We need to talk about Power Pools

[ABlueThingy]

I keep seeing isolated questions and suggestions about various pool powers and if they're too weak or too strong or what.  Which pools are good, or too good, or terrible.  And how to buff and/or nerf them.

 

But I think the community needs to decide what the pool powers... are... or should be.  Decide and go from there.  Otherwise a lot of these discussions are not very fruitful.

 

The biggest question I think that needs addressed is exactly how good should a pool power be?  With the Experiment pool on Beta there was discussion about how good it's one damage power was.  Often compared to the T2 powers from blast sets.  Almost as good as a T2 is pretty good for a pool power.  But it was nerfed in a recent patch.  Is that good? Bad?

 

Before we even get into specific power set buffs or nerfs we have to get to the heart of it.  Because it depends on what you think a pool power is for. 

 

The nerf is good if you think that pool powers shouldn't be on par with primary/secondary powers.  I can see why, if the pool powers are roughly equal to their primary counterparts but they also are required to unlock other useful powers you're going to end up in some situations where it's always going to be better to ignore parts of your Pri/Sec for pool powers.  If you're already going to have to pick up Kick and sacrifice a slot for it just to get Weave... and it's better then some of your regular attacks.  Why would you ever pick up those attacks, you could just slot Kick.

 

The nerf is bad if you think pool powers should be on par with pri/sec powers. I can see why.  I mean, you do have to invest a whole-ass power slot into them and one of your only 4 pools.  You also HAVE To pick up some of them as pre-req for others.  It's kind of jerk move if you make me pick up Kick but it's also garbage. Either I have to spend Enh slots on it, a sort of good-money-after-bad thing.  Or it's just always going to be shit and there's no point and I just remove it from my bar.  Both of those options suck.

 

 

Now this isn't to focus on just the Experiment pool or Fighting pool.  But they are obvious examples. 

 

If anyone has any other thoughts on the baseline nature of power pools, how strong they should be, what function they should serve in building a character(supplemental, core thematic investment, small mechanical boosts, something else?) I'd love to see a discussion!

 

 

 

[Replacement]

The design paradigm has been that you have to be forced to pay a tax to gain access to universal powers. That tax is the worthless powers set up as prerequisites.  This thinking infected a lot of game design of the era (you can see this at play in a lot of tabletop systems of the era, most notably d&d 3.5).

 

In addition to what you laid out, about not having many powers to be wasting, I have one additional huge problem with the mindset of crappy pool powers:

 

Hasten. Talk about inconsistent power level. This is the same tier as Boxing, Jump Kick, and Flurry. And yet it's mandatory in many builds, including at least one entire AT.

 

I could also make the argument that it limits build diversity by setting up half the pool powers as simply means to an end.

[Doc_Scorpion]

16 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Hasten. Talk about inconsistent power level. This is the same tier as Boxing, Jump Kick, and Flurry. And yet it's mandatory in many builds, including at least one entire AT.

Hasten is not by any means mandatory.  It's entirely possible to play without it, let alone without it being perma.
 

17 minutes ago, Replacement said:

The design paradigm has been that you have to be forced to pay a tax to gain access to universal powers. That tax is the worthless powers set up as prerequisites.

*Tries to think of a single worthless power I've ever selected from a pool.*  *Comes up blank.*  Less useful than some?  Sure.  Worthless?  No.

The problem is less one of the powers, and more one of the playerbase's fervent minmaxing.

[Redlynne]

5 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

The problem is less one of the powers, and more one of the playerbase's fervent minmaxing.

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

Hasten. Talk about inconsistent power level. This is the same tier as Boxing, Jump Kick, and Flurry. And yet it's mandatory in many builds, including at least one entire AT.

That's really only because players have made it that way, right? I don't actually need hasten for any of my builds. Depending on your priorities some abilities will be more useful than others.

 

Hastens definitely super useful but it's not like that makes all other pools useless by comparison or that they all have to be as potent as it is.

[Galaxy Brain]

38 minutes ago, Monos King said:

That's really only because players have made it that way, right? I don't actually need hasten for any of my builds. Depending on your priorities some abilities will be more useful than others.

 

Hastens definitely super useful but it's not like that makes all other pools useless by comparison or that they all have to be as potent as it is.

I do think the crux of the statement is that Hasten is obscenely powerful for what it provides compared to basically any other power.

[Zepp]

Two previous threads on this topic:

and

Also, I suggested that standardizing requirements may be helpful:

On 1/14/2020 at 6:19 PM, Zepp said:

My preference would be to convert all the power pool sets to the same distribution:

1. Lvl 4 no powers
2. Lvl 4 no powers
3. Lvl 4 no powers
4. Lvl 14 one power
5. Lvl 20 two powers

Some of the pool power set orders may need to change and T5 powers may need to up their game, and also TP needs a full-on make-over. But that being said, I think that small adjustment could lead to a better overall experience.

In terms of the OP question, what should Pool Powers be. I think that they should be universally accessible powers that are slightly below primary/secondary power levels but still useful. Pool attacks are generally the biggest issue, as they are much lower DpA than primary/secondary powers while also being a highly resisted damage type. They could definitely be given a leg up to make them non-optimal yet viable options. If you take my standardization suggestion and adjust DpA on Pool attacks by 5-10% then the rest of the adjustments are set-specific.

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I do think the crux of the statement is that Hasten is obscenely powerful for what it provides compared to basically any other power.

Oh, well I'd agree. No doubt. It seemed like he was taking it in a "let's make all the other leading pool powers similarly useful" direction, which is probably on the same road as power creep since that use in question is dependent on community set paradigms.

 

Buuuttt I see that isn't the case. Ignore me hahaha

[Haijinx]

Power Pools Thread.

 

Must be Wednesday. 

[Alchemystic]

The new origin power pools seem far more formulaic in their approach, and there may be a reason for that; they are exclusive from one another.

 

Players can freely pick between any power pools they wish, but they can only select a single origin power pool, so that's why they all appear so similar in design.

 

However, it's true that these new power pools set a new precedent for balancing, especially versus conventional travel powers. In order to compete, old power pools need to appear more viable with a little rebalancing.

 

Travel powers should probably follow the same formulaic approach as origin power pools so they balance out against each other, and after that other pool powers should be looked at to see what changes they need to meet the new balance criteria.

 

Travel powers should look like this;

• an attack power
• a toggle power
• a travel power (with new secondary functionality)
• a team power
• a strong self buff

 

This means the nature of some travel power pools will change, but will balance out a little more evenly. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

IMO Pool,Ancillary, and epic pool powers should all be as good as any other powers. Every power costs a power slot. The vast majority of powers require at least some slot investment. The only reason for them being second class powers is because there are some who have this silly idea that these powers ( the ones generally called bad,trash, power tax etc) should be as they are. While often making use of those pool powers well known as strong enough to be vital to builds. Hasten is obviously the frontrunner. We have been able to perma it almost the entire life of the game on live( except during the period after ED, and before the rise of sets, though even then 3 SOs in hasten will get it to perma or near enough as to not matter)).

 

Yet Hasten is not as alone in its awesomeness as many think. Air Superiority and Hover from fly are both so good and widely used Ive met many in game that still take sorcery for mystic flight(for flavor) and still grab the other 2 above powers from the flight pool, as flying without them seems almost pointless to no few Ive met in game, and I have a PB that wanted the cool magical fly visual effects so yeah I wasted my PBs inherent fly advantage for flavor. Guy still rocks pretty hard so I dont stress, as when a PB goes perma light form they actually have too many power options.

 

Then there is Stealth/grant invis. Stealth was always popular to pair with Superspeed for lvl 14 full stealth builds to fit in recall friend for fast TF leader builds. A great many of my live runs on original posi, that never was that hard, used this pool combo to make short cutting through the hordes of Vahz.

 

Really the bad powers in pools, mostly have always been the attacks. too long of animations like flurry and jump kick. Or just too little return even 6 slotted with attacks like boxing and kick. Thankfully with cross punch, the early attacks actually to feel good enough to warrant being use at least for flavor builds without feeling like major self gimpage( fun fact my trying to be as human as possible builds often do take these attacks because of their weak nature ironically enough))

 

The only factor should be at what level these attacks become accessible. And they should not simply be weaker then attacks from primary sets like blaster and scrapper. Really if we want build diversity then we need to make people be able to go Hm you know I dont really see my guy using a fire sword, Id rather punch people and kick them in the teeth. Their 2ndary aspects should be as strong and reliable as Air Superiority. Their Dmg should be as good as a T2 from blaster/scrappers. Especially when you factor in animation times on some of the pool attacks. Hell the new ones from sorcery and force of will are both such long casting times they could be full on T9 Nukes and I know some who still wouldnt touch them simply because they favor attacks and abilities that trigger the moment you touch the button.

 

Powers are powers, and frankly it shouldnt matter how you will a power slot, that power should be a fun new addition to your characters build, not some thing paltry or lame as to make what should be the big fun in an RPG the leveling up and gaining new powers instead be a blah throw away power pick cant wait till I can take a cool power.

 

Every time we get to pick a new power while leveling should be AWESOME! moment and never a blah who cares moment.

[Replacement]

8 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Hasten is not by any means mandatory.  It's entirely possible to play without it, let alone without it being perma.
 

*Tries to think of a single worthless power I've ever selected from a pool.*  *Comes up blank.*  Less useful than some?  Sure.  Worthless?  No.

The problem is less one of the powers, and more one of the playerbase's fervent minmaxing.

 

7 hours ago, Monos King said:

That's really only because players have made it that way, right? I don't actually need hasten for any of my builds. Depending on your priorities some abilities will be more useful than others.

 

Hastens definitely super useful but it's not like that makes all other pools useless by comparison or that they all have to be as potent as it is.

To be clear...

Yes, the powers I speak of, like Jump Kick, perform a purpose. They just do it terribly. They are so far down the power spectrum that I label them near-worthless.

 

Hasten is obscene and we all know that it doesn't belong. I'm not advocating we nerf it (but I wish SCORE had during the dark days), and I'm not advocating we bring other Pool powers up to Hasten's stupid level. But they should be made generally useful.

 

@Doc_Scorpion When the topic at hand is about game balance, bringing out your pitchforks against min/maxers is unhelpful. If an avid RPer logs on one day and Boxing is actually good, they will not be negatively impact. If they need a character or a particular power to suck for their concept, they can run without enhancements.

[Monos King]

49 minutes ago, Replacement said:

They just do it terribly. They are so far down the power spectrum that I label them near-worthless.

Well I haven't been apart of any pool power conversations before and I find it interesting so here's how I've seen the placement of pool powers.

 

I always thought they were simply thematically potent. You know, something like hasten being really good because super speed is a much coveted, much esteemed power. The same with sorcery, which gets Rune of Protection, and presence which gets unrelenting (those last two were in the original dev plans so I include them). Then there's something like fighting, which would obviously pale in comparison to our super-powered combat like super strength or martial arts, so it sucks until the last power.

 

I also thought most of the travels existed solely to offer transportation, and the first few powers were more like a mandatory step to sustain a sense progression in the game. Slow, steady hover as you like learned to fly. Low, lax jumps as you gained control. Utility seemed completely secondary. 

 

So while I think there are abilities other than hasten that are useful from pools, I'm pretty sure the pools that are lacking always existed for the sake of the end tier abilities, the early abilities being just progress steps. Changing that might start having a lot of pools be replacements for actual primary and secondary powers.

 

And if that's the case, we're discussing making pools alternative abilities rather than supplemental ones, which is also an interesting conversation.

[Replacement]

@Monos King if I understand you right, you're saying it makes sense for some powers to be lackluster because their fiction is less super? I have a lot of counterpoints to that but I don't want to presume too much.  Suffice it to say, if that was the logic, Cryptic was horribly inconsistent in said logic. Like why is Kick bad but Storm Kick is billed as equivalent to Super strength? Why is Hasten absurdly good but Flurry (from the same Flash pool!) is so bad it's usually forgotten even in conversations about how bad Pool attacks are?

 

Regardless, I want to call attention to your final line:

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

And if that's the case, we're discussing making pools alternative abilities rather than supplemental ones, which is also an interesting conversation.

This is a really good point. I think it's worth keeping this in mind when we discuss with others. Obviously, I prefer alternative, because "supplemental" only makes the cut if it's succeeding at its job - I want to make concept characters and the game mechanics should do their best not to punish me for doing so. If Flurry supplements nothing but the fiction of my character, it can be safely buffed without ruining anyone's fiction. If I take it in place of Jacob's Ladder? So what? That's increased build diversity.

[oedipus_tex]

Hasten is basically a grandfathered required power. I see arguments sometimes about builds not "needing" Hasten but IMO this is short sighted because eventually you'll run into enemies that have -Recharge (like Arachnos) and Hasten's +70 recharge is better Recharge Debuff Resistance than actual Recharge Debuff Resistance in most cases. 

 

Making Hasten inherent would likely to lead to all kinds of unintended problems, so its probably best it stay where it is, a defacto required power.

Edited March 19, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[tidge]

16 hours ago, ABlueThingy said:

But I think the community needs to decide what the pool powers... are... or should be.  Decide and go from there.  Otherwise a lot of these discussions are not very fruitful.

My thoughts about Pool powers vary depending on the character I am designing. Often, I am looking for a supplemental power that fits the need or concept. Occasionally I am looking for an extra attack. Many times I'm simply looking for powers to act as mules for IOs.

 

I can't decide what I want (in general) from the pools, but I know what I like when I see it.

 

The only coherent thought I can muster is this: I like that the Pools (including Epic and Patron) offer a 'taste' of other AT power choices to builds that would otherwise (for most characters) not get that taste.

 

A bonus incoherent thought: The biggest outlier (right now) for the power pools is IMO Teleportation. Long Range Teleport had become worthless *before* instant access to SG bases, and Team Teleport would probably more disliked than Group Fly (if possible)... if I ever saw anyone use it. What really makes it an outlier IMO is that the sole PvE power of Teleport Foe is so... (at best, depending on the situation) blah. It has a relatively long animation time (with a To Hit check) with no extra effect whatsoever.

[Monos King]

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

Like why is Kick bad but Storm Kick is billed as equivalent to Super strength? Why is Hasten absurdly good but Flurry (from the same Flash pool!) is so bad it's usually forgotten even in conversations about how bad Pool attacks are?

Well it does make sense to me, but I'm not against making some of the pool powers less suck.

 

I did address the storm kick thing though, being a martial arts master for whatever mystical or elite means is definitely beyond the likes of just fighting. My theory is that that pool just existed to give the non-damage non melees some moves for thematic purpose before the desired res/def buffs. Or just fluff if you want an extra attack.

 

Flurry shouldn't be as bad as it is lol, although it is pretty good in PvP. But if my theory of pools is right, since the travels were the objective that's still why flurry sucks. I know what they were trying to do; since speedsters are known to hit fast but not strong. It really does affirm they made it for thematic purpose beyond anything else, and deliberately wanted the first moves to suck, with hasten being that odd outlier. It's silly it sucks that much though.

 

So it's likely  moves are bad right now from pools because 1)  their fiction deems them less potent 2) they just exist as thematic supplements (besides PvP where most of them actually do deal good damage and such). Just look at cross punch. It isn't until the final level of fighting you unlock it, and it's literally just Sweeping Cross from Street Justice with some +acc and +rech. No melee would ever actually turn in their primary moves for a pool variant, because in their current state, they aren't alternative abilities. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Monos King

[Chris24601]

15 hours ago, Monos King said:

That's really only because players have made it that way, right? I don't actually need hasten for any of my builds. Depending on your priorities some abilities will be more useful than others.

 

Hastens definitely super useful but it's not like that makes all other pools useless by comparison or that they all have to be as potent as it is.

I know I certainly didn't need it on my Archery/Tactical Arrow build (101% global recharge without Hasten). My snap shot recharges in 0.64 seconds; fast enough you could almost just chain it with itself. My snipe is up every 4 seconds. I can stack Electrified Net Arrow with itself 8 times for a Mag 24 immobilize (ice arrow I can stack with itself to Mag 12)... and its slotted with a damage set, not immobilize.

 

Once your attacks are recharging faster than other powers' animation times, I feel its utterly counter-productive to make it any faster, because you're having to give up other useful tools.

 

At a certain point you're just chasing bigger (er, smaller) numbers for the sake of better numbers, not because those numbers actually help.

 

Frankly, if it were up to me, I'd change Hasten to be in the vein of Willpower's Strength of Will; drop the base recharge down to 300 seconds, but also ignore all buffs and enhancements to recharge. Then, after all the heads have exploded and been duct taped back together, see what the resulting high-end metagame looks like in re-balancing everything else (including the power pools).

[MTeague]

I don't think pool attacks, generally speaking, should be better than your primary / secondary attacks unless you are an AT that was generally meant to have low damage to begin with. 

 

Case in point, I have Beast/Empath MM that uses Kick, Boxing, and Crosspunch, because those are DIRT CHEAP (endurance wise) compared to standard MM direct attacks, and its fun being a kickboxing Empath, and it keeps me in range of my doggos so I can do Tankermind tricks.  But that's on an MM.  And I have all three attacks to synergize them up.  But it would be crazy if say, Kick, by itself, was better than an attack in my Spines stalker's primary tree.  

 

Now, pool powers that are NOT attacks.... those can vary quite a bit.  Hasten in not actually must-have, but it's *really* nice for a lot of character concepts and +Recharge is just crazy good for any character with really good powers on long cooldowns.  But on the flip side.... Presence?  Is... um... well.... chock full of fertilizer... but one or two of my characters have sucked it up and dealt with it, because character concept demanded that they have a self-rez on tap, and they had no other to get one on a short enough cooldown to satisfy me.  Leadership buffs are just excellent across the board, even more so on Defenders with the extra buff %.  Medicine can be very nice on a Defense based build where you can actually USE Aid Self without being interrupted, and it's a nice option if you want to have a little bit of backup power to something that's 100% debuffing like Trick Arrow, or if you have extra power slots to throw around on a melee and you want to be able to rez a squishy after you go all scrapperlock and you're last man standing with dead enemies and friends all around you.  🙂

Edited March 20, 2020 by MTeague

[tidge]

15 hours ago, MTeague said:

 But on the flip side.... Presence?  Is... um... well.... chock full of fertilizer... but one or two of my characters have sucked it up and dealt with it, because character concept demanded that they have a self-rez on tap, and they had no other to get one on a short enough cooldown to satisfy me. 

 

I have a great appreciation for the Presence pool, even though only three (different) powers from the pool will be useful for most of my toons. My complaint is that in order to get both the final two powers it is necessary to pick up two other powers. If my toons can take aggro, the AoE Provoke is better than some primary/secondary taunts. Alternatively the Pacify works wonders in tough 1-on-1 fights when toons that aren't so tough need a breather. The PBAoE Invoke Panic is a great control for toons in the middle of large groups. Unrelenting is crazy good, especially for characters with high +Recharge. The sad choice is the single-target Intimidate... it isn't terrible when leveling up, but by end game (like many single target immobs) it is generally a waste of slots (and clicks).

 

In addition to the drawback of having to pick 2 of Pacify/Provoke/Intimidate in order to get Invoke Panic and/or Unrelenting, none of the first three power choices offer good IO mules or even particularly great set choices.  The lack of good IO choices for the first three powers is one of the reasons I wish we could get a PVP or Purple IO sets for Taunt and Fear which include some sort of proc other than "% Damage". I will say that 5-slotting the Fear sets isn't bad, but the real gem is 6-slotting Preventive Maintenance is Unrelenting.

 

Zepp's suggestion (allowing the 4th pick with only 1 previous power, and the 5th pick with only 2 previous powers) is music to my ears.