Weekly discussion 42: Scrappers!

[GM Miss]

Weekly discussion 42 - Week 3/15/20-3/21/20:

⚔️ YOU VOTED: We are back on Archetypes - Scrappers! ⚔️

 

❓ Things to think about:

 

>How do they compare with other damaging/Survival ATs?

>What is your favorite Primary/Secondary?

>Are they underpowered/overpowered/okay at the moment?

>What would you like to see changed?

>What do you love about them?

 

Let's Chat 😄

[Redlynne]

42 minutes ago, GM Miss said:

>What is your favorite Primary/Secondary?

The original Redlynne on Virtue was a Martial Arts/Super Reflexes Scrapper rolled up in Issue 2.  I will ALWAYS have a soft spot for these powersets.

44 minutes ago, GM Miss said:

>What would you like to see changed?

Kinetic Melee T9 Concentrated Strike

The conventional wisdom of the community with regards to this power is that it just simply isn't worth the trouble/effort to take and slot this power because the supposed benefits of it just don't add up on Scrappers.  If the power was coded in such a way as to critically hit AND insta-recharge Power Siphon, this perception would change ... but so long as the power is coded in such a way that it CAN'T critically hit (on a Scrapper? really??) because ALL of the advantage to using the power has been funneled into instantly recharging Power Siphon (creating an OR situation rather than an AND situation) this power will be rightfully thought of as being Gimped By Design™ and rejected by build analysts who HAVE TESTED this phenomenon.

 

Kinetic Melee T4 Power Siphon

We have reports that since Power Siphon can be stacked, it is only stacking the part of it that Scrappers care about (+Damage) ONCE while stacking the part of it that Scrappers don't bother with too much (+ToHit) multiple times.  Given the way that Power Siphon spreads its damage bonus over time more than Build Up powers do, can Power Siphon be altered such that having multiple Power Siphon buffs at the same time allows the damage buff of each to function on an AND basis, rather than an OR basis?  Being able to stack damage bonuses from multiple Power Siphons would go a LONG way towards rehabilitating impressions around the value of Concentrated Strike (see above) in build strategies.

 

Martial Arts T2 Storm Kick

Brutes and Tankers get +Defense from using this power ... while Scrappers and Stalkers do not.  I'm fine with Scrappers and Stalkers getting LESS +Defense out of Storm Kick than Brutes and Tankers do, but I'm not okay with Scrappers and Stalkers getting ZERO +Defense out of Storm Kick.

 

Super Reflexes Power Order

Legacy: Focused Fighting . Focused Senses . Agile . Practiced Brawler . Dodge . Quickness . Lucky . Evasion . Elude

Proposed: Focused Fighting . Dodge . Focused Senses . Practiced Brawler . Agile . Evasion . Lucky . Quickness . Elude

Resulting proposed pattern: Melee (toggle, passive), Ranged (toggle), Mez Protection, Ranged (passive), AoE (toggle, passive), Quickness (passive), Elude (click)

It always felt like the reason why (then) Cryptic didn't make Super Reflexes come out in a toggle/toggle/toggle then passive/passive/passive sequence was because back in the early days Stamina wasn't inherent and it would have been perfectly possible to drain your endurance recovery horrifically with 3 toggles draining 0.26 end/sec on a base recovery of 1.76 end/sec with no hope for Stamina to slot for recovery until Level 20(!), and it simply isn't possible to survive on a +0.98 end/sec budget (while attacking!) when limited to TOs and DOs since you'd need to spend all of your slots on endurance reduction from the get go (a VERY steep ask!).  The biggest failing of Super Reflexes on Scrappers is the simple fact that the AoE Defense gets "finished" far too late (the T8 power!) making AoE Defense a HUGE HOLE in the protection scheme when Exemplared.

[Without_Pause]

First AT which lead my to soloing,

 

I think damage/survival is great.

Primaries I like include Claws, StJ, Kat, and Rad, but I need to look at others as I can assume I would like just about all of them although BS is on the slow side and TW needs Momentum. Dark post fix will likely be added to my favorites list. I have a feeling WM would be added to the list if I ever rolled one.

Scrappers are in a very good spot now even if a good amount of my love for them went to brutes and stalkers.

Kin is just too long in animation times. I want to inject that powerset into my veins, but I just can't.

See comment about soloing. I played a lot of support on Live so scrappers finally clicking for me was nice. Also, the pile of dead bodies and the ability just to try out stupid scrapper tricks.

 

I forgot to add, I can't think of a secondary which stands out for me. Regen was my first love, but the set is helped a lot these days with IO sets.

Edited March 15, 2020 by Without_Pause

[Abraxus]

Oddly, this has been one of less frequently used AT for me in this iteration of the game, as well as the live version before.  I did have a couple, and didn't dislike them, per se.    The damage output was satisfying, and "up close and personal" in nature.  But, I think I found while playing them that my style was more suited to the ranged, and control based ATs.  When I look at my pantheon of characters, the numbers are overwhelmingly representative of this.  Plus, when one throws in the Brute AT to the argument, with perhaps slightly less raw damage, but a bit more survivability, it's easy to go that direction when considering a melee toon. 

 

My favorite Scrapper that I have ever played, used what is probably one of least played power set combinations.  His name is "The Immortal Light", and he uses Dark/Dark powers.  I always thought that was kinda funny, but nobody ever seemed to get it when I played him. 

[golstat2003]

My second character ever was a Dark Melee Scrapper. I have not made a single one on Homecoming since coming to it last year.

 

I don't know what, but scrappers need . . . something to make them more appealing to me.

 

I'm sure lots of others love them.

 

Me /meh

[Eldyem]

Scrappers are in a strange place - I don't actually think there's anything wrong with them exactly, I just struggle to see why I would want to play the majority of powerset combinations on a Scrapper in the current environment. Not because Scrappers are bad, but because Scrappers sort of lack any kind of overarching identity. Brutes absolutely step on their toes quite a bit as a damage AT while also having a built-in taunt that provides a lot of utility even when you're not tanking. Stalkers have the utility of a very strong built-in stealth, and plenty of newer Stalker primaries aren't giving up AoE anymore. Tankers are tanks, and the recent buffs make them very appealing.

And that's where the strange place for Scrappers is; they're not in a bad spot, they're not bad at all, but they just have no identity and less utility than other melees and I don't want to play most combinations on a Scrapper because of that. I don't think they need buffed. I don't think there's anything glaringly wrong with the archetype. I think that any given buff would probably either not resolve the identity issue or would send them flying out of control into being the "best" melee AT again. I think the core issue is that we have 4 ATs who do very similar things, not that Scrappers are somehow broken. And that makes them boring.

I like Kinetics/Shield largely because I like Kinetic Melee and the Power Siphon mechanic is less impactful on a Brute and doesn't exist on a Stalker. Shield's damage buffs on Scrappers are more impactful than on Brutes, and I like the core mechanic of Against All Odds as being surrounded vs. what I believe Stalkers get.

[warlyx]

scrapper are more like a blender , scrapperlock is a huge issue.....when u put your head up after fighting for what looks hours....where is everyone? 😄

[Doc_Scorpion]

8 hours ago, Eldyem said:

Scrappers are in a strange place - I don't actually think there's anything wrong with them exactly, I just struggle to see why I would want to play the majority of powerset combinations on a Scrapper in the current environment. Not because Scrappers are bad, but because Scrappers sort of lack any kind of overarching identity. Brutes absolutely step on their toes quite a bit as a damage AT while also having a built-in taunt that provides a lot of utility even when you're not tanking. Stalkers have the utility of a very strong built-in stealth, and plenty of newer Stalker primaries aren't giving up AoE anymore. Tankers are tanks, and the recent buffs make them very appealing.

Having a damage primary with a defense secondary, Sentinels also sorta contribute to putting Scrappers in the same strange place.

I've recreated my Scrappers from Live as Scrappers, but new characters on HC tend to be Brutes or Tanks depending on which is the better fit conceptually.  A good chunk of that is that Critical Hit is among the weakest of the inherent powers.  Unlike Gauntlet or Fury, it only fires occasionally and undependably and doesn't bring much to the party.

That being said, what Scrappers I do have are fun to play.

[Cutter]

I mained a Spines/Dark scrapper from i3 to shutdown. Tried recreating him here, and it just felt... off? I'm building tankers more than anything these days; my old main just got recreated as a Dark/Savage tank and it feels a lot better than my first attempt at recreating the scrapper version.

 

To echo some of the other points made, it seems to me that Scrappers' identity has been diluted. Brutes have all the damage plus better caps for resist armours, while Stalkers get better crits now, and their new melee sets still retain most of the AOE potential.

 

My first "this is outrageous and will never happen" thought was to separate the melee damage ATs by sets: Give tanks and brutes the slow melee sets and resist armours, and have scrappers & stalkers share the faster melee sets and defense armours. Overlap the hybrids. From there, on the scrapper/stalker divide, I'd rework the sets, including new powers where needed, to push scrappers more firmly into an AOE blender role, and stalkers more firmly into single target death dealers.

 

In the real world, since I can't see that happening (nobody wants their sets taken away from them), I'd like to see better role differentiation. It might be heresy but I think a new inherent could be a real possibility. Leave crits to stalkers, since they get better % as well as better control of timing. Brutes obviously keep fury. Scrappers? I dunno, maybe...

 

SCRAPPERLOCK!

 

The longer a scrapper fights, the more frenzied his attacks become as he gives in to the true nature of scrappering. All scrapper single-target attacks have a chance to splash damage to nearby enemies; as the fight goes on, the chance increases. In addition, the scrapper loses himself in single minded focus and can shrug off conditions that might fell a lesser combatant. For every 10(?) seconds the scrapper is in combat, he gains a small absorb shield and endurance recovery buff, increasing in strength as the fight goes on.

 

Aside from being much more reliable than crits, this would give even the single-target heavy sets an AOE presence, and "feed the beast" that is the scrapper's relentless need to attack.

 

I loved my scrappers back on live, but so far here on HC I find it hard to justify rolling one up when another AT does what I want it to do, but better.

[Doc_Scorpion]

36 minutes ago, Cutter said:

SCRAPPERLOCK!

 

The longer a scrapper fights, the more frenzied his attacks become as he gives in to the true nature of scrappering. All scrapper single-target attacks have a chance to splash damage to nearby enemies; as the fight goes on, the chance increases. In addition, the scrapper loses himself in single minded focus and can shrug off conditions that might fell a lesser combatant. For every 10(?) seconds the scrapper is in combat, he gains a small absorb shield and endurance recovery buff, increasing in strength as the fight goes on.

To me, scrapperlock has always felt more like increased concentration and intense focus rather than fury and lack of control...  I like the general idea, but I'd go with "pushing up the chance for a crit" and "shrugging off conditions".

[Cutter]

5 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

To me, scrapperlock has always felt more like increased concentration and intense focus rather than fury and lack of control...  I like the general idea, but I'd go with "pushing up the chance for a crit" and "shrugging off conditions".

That would also work. I was just spitballing something totally new, given the premise of "leave the crits to Stalkers".

 

Any way you look at it tho, I think it's generally agreed that Scrappers need something to make them unique.

[Shred Monkey]

I played almost exclusively scrappers on live.  But on homecoming, I have ZERO scrappers (yeah, really ZERO).  I don't think I even have one in my junk pile of discarded toons.  It's not that I don't like them.  I just end up liking other things more.

 

I think before CoV came out, Scrappers were probably the most played AT.  They were kings of damage, and could stand toe-to-toe with anything.  The tanks were needed to keep squishies alive, but scrappers were there to round out any team or just excel solo!  And with that history, nobody every bothered to ask if changes were going to make Scrappers obsolete.  The hardcore scrapper crowd (myself included) kept scrappers relevant no matter what.  So the devs gave everything else more love, because scrappers were already OK.   

 

Now, years later, everything else got more love, and Scrappers are still just OK.

 

 

 

 

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Cutter said:

That would also work. I was just spitballing something totally new, given the premise of "leave the crits to Stalkers".

I don't entirely agree with "leave crits to Stalkers", given that to some degree Stalkers have control over their extra damage and can at least attempt to summon it precisely when they want to against the target(s) they want to apply it to.  As I see it, the Scrapperlock inherent would be something more like Fury/Defiance 1.0 (you have to get in there and "earn it") plus a splash of vermouth defensive or sustainment buff of some kind to further differentiate it from the existing pure offensive buffs.  (You'll also want to keep it from getting too close to Scourge or Vigilance and other such inherents.)

It would be tricky, but worth it for the long term.
 

1 hour ago, Shred Monkey said:

I think before CoV came out, Scrappers were probably the most played AT.  They were kings of damage, and could stand toe-to-toe with anything.  The tanks were needed to keep squishies alive, but scrappers were there to round out any team or just excel solo!  And with that history, nobody every bothered to ask if changes were going to make Scrappers obsolete.  The hardcore scrapper crowd (myself included) kept scrappers relevant no matter what.  So the devs gave everything else more love, because scrappers were already OK.   

 

Now, years later, everything else got more love, and Scrappers are still just OK.

Quoted for emphasis.  To me, Archetype Proliferation was the best/worst decision the OG dev team ever made.  It opened up a lot of possibilities, but it also introduced a lot of imbalances (which we're still dealing with today*) because blueside wasn't designed with redside ATs in mind.

Now that Tanks and Brutes have been sorted out (to a degree), maybe it is time to give Scrappers a good long look.


* Witness the lengthy Brute/Tank debates during the recent changes/updates to Tanks here on HC.

[Cutter]

18 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

I don't entirely agree with "leave crits to Stalkers", given that to some degree Stalkers have control over their extra damage and can at least attempt to summon it precisely when they want to against the target(s) they want to apply it to.  As I see it, the Scrapperlock inherent would be something more like Fury/Defiance 1.0 (you have to get in there and "earn it") plus a splash of vermouth defensive or sustainment buff of some kind to further differentiate it from the existing pure offensive buffs.  (You'll also want to keep it from getting too close to Scourge or Vigilance and other such inherents.)

It would be tricky, but worth it for the long term.

I completely agree with the "get in there an earn" idea. The idea of scrappers getting "scrappier" over time.

 

As far as crits go, trust me I know that's always been the scrapper domain. But with stalkers ALSO getting crits, AND being better able to control them (plus they get a larger % chance from being on teams), I thought I'd explore an alternative. I have nothing against scrappers getting a better crit mechanic!

 

As far as a sustain goes, I think +absorb and +recovery is strong and different enough from the others that are out there. It's be cool to see something that allows the resist sets to temporarily break the 75% limit, but that's not equally applicable.

[Jacke]

Way back on Live in Issue 5, I started with City of Heroes by making a few toons on a friend's account.  They were Scrappers, exact powers unknown but I'm sure I tried out Dark Melee and Invulnerability as well as Regeneration.  So for Homecoming, for my shard anchor toons ("Jacke"), I decided to go with Dark Melee-Invulnerability Scrappers.  In later toons including Scrappers, I've used Dark Melee more, but Invulnerability only ended up on a Invulnerability-Super Strength Tanker I later deleted.

 

On 3/15/2020 at 7:56 AM, Redlynne said:

The original Redlynne on Virtue was a Martial Arts/Super Reflexes Scrapper rolled up in Issue 2.  I will ALWAYS have a soft spot for these powersets.

I love Martial Arts-Super Reflexes too!  Made a MA-SR Scrapper in Issue 7 called Jack Bruce. 🙂

 

On 3/15/2020 at 7:56 AM, Redlynne said:

[ Kinetic Melee power woes ]

My first Praetorian back on Live was a Kinetic Melee-Dark Armor Scrapper.  Took him to level 24 and to Paragon City, but was very meh about KM.  Makes a lot of noise and has flasy animations, but it never felt right the way Dark Melee and Martial Arts do.  Including what you've said about at least 2 of its powers, I think Kinetic Melee needs some attention and changes.  I've heard that Kinetic Melee on Stalkers is just better, so I'll eventually get around to checking it out.

 

 

On 3/15/2020 at 7:56 AM, Redlynne said:

Martial Arts T2 Storm Kick

Brutes and Tankers get +Defense from using this power ... while Scrappers and Stalkers do not.  I'm fine with Scrappers and Stalkers getting LESS +Defense out of Storm Kick than Brutes and Tankers do, but I'm not okay with Scrappers and Stalkers getting ZERO +Defense out of Storm Kick.

I did not realise that was one of the cross-AT differences.  Scrapper Storm Kick supposedly gets a higher chance to crit.  I agree, all Storm Kicks should provide +Def.

 

On 3/15/2020 at 7:56 AM, Redlynne said:

 

Super Reflexes Power Order

Legacy: Focused Fighting . Focused Senses . Agile . Practiced Brawler . Dodge . Quickness . Lucky . Evasion . Elude

Proposed: Focused Fighting . Dodge . Focused Senses . Practiced Brawler . Agile . Evasion . Lucky . Quickness . Elude

I like this new proposed power sequence.  Interestingly, Brutes got a partial fix, swapping Quickness and Evasion from the Legacy Scrapper order.

 

Brute: Focused Fighting . Focused Senses . Agile . Practiced Brawler . Dodge . Evasion . Lucky . Quickness . Elude

 

And Elude needs to be revisited and changed.  It's a buff that in the current game gives at most a depth of extra Defense, though still useful at times.  Runs for 3 minutes then a hard crash.  Hard crash isn't as bad as Invulnerability's Unstoppable, but both powers need a changing.

 

[Doomguide2005]

Agree Elude needs a revamp of some sort.  Pretty much anytime a power gets "skipped" so universally compared to the rest of comparable powers (primary vs primary, secondary vs secondary, pool vs pool etc.) it should send up a red flag that something is off.

[Heraclea]

My thought is that scrappers ought to bring more value to teams than they do.   When running material that is actually difficult - say Ms. Liberty master runs - team leaders are often quite upfront about preferring anything other than a scrapper.  There are scrapper secondaries that do bring value to teams - Shield, Radiation, and Electric come to mind - but anything a scrapper can do with them, a tanker can do better, and do at a lower level.  It's usually a scrapper that leaves the team to go solo different spawns in the mission.  Nobody minds, it's sort of expected, but most importantly the team doesn't benefit from having the scrapper beside them, so nobody cares. 

 

Maybe have the scrapper's critical chance be shareable by teammates within 20' of the scrapper.   Give them a small but stacking chance for the other player's attacks to do critical damage. 

[Mister Mass]

I think the scrapper, between their damage & protection, is fine mechanically.  But like Heraclea above, I wonder if they bring enough value to their teams beyond damage & their own survivability.  As some people have pointed out, the scrapper is the most selfish of the ATs - as the (by design) most soloable of the ATs, they benefit from support, but add little of their own.  Figuring out a way to allow scrappers to support the team without unbalancing their contribution would be a great goal.  I'm not seeing an obvious solution to this, but I will be interested to see what others suggest.

[Call Me Awesome]

I've played several Scrappers to 50 over the years, BS/Regen, BS/Shield, Spine/Regen, Spine/Elec, Street Justice/Invuln.  In general I think Scrappers are in a pretty good place right now with a few powersets needing attention.  The AT itself I think is fine with a good balance between Scrapper/Stalker/Brute.  

 

What comes immediately to mind is the current state of Regeneration; while it's far from unplayable it is one of the poorest performing sets and it really only shines with a primary able to give it a boost like BS with Parry, or with fairly drastic IO defense bonuses.  I've found that my BS/Regen from way back in issue 3-4 was still competitive in the later game mainly due to Parry's help with Melee defense while my Spine/Regen became very squishy and was mostly retired after the issue 5-6 nerfs.  Here on Homecoming I have a Fire/Regen Stalker I built for soft capped S/L defenses and it works quite well; I'd assume that a similarly built Scrapper would be much the same.  Still, it needs considerable help to be competitive, either from a Primary or from a fairly defense focused IO build.  The big question is how to accomplish this without overbuffing it.  One thought is to go back to toggle Instant Healing; with ED caps now in place the set won't have the runaway unkillable status it had back in the old days but it'll still be competitive with top sets like Shield.

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, Heraclea said:

My thought is that scrappers ought to bring more value to teams than they do.   When running material that is actually difficult - say Ms. Liberty master runs - team leaders are often quite upfront about preferring anything other than a scrapper.  There are scrapper secondaries that do bring value to teams - Shield, Radiation, and Electric come to mind - but anything a scrapper can do with them, a tanker can do better, and do at a lower level.  It's usually a scrapper that leaves the team to go solo different spawns in the mission.  Nobody minds, it's sort of expected, but most importantly the team doesn't benefit from having the scrapper beside them, so nobody cares. 

 

Maybe have the scrapper's critical chance be shareable by teammates within 20' of the scrapper.   Give them a small but stacking chance for the other player's attacks to do critical damage. 

That one is a neat idea, I like it.

 

Couple of issues I see for the AT:

 

Scrappers having the same 75% res cap as even the squishy classes.  For resist heavy sets like electric armor, fire armor, dark armor  I have a real hard time justifying playing a scrapper over a brute.  90% res cap vs 75% may not sound like a lot, but is a HUGE disparity in survivability in favor of the brute (especially combined with the hit point difference on top of it), in exchange for brutes not giving up much in the way of damage.  The cost/benefit is just way off to me for the resistance armor sets.  Scrapper res cap should be bumped up a bit (say to 80 or 85% imo).

 

I also think confront (the power that only like 2% of scrappers take?), needs to be looked at.  I'd like to see it at least be made AoE so that scrappers playing tauntless secondaries at least have that as an option and it is at least as good as a simple pool power (provoke).

Edited March 16, 2020 by Riverdusk

[Troo]

Troo Power Scale ©℗®™

[ under-powered | okay at the moment | overpowered ]

 

Scrappers definitely work. Some power set diversification might be nice (seems to be on the horizon).

 

Idea: Let them run a little faster. That wouldn't break anything, would it?

Edited March 17, 2020 by Troo

[Troo]

[Saikochoro]

I love scrappers, but as time goes on I begin to think of a powerset combo I’d like to play. And then I think, why not just make a stalker? Scrappers may have a slight edge in survivability and aoe, but stalkers have way more damage it seems and on demand crits. So I find myself just making stalkers instead. 
 

Seeing some suggestions about the scrapper inherent, I don’t think I agree with getting rid of critical hits on scrappers. Those nice criticals are some of the most satisfying things on scrappers. And I especially don’t agree with shifting it, even just part of it, to a survivability aspect as opposed to offense.  Changing the inherent away from critical would necessitate the ATOs to be redone. It would also deprive them even more of their dwindling offensive advantage over tanks and brutes. 

I honestly would rather double down on scrappers offensive nature and improve their critical hit inherent in some form or another to be more competitive with stalkers. 

 

If the inherent had to change away from criticals, then I would suggest going for recharge bonuses (flat or scaling with damage done) as an inherent as that would still apply to their offensive nature.  But I still think criticals are better. 
 

Tl;Dr:  I feel like stalkers are stepping on scrapper toes more than brutes or tankers. I don’t like the idea of changing their inherent away from criticals. If anything, they should double down and improve their criticals. I would just want something to make them more competitive with stalkers. 

Edited March 16, 2020 by Saikochoro

[Saikochoro]

1 hour ago, Riverdusk said:

I also think confront (the power that only like 2% of scrappers take?), needs to be looked at.  I'd like to see it at least be made AoE so that scrappers playing tauntless secondaries at least have that as an option and it is at least as good as a simple pool power (provoke).

I honestly wish they would get rid of confront on scrappers. If I wanted to taunt I’d play a brute or tanker. Kind of wish they would just turn it into another AoE attack across the board. Or perhaps just some other more useful utility power instead (recovery tool, heal, debuff, or even a control power).

Edited March 17, 2020 by Saikochoro

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, Saikochoro said:

I honestly wish they would get rid of confront on scrappers. If I wanted to taunt I’d play a brute or tanker. Kind of wish they would just turn it into another AoE attack across the board. Or perhaps just some other more useful utility power instead (recovery tool, heal, debuff, or even a control power).

Yep, I'd be good with that too.