Mastermind QoL: Issues and Improvments (PvE Specific)

[Monos King]

~From Pets & Henchmen Thread~

But as end tier material should be observed separately, let's look at the mastermind shortcomings with clarity.

 

1) Squishiness

     a) Player Health Weakness*

Prevents player from moving away from pets

     b) Pet Vulnerabilities

Allows pets to die easily regardless of context (see 2a,2b) and thus kills the Player

     c) Pet Wandering after damage

Causes Player to issue commands, resetting pet aggressiveness and permitting additional damage, or simply leaves Player open to damage

2) Pet Squishiness

     a) Inherent Resistances

Leaves pets highly vulnerable to certain types of damage

     b) Pet Health

Makes pets extremely prone to sudden death beyond Supremacy radius

Leaves pets vulnerable to burst damage death

     c) Pet Level

Leaves pets vulnerable to damage, low health, lower damage, causes various issues as expected of color cons

     d) Pet Threat Level*

Leaves pet(s) prone to immediate death from stronger enemies 

3) PvP Specific

     a) Summon Recharge Time*

Leaves Player vulnerable to damage after quick pet death

     b) Supremacy Induced Slowness

Prevents player from pursuing a moving target at all without risk of two shot, supporting traveling team; must be very near slow pets

     c) Pet Movement Speed

Prevents pets from keeping up with Player attempting to pursue or travel, prevents pets from being able to do damage to moving targets.

 

Starred (*) issues are from my perspective inherent to the balance and theme of the archetype, and were only listed for reference. I want to pitch a few possibilities to the bigger issues.

 

Increasing Pet Level  (Issues 2a,2b,2c)

This addresses 3 issues by increasing pet combat attributes accordingly. Pets at lower levels especially will die very quickly when tossed into a hoard, and should be AT LEAST Player level. They do poorly versus higher ranked enemies. Related to that,

Increasing Pet Rank (2a,2b,2c)

Increasing the t8 henchmen or others to pet rank strength would probably solve these issues, but I don't feel too safe on this one. 

Increasing Pet Benefits To Buffs (2a,1b)

What I had in mind for this was an effect similar to Support Hybrid Incarnate Power. We could raise the base resistances of pets, but that wouldnt be thematic and would probably cause problems anyhow. 

In PvP, this would be similar to a power like Tough, where protection from everything is added. For instance, in PvP giving your henchmen Thermal Radiations Plasma Shield would provide resistance to everything, or Cold Dominations Glacial Shield would offer Elusivity and/or defense to all.

Thematically? Increase Pet Movement Speed (3b,3c)

This one could be done just by doing exactly as the subtitle states, but I also think that it would be cool to see henchmen bust out a thematic travel power once the attack target or owner gets a certain distance away ( zombies emerge from ground closer to target, Mercs get out jetpack , robots fly, demons and thugs might just charge) to make up ground.

 

I would like to hear how many of these seem like legitimate issues or solutions to everyone else.

[Monos King]

And here's a specific changes thread for those interested.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by monos1

[Sovera]

Definitely my vote on removing the -level that the pets get.

[kiramon]

-pet levels would be fine if the entire game weren’t played at +2 or +3 etc to playEr level... miserable experience to just constantly revive pets, especially how much end it costs to rebuff them. 
 

 

[ScarySai]

Removing the level handicap on t1 and t2 pets would certainly have some interesting results, by itself, it would make masterminds much stronger and they are already fairly powerful when built right.

[Monos King]

They are, but as someone reminded me it can be a miserable experience being an MM while leveling and with a moderate build as a result of it.

[Dragon Crush]

4 hours ago, ScarySai said:

and they are already fairly powerful when built right.

Part of the problem is that applies to nearly any AT or set combo.  Right mix of IOs and pool powers  (even if only as mules for IOs)  can turn something that is all but unplayable leveling on SOs into something that tears through content with no problem.

[ScarySai]

4 hours ago, Dragon Crush said:

Part of the problem is that applies to nearly any AT or set combo.  Right mix of IOs and pool powers  (even if only as mules for IOs)  can turn something that is all but unplayable leveling on SOs into something that tears through content with no problem.

For something like bots or thugs mixed with something like Time or Traps though, it would just be a straight ticket to godhood. Not that it's a problem, I'd support it - but those can perform insane feats with just SOs. 

 

I just fear that they would nerf a few things to compensate for the levels being adjusted.

[Monos King]

54 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

For something like bots or thugs mixed with something like Time or Traps though, it would just be a straight ticket to godhood. Not that it's a problem, I'd support it - but those can perform insane feats with just SOs. 

 

I just fear that they would nerf a few things to compensate for the levels being adjusted.

Could you explain how? My first MM was a thugs trap, and I played it over 6 years to incarnate; it was my first street killing 50. I had the full noob experience ( I got badly beaten a lot ) and the upper tier experience (good planning, live long) but I don't see how scaling the levels of the pets would be a ticket to godhood. Obvious strong MMs like anything therm won't be affected much and non-heals won't struggle as terribly early on. Every MM is probably going to be great when maxed out anyhow, like most ATs. It's getting there.

Edited December 17, 2019 by monos1

[ScarySai]

I'm fully in support of increasing the pet level. Just saying it'll be interesting to see what would happen if they did it.

[Galaxy Brain]

Increasing the pet level is one of those nice buffs that just put a lot of sets on an even playing field imo, and removes some annoyances with say... minion frailty a bit.

[Brutal Justice]

12 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Increasing the pet level is one of those nice buffs that just put a lot of sets on an even playing field imo, and removes some annoyances with say... minion frailty a bit.

Agreed.  The top performing sets are sets with high damage t8 pets because they don’t suffer from the level gap.  It would bring all sets up and really help out those that rely on their lower tier pets for damage like zombies.  

[Soulstinger]

I don't see removing the pet -level cap breaking anything; and it certainly sounds like a (relatively) easy way to deal with several of the AT's shortcomings without over-correcting.

MM's could definitely use a boost!

[Smello]

I agree with the pet level changing. I believe Supremacy grants a +tohit bonus that was intended to compensate for the reduced levels, it could be reduced or removed.

 

There's one other thing I'd like to propose. Right now all MM builds need the res and def global IOs to make their pets survivable. The benefit of these globals is so significant that without them the mastermind is just terrible, and working them into every single build is obligatory, which I feel runs counter to the goals of power & enhancement design.

 

I propose that Supremacy grant a +res and +def bonus that scales with your level so that at 50 it provides the same bonus those IOs currently provide. Those globals would then be changed to damage procs that can be used to compensate for the very narrow damage typing most MM sets have.

 

I do not believe such a change would be overpowering, because well-built MMs would only get a small damage boost that'd be more geared around varying their types. The boost would be more for those who don't want to have to build in a specific way every time just to be survivable.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Smello

[Crysta Clear]

Delete pet collision. I don't care what you play as long as it doesn't block doors and hallways in missions.

[Monos King]

On 12/19/2019 at 8:51 AM, Smello said:

I believe Supremacy grants a +tohit bonus that was intended to compensate for the reduced levels, it could be reduced or removed.

It may have been, but it was likely just a thematic buff that is nice to have. If that were the case, the highest level pet would not benefit from supremacy. I wouldn't like to see that buff removed, as there are instances pet level increase doesn't account for the resulting loss in strength (against giant monsters, PvP, lower levels of MM, incarnate trials, etc).

 

 

Other than that small note I'm not opposed; giving new procs is a cool idea. Although level 50 MMs aren't really the issue, and this could quickly make them too strong. Essentially just by hitting 50 pets would have current maxed out strength.

 

[Outrider_01]

I hate MM in groups.  Not the AT, the shear number of pets.  Ever play with 3 of them? Not the few themed 8 MM teams, normal teams.  Hit them with speed boost make it worse, melee get bounced around.  But in a mosh pit, they are very effective any way.

 

1. Reduce the number of pets to 3 each of tier. Variable abilities. 1st tier demons are range, second could be have mez or debuff powers for a controller/defender type, third could be be mixed tank/scrapper.

2. Change buffs, 1 does +stat, another might boost damage. Another might grant a different ability change so third might make those tier 3 into a brute or stalker type.

3 Attack?  Can't understand why they exist but as filler, the demon whip is freaking gorgeous.  Maybe more pet types, 6 pet types and 3 buffs or 5 pet types with 4 buffs limited to 3 pets total each power

 

I just don't understand the point when the original Devs made MM, so many pets destroy the fun for the rest of the team when they get bumped around.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Outrider_01

[Galaxy Brain]

6 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

1. Reduce the number of pets to 3 each of tier.

They... already are? Tier 1 is 3 pets, Tier 2 is 2, Tier 3 is 1

[Outrider_01]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

They... already are? Tier 1 is 3 pets, Tier 2 is 2, Tier 3 is 1

You ever see fire imps more then 3?  Every time you resummon the previous 3 die?

 

That kind of pets, but unlike controllers MM get 3 of each type with 3 different types, but no more then 3 period.  That would equal 9 pets, but only 3 active at any one time. Various types but more robust and the buffs give them attributes or increase stats.  They also follow commands unlike controller pets.

 

No more the 3 out is what I am saying.  7 + the MM is equal to the entire team. Melee get pushed around trying to hit stuff from the mosh pit, worse wjen there are more then one MM. They also choke doors.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Outrider_01

[boggo2300]

2 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

You ever see fire imps more then 3?  Every time you resummon the previous 3 die?

 

That kind of pets, but unlike controllers MM get 3 of each type with 3 different types, but no more then 3 period.  That would equal 9 pets, but only 3 active at any one time. Various types but more robust and the buffs give them attributes or increase stats.  They also follow commands unlike controller pets.

 

No more the 3 out is what I am saying.  7 + the MM is equal to the entire team. Melee get pushed around trying to hit stuff from the mosh pit, worse wjen there are more then one MM. They also choke doors.

what a terrible idea, I would hate that so much I can't put it into words! 

[Brutal Justice]

Is it me or do the ninjas run out of end extremely fast.  I have a lvl 20 and the genin run out of end pretty quickly with only their lvl 1 upgrade.  I don’t remember having that issue with other pets.  Maybe with their lvl 2 upgrade, but not with lvl 1.  It really hurts their dps once they run out of end.  Do ninjas need help with end usage?  

[boggo2300]

1 hour ago, Mr.Sinister said:

Is it me or do the ninjas run out of end extremely fast.  I have a lvl 20 and the genin run out of end pretty quickly with only their lvl 1 upgrade.  I don’t remember having that issue with other pets.  Maybe with their lvl 2 upgrade, but not with lvl 1.  It really hurts their dps once they run out of end.  Do ninjas need help with end usage?  

My ninja's don't seem to survive long enough to run out of end 😄

[Outrider_01]

7 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

what a terrible idea, I would hate that so much I can't put it into words! 

Terrible idea is was giving them 7 pets each. Increase the number of MM, decreases the ability of your group members, dark maisma heal can't position when they are bumped out of the way.

 

Terrible idea is nerfing uncontrollable controller pets with spastic attack AI in I4. Long before MM existed, first "pet" class.

 

Terrible idea is assuming the map choices were 50% are office and caves with choke points that come up 80% of the time. At least sewer type are wider  and very few open.

 

Terrible idea is you assuming  I want to stand on the side lines getting exp playing melee while I can't contribute to the group with a mosh pit of 21 pets in the way when I said 3 MM, playing non-incarnate that face roll the map anyway.  Throw in speed boost its like 7 Flash x number of MM present.

 

Terrible idea is giving MM expendable pets, resummoning is a hassle when a -1 can't really hit the common +4, unless its an easier taskforce.  Dr Evil had #1, the guy with a hat, Mini-me, and Fat B. Would rather have a controllable Spec-Op force with special abilities then random firing and meleeing pet.  Short of being actually killed, just want reliable pets.

 

Terrible assuming is not seeing Crystal Clears post 6 above you.  I have had complaints along with my own that in groups,  non-MM AT players can't deal with MM and too many pets. Its the collision box that is the problem. I don't hate the MM AT, I hate the number of pets.  Just started my own, but on non-MM pet, non-range AT, its impossible to play melee in very narrow corridors or door ways.

 

I don't want to tell people how to play thier class or feel useless because I can't move foward.  MM itself should be the lead with a few Henchman, not a leader with a deputy, two vets, and 3 FNG rookie newbs.

 

All I am saying is: reduce the number of pets to 3 at any time, no timer unlike controllers, rebalance stats so the tier 1 isn't easy fodder and tier 3 don't make them OP, cause all last powers in any AT set are the most powerful.  Buff can change abilities.

 

I don't care what you play, but to many pets just make life so difficult.  Unless the collision box is fixed, its just a mosh pit that gets more unenjoyable the more MM present, I don't want to be the guy that would kick people because of that or tell people what to do nor want to be the usless guy soaking free experience.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Outrider_01

[Monos King]

10 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

You ever see fire imps more then 3?  Every time you resummon the previous 3 die?

 

That kind of pets, but unlike controllers MM get 3 of each type with 3 different types, but no more then 3 period.  That would equal 9 pets, but only 3 active at any one time. Various types but more robust and the buffs give them attributes or increase stats.  They also follow commands unlike controller pets.

 

No more the 3 out is what I am saying.  7 + the MM is equal to the entire team. Melee get pushed around trying to hit stuff from the mosh pit, worse wjen there are more then one MM. They also choke doors.

I don't mean to be rude, but I don't see anyone being in favor of that. Part of the charm of rolling the mastermind is feeling like you command an army. This would be taking away the most vital fun factor of the MM class. At any rate, this thread is discussing issues, primarily to MM survivability aspects, and not fundamental changes to the entire class or how it affects QoL in other classes. The amount of pets summoned is not an issue. You should probably move to another thread with that suggestion.

[Outrider_01]

3 hours ago, monos1 said:

I don't mean to be rude, but I don't see anyone being in favor of that. Part of the charm of rolling the mastermind is feeling like you command an army. This would be taking away the most vital fun factor of the MM class. At any rate, this thread is discussing issues, primarily to MM survivability aspects, and not fundamental changes to the entire class or how it affects QoL in other classes. The amount of pets summoned is not an issue. You should probably move to another thread with that suggestion.

Run a melee with 7 MM and 49 pets through a cave or office, get back to me.  No incarnate of your own, try to get a normal non-turbo tank or brute through a choke point. 

 

As for what you are saying I should move on consider this which might fall in line with the thread.  Open statement about pet squish factor and level, now if you follow my suggestion of where I am going with this the pets would be boosted to compensate for reduction of 7 to 4, don't you think? Increased stats and a bump in level. BOOM!  A buff.

 

As for an army, your not Recluse.  Your Joe Schmoe the villian in a team with up to 7 other actual players.  Maybe the MM player should consider them over feelings of superiority for the tier 1 fodder pots which die useless anway currently, leading pixel minions.  All I am saying, balance the MM without clogging up the fucking map so your team isn't slowed down getting through choke points on poorly designed maps.  NPC parties are spawned in closet offices.  That is my beef.

 

Now excuse me if no one follows what I am saying at the barest of ideas, gonna pick up the nemesis staff and black wand so I can spam them usless on my melee and hope no one bitchs cause I can't do shit while the original Developers had no fucking concept of 7 other people with spastic blob AI and large collision boxes in a group with their shit maps.

 

Done.  Only trying to suggest a fix that helps everyone without a blob of pets in my view.

 

Edit: I know, sounding like an ass.  Just want people to consider a good idea, the current and actual implementation are horrible since day 1.  Imp AI  is what first drove me from MM, would rather of seen MM as a strong pet class without the stupid army.

 

Let me put this foward, you guys want sronger pets, you guys better learn when you should and you shouldn't use to many pets. Many think its awsome to have them all out, there are times they are not necessary. MM are reliant on them, but you got to think of your team mates.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Outrider_01