Regen rework/ideas.

[Gauntlet_Prime]

Let me start of with this:  I am just stream-of-thought-ing this.  If you like current Regen or WP please understand that I am not here to change your beloved sets.  I am just trying to get a discussion going about the ideas behind the sets.

 

I think the idea of a set wholly based on just regeneration is obviously not going to work.  For now the set that does offer the most feeling of constantly healing at an accelerated rate is willpower.  Currently, actual Regen feels like you pretend a defender is with you and you click heals.  It works but is subject to horrendous effects if -recharge enters the field (which is weird because you would thing -regen would be Regen bane).  What I was thinking was what if Regen became a new kind of defensive set.  What if we made it absorb shield based similar to how it functions on sentinels but went at it full force.  We could make it the set that focuses on having synergistic power with the idea of ignoring the pain coming in with absorbs and having regeneration firing off under the absorbs to heal you back up after alphas.  I'll break down what I had in mind.  Understand I am not saying this is a set that is ready to go but that this is just an idea for generating conversation.

 

• T1: Fast Healing: Same as on live.  Maybe with a moderate resist to -recharge as well.
• T2: Reconstruction: Toggle +regen and res toxic.  This should be a pretty substantial amount of +regen as I don't intend to have other non-stop (fire and forget, like toggles and autos) regeneration in the set.
• T3: Quick Recovery: Same as live but with res to recovery debuffs.
• T4: Dull Pain: Click, with the same recharge as Dull Pain but instead of a heal it is a hefty absorb shield.  You pop it to give you regeneration a chance to catch up if something hits the fan.  The HP boost in DP would slightly boost regeneration anyways but perhaps could be replaced with a +regen instead for thematic reasons.
• T5: Integration: This is similar to live for the status protection but has no +regen on it.  Instead it would offer a good absorb shield that regenerated.  Lets say 40% of max HP and regenerates 5% of max HP per second.  (I pulled those numbers from thin air and I have no idea if those are insane numbers.)
• T6: Resiliance: Same as on live but with a passive absorb that is very small.  I was thinking only maybe 10-15 points at level 50.  This would make it so you just hack off that much damage off of every damage tick.  Small things are easier to ignore.  Large hits still come through hard.
• T7: Instant Healing: Just like live.  This is the other end of Dull Pain.  If DP block the pain than this heals it.  It is right in the name.  I don't think this needs to be up on every fight but it should be a decent cooldown.  Maybe 2-3 minutes.  It should not be your "Oh S#!t!" button but rather a means to offset alphas in conjunction with DP.
• T8: Revive: I like how this functions on sentinels if only because it does more than a fancy wakie does.  Having this be a long-cooldown high-yield effect for either a great self rez or a large absorb or heal give the power some great flexibility.
• T9: Moment of Glory:  I think this is already pretty great.  Thematically I might change this from +res to just a huge absorb shield though.

 

The idea here is that you could build this set for +HP and +regen with IOs and work on it from that angle.  You could go +res to ignore more of the pain coming in to an extent.  You could try and cap some defenses and make the absorbs more effective.  I think it could be a unique and interesting set that doesn't feel nearly as dated as it is.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Gauntlet_Prime

[Leogunner]

I'm not a fan of only because Bio already does the "lots of absorb shield" game so having Regen focus on that isn't really unique like you say it is. 

 

Not saying it can't have +absorb (toss a max 25% self regenerating at 5%/3sec on Integration) but if I were suggesting unique angles for Regen, I'd make it the "debuff immune" set. Give its passive powers a small amount of res to standard debuffs (-movement, -rech, -Regen, -def and -tohit) and give their click powers a stronger stackable amount of the same debuff resistance so those IOs or team buffs stick harder. Concept wise, it's like building callouses to harm after recovering. Overall keeping the same power layout but adding the debuff resists layers on top. 

[Uun]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet_Prime said:

which is weird because you would thing -regen would be Regen bane

Much of Regen's +regen is unresistable.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

I'm not a fan of only because Bio already does the "lots of absorb shield" game so having Regen focus on that isn't really unique like you say it is. 

 

Not saying it can't have +absorb (toss a max 25% self regenerating at 5%/3sec on Integration) but if I were suggesting unique angles for Regen, I'd make it the "debuff immune" set. Give its passive powers a small amount of res to standard debuffs (-movement, -rech, -Regen, -def and -tohit) and give their click powers a stronger stackable amount of the same debuff resistance so those IOs or team buffs stick harder. Concept wise, it's like building callouses to harm after recovering. Overall keeping the same power layout but adding the debuff resists layers on top. 

I agree that what Regen really, truly needs if we were only allowed "1 thing" is to allow you to fight off debuffs. If it had a ton of Debuff Resists that stacked up per power you could "feel" like (Wolverine) in that you constantly are at peak performance both Health and Status-wise.

[Auroxis]

I agree that Absorb treads too much into Bio territory. Also, a few of your suggestions break the cottage rule.

 

Buffing powers shouldn't involve removing existing functionality, but rather adding upon them or buffing their numbers.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Auroxis

[Leogunner]

10 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I agree that what Regen really, truly needs if we were only allowed "1 thing" is to allow you to fight off debuffs. If it had a ton of Debuff Resists that stacked up per power you could "feel" like (Wolverine) in that you constantly are at peak performance both Health and Status-wise.

I think the idea is overall easy to balance too since it's not direct survival mitigation but leans more on the side of being utility, the only think which Regen has being a self rez. 

 

Ultimately, it could make Regen the strongest when IOed out fully or even when not, benefit from team buffs more since each point of buff becomes more valuable when it can't be so easily removed. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Leogunner

[Gauntlet_Prime]

2 hours ago, Uun said:

Much of Regen's +regen is unresistable.

Yes I know, I am saying thematically you would think that halting someones healing would be the bane of someone who survives by healing fast.

 

2 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I'm not a fan of only because Bio already does the "lots of absorb shield" game so having Regen focus on that isn't really unique like you say it is. 

 

Not saying it can't have +absorb (toss a max 25% self regenerating at 5%/3sec on Integration) but if I were suggesting unique angles for Regen, I'd make it the "debuff immune" set. Give its passive powers a small amount of res to standard debuffs (-movement, -rech, -Regen, -def and -tohit) and give their click powers a stronger stackable amount of the same debuff resistance so those IOs or team buffs stick harder. Concept wise, it's like building callouses to harm after recovering. Overall keeping the same power layout but adding the debuff resists layers on top. 

In regards to this:  I dunno, bio sorta does everything.  The absorb mechanic is hardly fresh or unique to bio as Rad also does it.  I just think it could be utilized well by Regen to help slow incoming damage to allow your healing to take place.  I doo 100% agree that the lack of debuff resists is pretty glaring in the set as a whole. 

[Sarrate]

8 hours ago, Uun said:

Much of Regen's +regen is unresistable.

Actually, much of Regen's +regen is unenhanceable [1]. All of it is resistible and thus fully affected by regen debuffs.

 

[1] Fast Healing: 75% fully enhanceable

Integration: 50% enhanceable, 100% unenhanceable

Instant Healing: 200% enhanceable, 600% unenhanceable

 

8 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I'm not a fan of only because Bio already does the "lots of absorb shield" game so having Regen focus on that isn't really unique like you say it is. 

I'd argue that Bio's gimmick is Adaption, not absorbs. The only other comparable sets are Stone Armor (normal and fully defense) and Kheldians (a whole AT, not a powerset). Bio only has two powers that give absorbs (Ablative Carapace and Parasitic Aura). If that is enough to make absorb it's gimmick, then one could argue defense is Invuln's gimmick because of Invincibility and Tough Hide. :P

 

Honestly, Bio has a little bit of everything (adaption, +max hp, +regen, +recovery, +defense, +resist, +absorb, +dmg, damage aura, -regen, -dmg) to really say any one defensive stat is its thing. I'm going to go out on a limb and say one reason you're singling out absorb is because it's new and not as widely utilized. If absorbs were available from the get go, I think Bio's absorbs would just be another layer rather than a defining feature.

[Uun]

1 hour ago, Sarrate said:

Actually, much of Regen's +regen is unenhanceable [1]. All of it is resistible and thus fully affected by regen debuffs.

 

[1] Fast Healing: 75% fully enhanceable

Integration: 50% enhanceable, 100% unenhanceable

Instant Healing: 200% enhanceable, 600% unenhanceable

I knew about the unenhanceable, but City of Data shows unresistable as well. I guess this is an error.

[Leo_G]

1 hour ago, Sarrate said:

I'd argue that Bio's gimmick is Adaption, not absorbs. The only other comparable sets are Stone Armor (normal and fully defense) and Kheldians (a whole AT, not a powerset). Bio only has two powers that give absorbs (Ablative Carapace and Parasitic Aura). If that is enough to make absorb it's gimmick, then one could argue defense is Invuln's gimmick because of Invincibility and Tough Hide. 😛

 

Honestly, Bio has a little bit of everything (adaption, +max hp, +regen, +recovery, +defense, +resist, +absorb, +dmg, damage aura, -regen, -dmg) to really say any one defensive stat is its thing. I'm going to go out on a limb and say one reason you're singling out absorb is because it's new and not as widely utilized. If absorbs were available from the get go, I think Bio's absorbs would just be another layer rather than a defining feature.

You're right but I didn't say "gimmick", I was just talking about the OP's train of thought regarding the sentence "What I was thinking was what if Regen became a new kind of defensive set".  I think Bio takes this premise already.

 

And I'm not against adding some +absorb to the set, I just don't think that should be its gig (putting it in Integration would be a good spot since that power is very meh...but 40% shield that regens at 5% per second is a bit much tho....that's over 100pts of absorb per sec ontop of your regen)  Another thing I like about Regen are its clicks and quite a few folks want to alter (or realter, as the case may be) to make the set more passive.  The hills and valley feel of the set is also why I enjoy it.

 

The set the OP outlines, while nifty sounding, is very different from the current Regen.

 

That all being said, I'm only stating what *I* want for the regen set.  I've come out before saying that my personal perspective of the set is that it isn't "Comic Book Wolverine Regeneration"...that's Willpower.  Regen as a CoH concept is more like "Cartoon-logic Nullification" where you can get *SPLAT*ed, show the damage, shake it off and instantly be back to normal.  I built all my Regen concepts around that and it works for them.  Just my opinion, though.

[biostem]

Here's an idea, (though in practice it may be a little too similar to absorb);  What if, for every set interval, you built up a stack of "reactive healing", and should you take damage, those stacks are consumed to provide a burst of healing, (in the form of X HP per stack).  Basically, it wouldn't absorb the damage, but quickly heal you back up, using what you've accumulated between battles.  It may not be too useful in the thick of a fight, but it'll help with those alpha strikes, (as long as you can survive the initial hit).

[Razor Cure]

One of the biggest gaps between Def and Res sets (and regen is closer to resist than def) is that a deflected attack loaded with debuffs does nothing to the Defence set. Nothing at all. That same attack, while resisted to whatever %, lands with teh full whack of debuffs (not counting the -regen resist).

A few sets get debuff resist, but it is usually against Slows, with some DefDebuff resist throw into sets with 'some' defensive toggles (WP, invul, bio). Given that Regens whole idea is to..regenerate damage super fast. giving it more protection to debuffs (or a greatly reduced duration for those debuffs) would make it different to other sets, without adding a heap of absorb to the set.

[kelika2]

Regen with Absorb effects makes me think of wounds scabbing over creating a little shield

[Gauntlet_Prime]

9 hours ago, biostem said:

Here's an idea, (though in practice it may be a little too similar to absorb);  What if, for every set interval, you built up a stack of "reactive healing", and should you take damage, those stacks are consumed to provide a burst of healing, (in the form of X HP per stack).  Basically, it wouldn't absorb the damage, but quickly heal you back up, using what you've accumulated between battles.  It may not be too useful in the thick of a fight, but it'll help with those alpha strikes, (as long as you can survive the initial hit).

I like the idea but it is a mechanic not already in the game.  I proposed the absorb mechanic because it already exists to port over.  I like the line of thinking though.  I just worry that its way of healing doesn't soften the blow at all so a big stack would be useless in an environment when you just get hit hard enough that it never gets to proc.  EX: your at 10% HP and have a few stacks that should get you back up to full but you get hit for 15% of your HP.  In this instance you just die even though you would be sitting on a lot of potential healing (admittedly a hyperbolic premise as an example).

 

It is an interesting proposal all it's own though.  A sort of reactive-healing clicky might be interesting in the set.

 

Or even an auto power that loads you up every few seconds with a non stacking buff that the next attack will trigger a small heal.  Individually it would not be big but over time would be a lot of free healing... Now you got me thinking hehe.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Gauntlet_Prime

[0th Power]

Time to post again...

 

how to fix regen

 

1. Give more -regen resist

2. Either lower recharge a bit or increase duration of instant healing or moment of glory 

3. give stalkers some +recovery in combination with fast healing

4. allow Rez to be used while alive (like sentinels)

5. Have the heals in dull pain and reconstruction fire off at the beginning of the animation, rather then towards the end. 
 

thats all 

 

(I need to save this so I can copy paste it for the next thread)

[Auroxis]

One thing that came to mind, the Preventive Medicine proc makes perfect sense as an inclusion in Regen.

[Replacement]

1. Add debuff resist every-damn-where
2. More QOL... I think quick recovery should be pushed to later in the set, keeping Integration where it is and moving their +resist passive to an earlier spot.

The resist passive is really strong, and it's a bit annoying surviving that long.

I'm a bit ashamed to admit it, but I recently grabbed quick recovery way too early (like level 8 ) thinking I'd get ahead of endurance issues... Only to immediately fall way behind on survival. That was a painful Posi.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Replacement
I hate auto-emojis

[BrandX]

Allow the heal powers to actually be enhanced.  The fact that they can't be is just dumb.

 

Next, give Resilience a small +Defense ALL so people have something else to attach to IO bonuses AND use the sets.

 

Lastly, give MoG Defense to ALL and this includes positions and Psy damage, and Psy Resist damage.  Would it really hurt to make that Moment of Glory last 30 seconds?  It's got a long recharge.

[Razor Cure]

6 hours ago, BrandX said:

Moment of Glory

ALl in the name? It is up pretty quick, I could see 20 seconds instead.

[Sarrate]

On 3/9/2020 at 5:11 PM, Uun said:

I knew about the unenhanceable, but City of Data shows unresistable as well. I guess this is an error.

Oh fascinating! I was looking at Mid's Reborn (not perfect, but more convenient and up to date), but after you said that I looked at CoD on the Wayback Machine and you're right, it lists it as unresistible. I'm pretty sure that's a mistake, though, as I remember having my regen shut down in the past.

On 3/9/2020 at 5:59 PM, Leo_G said:

You're right but I didn't say "gimmick", I was just talking about the OP's train of thought regarding the sentence "What I was thinking was what if Regen became a new kind of defensive set".  I think Bio takes this premise already.

So you didn't, sorry for putting words in your mouth.

On 3/9/2020 at 5:59 PM, Leo_G said:

And I'm not against adding some +absorb to the set, I just don't think that should be its gig (putting it in Integration would be a good spot since that power is very meh...but 40% shield that regens at 5% per second is a bit much tho....that's over 100pts of absorb per sec ontop of your regen)  Another thing I like about Regen are its clicks and quite a few folks want to alter (or realter, as the case may be) to make the set more passive.  The hills and valley feel of the set is also why I enjoy it.

I agree that Regen is click heavy and it's part of what defines its playstyle. I'd push for absorbs (or other solutions) that would try to address the problem of dying to burst damage. It's really annoying dying to damage that you could have healed but didn't because a) stuck in an animation b) reaction time c) you didn't heal because you were at X% health and didn't think you needed to d) you did heal when at X% health (and you didn't need to) now you do and it's on recharge e) you had IH up, but still died because infinite regen still doesn't solve the burst damage problem.

 

That's the real rub, it doesn't matter how fast you heal/regen, you can still get burst down if you can't first take the hit and survive.

[RufusTFirefly]

What about giving it some of the same HP scaling resist that SR gets? In comics Wolverine tends to get tougher and more determined the more damage he takes. 
 

[Troo]

As a /regen I won't say the ideas presented are great or terrible. I also wouldn't support them.

 

Making one adjustment is often better received., and easier to discuss.

 

@0th Power I like your idea but think it should proliferated more widely. Many longer activation powers should fire at the beginning or middle or closer to the beginning of the animation.

 

[Menelruin]

Can I make a minor alteration to one suggestion?  Comic book regeneration tends to place more emphasis on your BODY recovering from effects than your MIND.  Maybe give the set major resistance to all debuffs, with the exception of confusion, fear, and possibly sleep?

[0th Power]

18 hours ago, Troo said:

 

@0th Power I like your idea but think it should proliferated more widely. Many longer activation powers should fire at the beginning or middle or closer to the beginning of the animation.

I agree that more should. I think regen would benefit from this from more than any other set.   I also have no idea if this would be an easy fix, but it seems like it should.

[AgentForest]

I do like the discussion going on here, but my brain, upon first seeing this post's name, was hoping to find one thing here and did not.  So I'll include my suggestion here:

Can regen, finally, heal in smaller intervals more often?  Across all power sets?

For example, you tend to heal in chunks every second or two, but what if the powers just increased the rate at which you received single hitpoints.  Not changing the overall total of healing per second that regen stats provide, but changing the rate and frequency at which that value is added to your health bar so that it's a constant, consistent flow of health instead of a weird, staggered jolt of HP every so often.