Focused Feedback: New IO Sets (Build 4)

[The Curator]

4 minutes ago, firelightx said:

If it's worth anything... I might actually recommend range instead of endreduc in that one?  Extra range on buffs is a quality of life thing at best, but likely more impactful than endreduc would be, considering their low cost already

Uh, sure? I would like to get more feedback on this before changing the set yet again.

• Preemptive Optimization
  1. Accuracy / Recharge
  2. Endurance Modification / Endurance Reduction
  3. Endurance Modification / Recharge
  4. Endurance Modification / Accuracy / Range
  5. Endurance Modification / Accuracy / Recharge
  6. Endurance Modification / Recharge / Range
• Post-ED: 68.9% Accuracy, 26.5% Endurance Reduction, 91.78% Recharge, 97.49% Endurance Modification, 25.6% Range.

[firelightx]

Totally fair!  Just spitballing ideas 🙂

[Bopper]

@oedipus_tex can you add to your analysis from when you justified Accuracy over Range? Can you include which powers have a need for endurance cost reduction? The trade off for Range over Endurance Reduction is being discussed and I know you've looked at this closely already. Thanks

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Bopper

[Novacat]

Is there anything that needs 60%+ accuracy bonus AND the accuracy bonuses from IO sets AND the acc or to-hit bonuses from powers like tactics and other buffs?

I know plenty of powers that can use a ton of +range just to match the rangebands of the rest of their own sets,... but other than Heart of Darkness (60%) which is entirely unrelated to EndMod...

Just the two triple-pieces (Acc/Endmod/Endredux and Acc/endmod/recharge) would already be enough to turn a 75% power into 114.8% before any other buffs or bonuses anywhere which you're bound to get a few of.

With Range/Recharge at the top instead, that would put those 70ft powers back where they belong. Some 60% bases like ESD Arrow on Blasters would probably still not reach 100% anyways from the current Preemptive Optimization since they only get to 104% with a triple and two doubles, so it's overkill on others and still not enough for those.

[Vanden]

16 minutes ago, Novacat said:

Is there anything that needs 60%+ accuracy bonus AND the accuracy bonuses from IO sets AND the acc or to-hit bonuses from powers like tactics and other buffs?

To hit a +3 enemy 95% of the time you need 98% accuracy enhancement, and for a +4 you need 143% accuracy enhancement, and that for powers without accuracy penalties. So... yeah, that stuff has use.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Vanden

[Bopper]

8 minutes ago, Vanden said:

To hit a +3 enemy 95% of the time you need 98% accuracy enhancement, and for a +4 you need 143% accuracy enhancement, and that for powers without accuracy penalties. So... yeah, that stuff has use.

It certainly does, and Oedipus Tex already showed the justification for sets needing accuracy. At this point I think the only debatable thing is the amount of endurance reduction. But looking at sets like Electric Control, I think the end redux is preferred.

[oedipus_tex]

Further down in this post is the table from the last thread with the damage powers removed, since we are talking about a non-damage IO set (yes you can still slot it, in damage powers but you won't be putting more than 3 slots).

 

End Redux is a mildy useful addition to some of these powers. In some cases it makes a power provide more endurance than it costs to cast (e.g. Chrono Shift.)

 

I couldn't add a column, so I a put a * next to and bolded each power that accepts Range enhancements.  Looking at that list, I think End Redux is generally more applicable than Range. 

 

 

POWER	NEEDS ACCURACY	NEEDS RECHARGE	NEEDS DAMAGE	END MOD IS A MAIN FEATURE
Conductive Aura	X			X
Heat Loss*	X	X		X
Recovery Aura		X		X
Transference*	X	X		~ (restores enough that many dont slot)
Speed Boost*				(usually slotted with 1 end mod SO)
Accelerate Metabolism		X		X
Lifegiving Spores*				~
Heat Exhaustion*	X	X
Chrono Shift		X		X
Power Sink		X		X
Drain Psyche	X	X		(never slotted for end mod)
Energy Drain, Energy Absorption		X		X
Painbringer, * Adrenaline Boost		X		~
Stamina				Rarely slotted with endurance mod sets, but be aware that any procs affecting the caster can be slotted here by any character and may affect the game's overall meta.
Unstoppable (and other T9 armors)		~
Dark Consumption	X	~	X	X
Consume	X		~	X
Quick Recovery				X

 

 

 

Regarding the final values for the set, its helpful to remember End Mod powers are currently almost never slotted with full sets. They are almost always frankenslotted just for the specific things they need. Generally this is:

• End Mod
• Recharge 
• Accuracy (for the powers that need it, worthless on the ones that don't)

 

Here's how Conductive Aura looks in a typical final Electric Control build that chases End Mod in the alpha slot as well (note the 33% Recharge is coming from the Alpha slot)

 

 

 

The number of non-damaging End Mod powers that need Accuracy is actually small--Transference, Consume, Heat Loss, Conductive Aura, and the new Shock power in Electric Affinity. Conductive Aura does not need Recharge being the only End Mod toggle, but all others do.

[Novacat]

ESD's technically non-damage (doesn't slot it and only damages freak/bot types) as well. It would tick Needs Range, Needs Accuracy, and EndMod is a main feature.

While it has no -recovery component to stall drain on its own it does pack a -55% base drain, higher than either Short Circuit or Power Sink's (though again without a -recovery component that's of questionable usage)

[oedipus_tex]

10 minutes ago, Novacat said:

ESD's technically non-damage (doesn't slot it and only damages freak/bot types) as well. It would tick Needs Range, Needs Accuracy, and EndMod is a main feature.

While it has no -recovery component to stall drain on its own it does pack a -55% base drain, higher than either Short Circuit or Power Sink's (though again without a -recovery component that's of questionable usage)

 

 

Thanks for the reminder. I honestly forgot ESD Arrow existed. 🙂

 

I would say that ESD Arrow is not a "End Mod as main feature" power 90% of the time. Trick Arrow can't generate enough follow-up -Endurance or Recovery to make the End Drain worthwhile, so ESD Arrow is most often slotted as a Hold. You have your oddball Elec/Trick Arrow Defenders, your players who took Power Sink, and... has anyone actually seen Elec/Trick Arrow Controller before? 🙂

Edited March 8, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Mikewho]

I’m still really not impressed with Artillery. It needs something much more substantial to make up for having no recharge. The other sets are mostly fine.

[AlienMafia]

20 minutes ago, Mikewho said:

I’m still really not impressed with Artillery. It needs something much more substantial to make up for having no recharge. The other sets are mostly fine.

Agreed. The initial (after first nerf to 4 and 5 piece bonus) was amazing and not overpowered but I'm caring less and less to ALL of these new sets. They dont fill the need in these categories for me.

[AlienMafia]

5 minutes ago, AlienMafia said:

6 slots for a pewny little 1.5 range defense?!?! As much as I Extremely appreciate range defense on a targeted AoE set, this just hurts :). Gladiators Armor (granted it is a PvP set but in today's game PvP set and normal set are basically the same to majority) set has 2.5% ranged defense for 6 slots

Oh oh nvm. I mis read the 6 piece

 

To add though too is bombardment is just garbage now to me

[Bopper]

30 minutes ago, Mikewho said:

I’m still really not impressed with Artillery. It needs something much more substantial to make up for having no recharge. The other sets are mostly fine.

It's an uncommon set that adds up to over 4% range defense and good all around enhancement numbers. It needs no change.

 

4 minutes ago, AlienMafia said:

Oh oh nvm. I mis read the 6 piece

 

To add though too is bombardment is just garbage now to me

Far from garbage. It has great overall enhancement values, a solid recharge bonus, a proc and a top notch EN resist which is rare.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Bopper

[AlienMafia]

I dont see myself using bombardment at all without the AoE def. If I'm building a toon that need recharge, there are so many other options and resist is not really a desire for most builds other than tanks/brutes in which case hardly ever have a targeted AoE power.

 

But this is why I say, to me, this set is just another one to sell cause 99% of the time there is something better. Doesnt compete to what already exists

Edited March 9, 2020 by AlienMafia

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, AlienMafia said:

I dont see myself using bombardment at all without the AoE def. If I'm building a toon that need recharge, there are so many other options and resist is not really a desire for most builds other than tanks/brutes in which case hardly ever have a targeted AoE power.

 

But this is why I say, to me, this set is just another one to sell cause 99% of the time there is something better.

There is a plethora of options for AoE defense. Aegis, Winter sets, etc. There aren't many options for EN resist. 

 

As for your build goals, maybe Bombardment isn't for you. But the point isn't to make a set that is to be perfect for everyone, that's where imbalance comes in. The option was between AoE def and EN resist, and the argument for EN resist won out mostly for those reasons. If you can make a substantive argument for AoE defense, feel free. This is the forum for that discussion. But please quantify it. 

 

As of now, we have numerous options for TAoE. You have Positron that would be favored by proc builds, you have Bombardment which gives great all around values, Artillery that will interest the cone/range def characters. Then you also have ATOs, Ragnorak and Winter Set if those other options aren't satisfactory. 

[DR_Mechano]

9 hours ago, AlienMafia said:

I dont see myself using bombardment at all without the AoE def. If I'm building a toon that need recharge, there are so many other options and resist is not really a desire for most builds other than tanks/brutes in which case hardly ever have a targeted AoE power.

 

But this is why I say, to me, this set is just another one to sell cause 99% of the time there is something better. Doesnt compete to what already exists

AoE defense is VERY easy to get. 5 slotting Aegis gives you about 6.5% AoE defense. 6 slotting one of the winter sets gives you 7.5% AoE defense (can't remember which one specifically it is but it has +5% AoE defense/2.5% fire Defense as it's 5 piece bonus and +5% Fire def/+2.5% AoE defense as its 6 slot) so 1 5 slot of Aegis, 1 6 slot of that Winter IO and slapping in both the +def res uniques gives you 3%+3%+6.5%+7.5% = 20% defense just from that alone.

 

If you've taken Weave, Combat Jumping/Hover and Maneuvers (which you should do for the LotG: +Global recharge proc if nothing else) with minimal slotting (LotG unqiue, 1 def set IO, 1 def/end set io of the same set for the 2 slot bonuses or if you don't care about the bonuses or end redux 2 def set ios). On a blaster that is 11.6% defense from those alone.

 

Combine the two sets of things and you have 31.6% AoE defense and that's if you have no other +def options and makes 12.8% with the Agility Paragon incarnate (if you're really going balls deep for recharge bonuses) so 33.4% defense with that. 1 more 5 slot of Aegis puts you at 40% AoE defense plus there are a plethora of other options.

 

Meanwhile there are VERY few E/N resist bonuses and is actually one of the harder resist to build for yet energy is far more common than fire/cold in PvE.

Edited March 9, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[Mikewho]

11 hours ago, Bopper said:

It's an uncommon set that adds up to over 4% range defense and good all around enhancement numbers. It needs no change.

It's got around 0.3-0.4% more ranged defense than a typical 6th ranged def set bonus, and only does so by taking up an extra set bonus slot. That's definitely not worth having no recharge in my opinion. I would guess most people will just take a set with recharge instead and get their ranged defense elsewhere. That's what I plan to do, since there are much better options available.

[Coyote]

3 minutes ago, Mikewho said:

It's got around 0.3-0.4% more ranged defense than a typical 6th ranged def set bonus, and only does so by taking up an extra set bonus slot. That's definitely not worth having no recharge in my opinion. I would guess most people will just take a set with recharge instead and get their ranged defense elsewhere. That's what I plan to do, since there are much better options available.

 

Well, your argument is basically that any set without a Recharge bonus is DOA.

While there is truth to that for many builds, there are other builds that may prioritize defense, or can get enough global Recharge in other sets.

It's not the best set that it could be, but right now there are no good sources of +Ranged Defense in TAoE sets (other than unique sets), and this fills that hole, while there are TAoE sets with Recharge bonus.

This set individually would be stronger with a Recharge bonus. But the overall options in TAoE sets are improved by giving a Ranged Defense option.

[Bopper]

9 minutes ago, Mikewho said:

It's got around 0.3-0.4% more ranged defense than a typical 6th ranged def set bonus, and only does so by taking up an extra set bonus slot. That's definitely not worth having no recharge in my opinion. I would guess most people will just take a set with recharge instead and get their ranged defense elsewhere. That's what I plan to do, since there are much better options available.

+0.9375

 

And you are welcome to use one of the other sets. That's the point of having options. 

[Mikewho]

8 minutes ago, Bopper said:

+0.9375

 

And you are welcome to use one of the other sets. That's the point of having options. 

I'm comparing with the 3.75 we often see. And of course I can use other sets. The point is I really want this set to be compelling. I love getting new sets; I want them to be awesome 🙂

[Bopper]

12 minutes ago, Mikewho said:

I'm comparing with the 3.75 we often see. And of course I can use other sets. The point is I really want this set to be compelling. I love getting new sets; I want them to be awesome 🙂

Everyone does,and all these sets are awesome with each one bringing different flavor. 

 

As for 3.75% range defense we typically see, it only shows up in 4 non-ATO sets: a Pet Damage, a Sniper, a Heal, and a Hold. Among the ranged sets (Range Damage and TAoE Damage), currently only Thunderstrike offers ranged defense, and Artillery will do more than Thunderstrike. Offering up 4.0625 Range defense and 3.4375% EN defense.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Bopper

[Mikewho]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Everyone does,and all these sets are awesome with each one bringing different flavor. 

 

As for 3.75% range defense we typically see, it only shows up in 4 non-ATO sets: a Pet Damage, a Sniper, a Heal, and a Hold. Among the ranged sets (Range Damage and TAoE Damage), currently only Thunderstrike offers ranged defense, and Artillery will do more than Thunderstrike. Offering up 4.0625 Range defense and 3.4375% EN defense.

Mako's Bite and Cloud Senses

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Mikewho said:

Mako's Bite and Cloud Senses

You're right, I overlooked Mako, and Cloud Senses didnt show the 3.75% on the webpage I used. 

So there is one Melee, one pet damage, one sniper, one heal (unique), one hold, and one accurate to hit buff.

 

That's not many options for a range character. And Artillery still offers more range defense (+0.3) and more EN defense (+1.65). But again, you're welcome to chase the bonuses in other sets. This one doesn't need tweaks. 

[The Curator]

20 hours ago, Mystic Fortune said:

Did we really need to change it so the Power Transfer proc doesn't fire off multiple times in AoEs? What harm was that really causing?

 

The original AOE Chance for Heal Self proc (Call of the Sandman) had only a 10% chance to trigger. Slotting it in an AOE that hit 16 enemies meant you had 16 individual 1/10 chances to be healed. Triggering multiple heals from a single power activation was rare.

 

When Issue 24 introduced the Procs-Per-Minute system, Call of the Sandman was set to 2 PPM. Because of how PPM works, that means if your AOE takes 30 seconds to recharge, you'll get a 90% chance to hit on every target, making multiple heals extremely likely. This is way too powerful for a single proc. This had not been noticed until now because Call of the Sandman is not a popular set, but Power Transfer brought the problem to light.

 

On the next patch, both Power Transfer and Call of the Sandman will be changed to 3 PPM, but will not stack on the same power tick.

[Bopper]

Does it still need to be unique with this new limitation @The Curator