted to read/hear (go figure, eh?).

Seems pretty straightforward.

 

Still need help ... or have you got it from here?

[Camel]

Did this turn into a troll post?

[THEDarkTyger]

3 hours ago, Fista said:

Ah but it does.  Environment- the surroundings or conditions in which a person, animal, or plan lives or operates. 

Okay, I thought this would have been too obvious to have to explain to an person with more than a kindergarten intelligence, but I was referring to it not mattering in terms of gameplay. Are you really this dense or have you just resorted to trolling when you didn't get the sympathy you thought you deserved?

[THEDarkTyger]

3 hours ago, Fista said:

I refused to understand it? You can't possibly be suggesting that I willfully ignored the answer? I mean the next post, MY POST, clearly states where my confusion lies. BTW congrats on your mind reading powers.

Well, I mean, the alternative would mean you lacked the intelligence required to have even typed up this post, so.... Yeah, that's what I'm suggesting.

[Fista]

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

1. You wanted an answer.
2. You were promptly given an answer.
3. You didn't want the answer you were given.
4. Now you want to blame everyone else for having given you the right answer in the first place, because you didn't understand the answer you were given the first time ... which was the correct answer to the question you had asked, but it wasn't the answer that you wanted to read/hear (go figure, eh?).

Seems pretty straightforward.

 

Still need help ... or have you got it from here?

1, I did.

2. I was.

3. Wrong. In my very next post I explained that I didn't understand. Hardly refusing the answer. In fact when I was given a clearer explanation I promptly thanked that person. 

4. I'm not sure how you can blame someone for giving a correct answer but what ever. I am, however, a little peeved that a few people in this post have been arrogant jerks about the whole thing. I mean I've been called stupid 13 times and a troll once. I fail to see why this is happening when I have taken pains repeatedly to explain why I had an issue. 

 

It didn't

 

No I've understood this issue since Haijinx made their post Thursday @ 10:23

 

[THEDarkTyger]

5 minutes ago, Fista said:

3. Wrong. In my very next post I explained that I didn't understand.

The only reason you didn't understand is you didn't accept the answer you were given. The first response explained EXACTLY what the power did. You're like the guy who walks past the "closed" sign on a door and says "HOW WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW YOU WERE CLOSED?!" when the staff gets mad at you.

[Fista]

20 minutes ago, THEDarkTyger said:

The only reason you didn't understand is you didn't accept the answer you were given. The first response explained EXACTLY what the power did. You're like the guy who walks past the "closed" sign on a door and says "HOW WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW YOU WERE CLOSED?!" when the staff gets mad at you.

Except it didn't. Apparently you didn't read my post or perhaps it was unclear. To my mind, which I've explained several times already, the descriptor "environmental" was this issue. I know how defense works and even if I didn't it's been explained several times in this very thread.  I notice that no one has pointed out any other powers where that descriptor is used. And if it is I've missed it. This to me as I've never used WP before was odd. It was, to me, unique indicating that it did something different. 

 

And why, besides myself who's been insulted multiple times, should anyone be angry? I didn't understand. That's all you needed to know. If I express confusion at your explanation your response should be something like, "Sorry you didn't understand. What are you having problems with?"  Not, "You're dumb."  I mean you can answer however you like it's just that largely this community has a pretty friendly reputation and I was a little taken aback at the hostility and insults. Now to be fair I have played a little tit for tat in the thread and could have conducted myself better but I again fail to see why every time I explain this I get further insults.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Fista

[THEDarkTyger]

11 minutes ago, Fista said:

Except it didn't. Apparently you didn't read my post or perhaps it was unclear. To my mind, which I've explained several times already, the descriptor "environmental" was this issue.

Except it did. The fact that you can't tell the difference between flavor text and a description of the power's effects is your problem, not the first responder not giving you clear information. They told you EXACTLY what it does.

 

And why, besides myself who's been insulted multiple times

Oh poor you. You got insulted after YOU THREW THE FIRST BARB. How dare people respond to you as you responded to them? The nerve of them!

Edited February 8, 2020 by THEDarkTyger

[Erydanus]

7 hours ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

I will always wonder why the devs chose to make Heightened Senses Typed-Defenses instead of Positional since the name and concept implies you're dodgy, not taking blows and they glance off.

 

 I feel that all defenses imply that you're "dodgy" regardless of whether it's a vector dodge or a category dodge. It's all avoidance. I think that the idea of some blows glancing off is represented in this power set by the resistance to damage that it has in a few places. I'm certainly not one of the OG Devs but I think they were just being very careful to justify describing the powers they used to stay on this relatively narrow theme. I think this power set was made right around the time that some of the devs were not being consistent in how they defined natural origin, and what the threshold that made something a superpower versus a highly trained ability was a bothersome sticking point. 

 

And that is my theory for why they put such flowery flavor text about what this power that we're discussing represented. They wanted to make sure that there was a built-in hand wave to justify someone with natural origin who considered themselves to not have any active superpowers actually having an active superpower. 

[Aracknight]

Oh, so they were warned, they were given an explanation, and nevertheless they persisted, eh?

 

Sounds like some pancaking pancake right there.

 

[Sakura Tenshi]

5 minutes ago, Erydanus said:

 I feel that all defenses imply that you're "dodgy" regardless of whether it's a vector dodge or a category dodge. It's all avoidance.

Ehhh, not quite.

 

Damage Type-centered Defense is the idea that something hits you and deflects off harmlessly like a stone's hard surface or being invulnerable.

 

Positional defense is based around avoiding attacks.

 

You can actually see this still in game, when you dodge an attack through Damage-Typed defenses, you get a little notice that says "deflected", if you avoid through positional it says "dodged" (or "Avoided" don't quite remember)

[Fista]

39 minutes ago, THEDarkTyger said:

Except it did. The fact that you can't tell the difference between flavor text and a description of the power's effects is your problem, not the first responder not giving you clear information. They told you EXACTLY what it does.

 

Oh poor you. You got insulted after YOU THREW THE FIRST BARB. How dare people respond to you as you responded to them? The nerve of them!

It didn't. I understood what it defends against. And yet again I have to explain I did not understand the source of the damage that would be defended against due the the use of the word environmental. Do you not understand that? Haijink sure did.  

 

I thew the first barb? Lets see... My post. First response. My post explaining I didn't understand. First insult from Redlynn.  Also please note I never responded to you until your fist insult. 

 

To be clear. I got how defense worked before the thread. I understood that the power was defending against certain damage types. What I didn't understand was the source of the damage. I really can't believe I have to explain this again. Environment to the best of my knowledge, even now, is a unique power descriptor. Normally it's just power defends against damage type x, y, and z.  So since this is unique I assumed it might not worth it as how often do you take damage from the environment (as I have explained my understanding of how the devs were using it)? I came to the boards looking for an explanation as I didn't 100% trust my understanding. 

 

I also should point out that Ignatz does not in fact answer my question. "Running a KM/WP scrapper and just pinged 30 and my power pic is either a pool power or heightened senses.  Heightened Senses seems kind of useless.  Environmental effects seem far and few between. Unless I'm misunderstanding what they mean by environmental effects?  Thoughts or Opinions?"

 

"Unless I'm misunderstanding what they mean by environmental effects?" Misunderstanding. Environmental effects.  I never asked what it was defending against. 

 

[THEDarkTyger]

59 minutes ago, Fista said:

It didn't. I understood what it defends against

And that was all there was to it. The fact that you thought there would be more was on you. The fact that the answer didn't tell you there wasn't when you didn't make it clear you thought there was doesn't mean that your initial question wasn't answered. We can't read minds here. You need to be more clear on what you're asking.

 

1 hour ago, Fista said:

I thew the first barb? Lets see... My post. First response. My post explaining I didn't understand. First insult from Redlynn.

Nope. He said you were handed the answer and refused it. You responded with this snark against the ENTIRE COMMUNITY here:

 

Quote

Ah that famed CoH community helpfulness we hear so much about.

 

[Bopper]

Everyone needs to chill. @GM Widowercan probably go ahead and lock this thread. OP got the answer they were looking for. Now we are just diverging into pettiness over who started it. Let's all be mature and end it.