The 105; the Worst of the Bunch

[Scarlet Shocker]

I figure there's 105 different combos of MM as the game stands currently.

 

What's the worst?

 

By which I mean the least capable, the most horrible to play, the least effective? And why?

 

And why did you play it as long as you did?

Edited February 12, 2020 by Scarlet Shocker

[Recovery8]

I really really did not like Thugs/Thermal, it felt like you could not stop them from killing themselves no matter what with your primary heal being PB.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I’m pretty sure I have a few in the bottom 10.

[oldskool]

Most horrible to play:

 

Bots/Force Field.  Why?  I found it boring AF not because it's not capable. 

 

Some of the most fun I ever had on live:

 

Ninja/Storm.  Why? Chaos.

[Redlynne]

Ninja/Trick Arrow ... NEVER PLAY THIS ... unless if you're a masochist.

[Crysis]

We were discussing this a bit ago.  The bottom least favored sets at last check were Thugs, Merc’s, Demons and Necro/Trick Arrow.  Necro/TA was dead last but I can attest to what a craptastic combo was Demons/TA.

 

More here:

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/13410-trick-arrow-mastermind-picking-between-demon-and-necromancy/?do=findComment&comment=141573

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Crysis

[Scarlet Shocker]

4 hours ago, Crysis said:

We were discussing this a bit ago.  The bottom least favored sets at last check were Thugs, Merc’s, Demons and Necro/Trick Arrow.  Necro/TA was dead last but I can attest to what a craptastic combo was Demons/TA.

 

More here:

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/13410-trick-arrow-mastermind-picking-between-demon-and-necromancy/?do=findComment&comment=141573

 

I have a Mercs/TA character who I'm currently levelling and it's pretty ok. It will never be a "Solo all the things" type character but it's an excellent support toon, laying down ok damage and some excellent crowd control. On live I had a Fire/TA troller who was very effective and I'm not seeing this one as hugely different.

 

Thus far!

[Gulbasaur]

13 hours ago, oldskool said:

Ninja/Storm.  Why? Chaos.

That actually makes me want to play it. Why? Chaos. 

 

Storm's a bit of a late-bloomer, but good golly is it excellent at doing what it does. The knockdown and slow in Freezing Rain is so powerful it's almost a hold. Summon a happy little cloud and gently slot tornado for knockdown and you've got a very strong control set hidden in the support category. The -res in Freezing Rain helps you chomp through enemies very quickly and the whole set responds hugely to recharge. 

 

Chaos is fun.

[Scarlet Shocker]

I had not realized until very recently that Freezing Rain is exactly the same as Sleet but you get it considerably sooner. On my Demons/Cold, it's an excellent tool for mitigating the damage. Send the demons in and then plaster Sleet down and nobody can fight them. I see Storm in a similar vein with a good pet buff and a few "don't come anywhere near me" powers.

[Crysis]

1 hour ago, Gulbasaur said:

That actually makes me want to play it. Why? Chaos. 

 

Storm's a bit of a late-bloomer, but good golly is it excellent at doing what it does. The knockdown and slow in Freezing Rain is so powerful it's almost a hold. Summon a happy little cloud and gently slot tornado for knockdown and you've got a very strong control set hidden in the support category. The -res in Freezing Rain helps you chomp through enemies very quickly and the whole set responds hugely to recharge. 

 

Chaos is fun.

Thugs/Storm with Burnout creates Double Gang War, Lightning Storm.

 

Theres a few threads on it.  TOTAL Chaos.

[TheSpiritFox]

If you want one that isn't bottom of the bunch power wise but is an absolute NIGHTMARE to play, Beast/Kin. Kin is a very active set, Beast is a set that you need an attack rotation on. Pet management plus kin rotations plus beast attack rotations is a match made in hell. 

 

It's worse than scrapperlock. There are always two things you should be doing every second of every encounter. 

Edited February 13, 2020 by TheSpiritFox

[Talionis]

I think it’s Ninja Trick Arrow.   
 

Mercenaries got slightly better with the new AI adjustment and is a little easier to keep at range.  Ninja has high damage but almost no mitigation.  Ninja can only really be effective with Time as a secondary and once it has power boost.  That combination does provide enough protection.  Force field can keep ninjas alive but doesn’t help Ninjas do more damage and you’ll still need a heal from a pool.  
 

Trick Arrow is a debuff only set.  Trick Arrow has some decent control powers and as such really can shine as a Controller secondary but on its own with out A Controller primary it doesn’t have enough Control to be good mitigation. Masterminds need to be able to protect their minions or they won’t be able to survive any of the tougher material.  
 

The only reason that Ninja Trick Arrow is more popular than Necro Trick Arrow and Demon Trick Arrow is for theme and redraw. MechanicallyNinja Trick Arrow is a bad combination on top of probably being the worst of both the primaries and secondaries.  

[Crysis]

@Talionis, weren’t you the one trying to go for the “unicorn” of Necro/TA?  Did you?  How’s it going?

[Avoca]

On 2/12/2020 at 10:35 AM, Recovery8 said:

I really really did not like Thugs/Thermal, it felt like you could not stop them from killing themselves no matter what with your primary heal being PB.

Ouch! This hurts! Recently, i've been in love with my Thugs/Thermal! I created it back in August. A few weeks ago I hit 50 with it. Since then I've been binging for incarnates. I wanted thugs for Gang War. It's because of Gang War that I have Burnout and Hasten. I can get 2 Gang Wars out at once with a fast 3 slot recharge combined with hasten and incarnates for even faster recharge. [Ageless Core Epiphany] (Lore) + The Alpha + The IO Set Bonus for Rech.  My goal is to keep as many Gang War out as possible.

 

The reason I chose Thermal because I already had an Emp (which is phenomenal with Beast Mastery btw). I chose Thermal over Cold because at least Thermal has a heal! but even better is has two heals! Granted the heal numbers aren't that great. It's tolerable with IO bonus. Even the Alpha Incarnate helps heals. I like the shields that give good /decent 23% res buff. I like the cheap verison of fortitude that is Forge. The rez I use alot at 3 slot rech. I don't think "Melt Armor" is that effective, it has slow rech, can miss.. Heat Exhaustion is whatever.

 

So yeah, Thug/Thermal aint bad. Pets have semi support to stay alive and teammates also get a buff or two out of it.

[Zeraphia]

I'd rate the following as "terrible" combinations (when I say this, it doesn't mean that it can literally do nothing or can't be good in some aspect, it just means that it is in general inferior to even mediocre combinations!):

 

1. Petless... Do I really have to explain this?

2. Mercenaries/Trick... Same as the above, but these minions are even worse lol! 

3. Beast/Trick... Not a whole lot of damage, the minions don't survive and this soft control secondary does not seem to provide anything that these minions truly need...

 

I'd rate the next sets as "bad":

3. Mercenaries/Empathy... Not quite as bad as Trick because at least empathy allows you to heal your pets but Empathy is unfortunately in my and most's opinions just too single-focused (single target heal, single target fortitude, etc.) it can be played and made decent but there are definitely much better combinations.

4. Beast/Empathy... Same as the above beasts are just slightly better!

5. Ninjas/Empathy... Not the worst possible but definitely there are better, empathy again as discussed early is very single-target focused buffing and healing so I feel this is a wasted opportunity to really get the most out of Ninjas which they really need extra survival. 

6. Mercs/Everything (except time nature and dark)... They're just bad. Please. Do not pick this.

7. Everything else/Trick... it's just not that beneficial for a mastermind, there are ways to "make it work" but it is unfortunately an under-performer.

8. Beasts/Everything (except time nature and dark)... not as bad as mercs but they're the 2nd lowest on the tier they have terrible defenses, their damage isn't enough to make up for it either, and they have nothing going for them...

 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by 33053222

[Scarlet Shocker]

1 hour ago, 33053222 said:

I'd rate the following as "terrible" combinations (when I say this, it doesn't mean that it can literally do nothing or can't be good in some aspect, it just means that it is in general inferior to even mediocre combinations!):

 

1. Petless... Do I really have to explain this?

2. Mercenaries/Trick... Same as the above, but these minions are even worse lol! 

3. Beast/Trick... Not a whole lot of damage, the minions don't survive and this soft control secondary does not seem to provide anything that these minions truly need...

 

I'd rate the next sets as "bad":

3. Mercenaries/Empathy... Not quite as bad as Trick because at least empathy allows you to heal your pets but Empathy is unfortunately in my and most's opinions just too single-focused (single target heal, single target fortitude, etc.) it can be played and made decent but there are definitely much better combinations.

4. Beast/Empathy... Same as the above beasts are just slightly better!

5. Ninjas/Empathy... Not the worst possible but definitely there are better, empathy again as discussed early is very single-target focused buffing and healing so I feel this is a wasted opportunity to really get the most out of Ninjas which they really need extra survival. 

6. Mercs/Everything (except time nature and dark)... They're just bad. Please. Do not pick this.

7. Everything else/Trick... it's just not that beneficial for a mastermind, there are ways to "make it work" but it is unfortunately an under-performer.

Mercenaries/Everything... They're just awful, if you can use ANY other primary (thugs is similar slightly thematically in looks and MUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH better) please do. 

 

 

Don't hold back, say what you really think! We can handle it 😉

 

I've never understood Petless MMs - deliberately gimping your character seems to be deliberately stupid.

[TheSpiritFox]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Don't hold back, say what you really think! We can handle it 😉

 

I've never understood Petless MMs - deliberately gimping your character seems to be deliberately stupid.

It's generally some weird roleplay thing. I don't get roleplayers either soooooo...

[MTeague]

My Beast/Empathy ("Dog Mom") would probably be considered .... very sub-optimal.

 

Esp since in addition to the pets and the empath buffs, I've worked in Kick AND Boxing AND Crosspunch instead of the direct attacks in Beast Mastery.

But Kick/Boxing/Crosspunch cost FAR less then the Beast direct attacks and let me charge right in with my doggos and kittehs and go Tankermind.

And they actually get.... pretty decent... if you take all three.

 

It went from being a "lol, what the hell I'll try it" experiment to a pretty fun character. 

[MTeague]

12 hours ago, 33053222 said:

6. Mercs/Everything (except time nature and dark)... They're just bad. Please. Do not pick this.

That's it.  I'm rolling a Praetorian Mercs/Rad tomorrow.

[Scarlet Shocker]

I don't think a Mercs/Rad would be so horrible. If they stay alive long enough you could kill most tough enemies

 

[tremor3258]

On 2/12/2020 at 9:17 PM, Redlynne said:

Ninja/Trick Arrow ... NEVER PLAY THIS ... unless if you're a masochist.

 

Having messed with one - this is one of the few characters I feel a need to yell at the henchmen on screen ("Set the Oil Slick on fire!  Rain of fire! DO IT!") I like it but it's definitely better in a group than solo where you can take some pressure off hench survivability and still apply a lot of pretty excellent debuffs. 

 

Definitely one of the secondaries where 'Aid Other' from medicine pool comes into its own, though.

[siolfir]

19 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Don't hold back, say what you really think! We can handle it 😉

 

I've never understood Petless MMs - deliberately gimping your character seems to be deliberately stupid.

Petless Demons I could at least understand that they wanted the whip. My Demon Summoning MMs were the first ones that I frequently used the attacks on; usually I was better off micromanaging the pets and using my secondary over the (rather bad) attacks in the primary.

 

Also, if you're going with Burnout, Hell on Earth > Gang War IMO. Sure it's fewer pets, but they're way too cute.

[SaintD]

On 2/13/2020 at 11:17 AM, Redlynne said:

Ninja/Trick Arrow ... NEVER PLAY THIS ... unless if you're a masochist.

Every day Redlynne scrolls past an entire page of 50'ed Ninja/TA masterminds to reach her mains.....

[Dr Causality]

On 2/16/2020 at 11:20 AM, 33053222 said:

I'd rate the following as "terrible" combinations (when I say this, it doesn't mean that it can literally do nothing or can't be good in some aspect, it just means that it is in general inferior to even mediocre combinations!):

 

1. Petless... Do I really have to explain this?

2. Mercenaries/Trick... Same as the above, but these minions are even worse lol! 

3. Beast/Trick... Not a whole lot of damage, the minions don't survive and this soft control secondary does not seem to provide anything that these minions truly need...

Thanks for calling out the Petless.    That's hands down the worst and wasn't mentioned yet.    

 

/Trick also seems like the weakest 2ndary.    But I'm confused by Mercs and Beast getting rated as worse than Ninjas.  

 

 

Ninjas - Absolutely Zero Resistance, HP bonuses, No heals or Regen Buffs and disappointing 6% Defense except for Jounin.   And they prefer melee making them by far the fragilest of the Pets.  *Edit* wanted to add that Genin and Oni don't have attacks that work well with their procs, so only Jounin are worth procing for extra dmg.    Also, Ninjas don't have a power that can let you slot Mule for the pet uniques like Gang War, Hell on Earth, Soul Extraction.    Ninjas basically come up short on everything except cool factor.   But even coolness themes turn against them, as it's particularly cruel that thematically they pair well with Trick Arrow....they most underperforming 2ndary.

 

Genin                               Def -   6% AOE/Ranged/ Melee Defense

Jounin                              Def - 13% AOE/Ranged/ Melee Defense

Oni                                   Def -   6% AOE/Ranged/ Melee Defense

 

 

Whereas,

 

Beast -   No ranged attacks can be an issue, but they have Resistance, Def, self-heals, Dire gets an HP buff etc.

 

Howlers                           Def - 11% AOE/Ranged/ Melee Defense

                                        Res - 18% Smash/Lethal/Cold

 

Lions / Dire Wolf             Def - 12% AOE/Ranged/ Melee Defense

                                        Res - 29% Smash/Lethal/Cold

 

 

 

 

Mercs   - No Defense, but they have Resistance and a Medic with heals.  Dmg isn't great on it's own but they take lots of procs, letting them close the gap.  Recent ranged AI update should  open up solid strategic play as they are all ranged attacks.

 

Soldiers                          Res - 25% Smash/Lethal

Spec Ops                        Res - 26% Smash/Lethal

Commando                    Res - 26% Smash/Lethal

                                       

 

 

                 

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Dr Causality

[THEDarkTyger]

On 2/12/2020 at 12:35 PM, Recovery8 said:

I really really did not like Thugs/Thermal, it felt like you could not stop them from killing themselves no matter what with your primary heal being PB.

I imagine it'll be a lot easier now with the most recent update to pet behaviors. Really, though, a lot of sets' heals are PB.... Including one that's considered one of the strongest secondaries.