What would be the highest DPS troller?

[Makobolite]

Would it be plants/storm?

[Without_Pause]

Solo or a team? I don't see how /kin isn't the winner in a team situation.

[Makobolite]

2 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Solo or a team? I don't see how /kin isn't the winner in a team situation.

Thinking about it in terms of solo capacity

[Coyote]

Illusion/Storm for single-target.

Plant/Storm for AoE.

Fire/Storm for a mix of both.

 

/Kinetics is also a very good choice for Plant, since if you're looking for that you're probably looking for AoE, so you're probably playing with large mob sizes.

 

Grav is also a good contender, and Grav/Storm handles both single-target and AoE well (since it uses Wormhole to leverage Tornado and Lightning Storm's small-radius AoEs into actually being... AoE). Grav/Traps is also solid in both AoE and ST, with Grav's single-target damage backed up by Wormholing spawns into Trip Mine/Poison Gas Trap/Caltrops/Acid Mortar/little green elves 😉 . When Wormhole is up, it's great, with the downside being that you're really depending on teleporting mobs into the kill area, so it's dependent upon Wormhole's 90-second recharge.

[Without_Pause]

Fire should still win out. I might still lean on /kin still being the ideal. Not to knock /storm or even plant, but Fire/kins are #1 in player usage with having roughly 3x the next build. Yes, those are created for farming a number of times, but in that case damage is what's important and the OP isn't asking for overall soloist, etc.

[Hjarki]

57 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Fire should still win out. I might still lean on /kin still being the ideal. Not to knock /storm or even plant, but Fire/kins are #1 in player usage with having roughly 3x the next build. Yes, those are created for farming a number of times, but in that case damage is what's important and the OP isn't asking for overall soloist, etc.

Popularity doesn't translate into power.

 

For single target, Illusion/Storm is definitely the winner on pylon tests. So there's no real question there.

 

For multi-target, there's no similar compendium of clear times. However, looking at Fire/Kin asteroid farming videos, I can frankly say that it's not the 'power build' people believe it to be. You've got Defender builds that can clear the asteroid in half the time they take.

 

The problem is that Kinetics is (a) difficult to slot and (b) doesn't buff the Controller much. While Fulcrum Shift is incredible on a Scrapper or Stalker, it's not all that impressive on a low +damage cap archetype like Controller - especially once you realize that 40%+ of your damage is coming from procs anyway. Debuff sets like Storm actually amplify your damage to a greater extent.

 

I think I can say with confidence that any Illusion/* build isn't going to be particularly good at farming due to the lack of AE. Between Plant/* and Fire/*, I think it's a tough call. But there's no question in my mind that */Storm beats */Kinetics hands down.

[Without_Pause]

The problem with a  pylon test is it is a single unmovable(to my knowledge) target. Ill/storm is going to knock stuff all over the place in terms of missions which in turn lowers its DPS. Also, DPS is damage/second. Nothing there specifically states what is being looked as is the best single target damage. Even if Ill/storm puts out the highest single target damage via a pylon, that still doesn't create a realistic test of what is happening in a mission where there are mobs. Defender speed is irrelevant when the topic is about controllers. Kin isn't difficult to slot. It gains less from IOs than other sets do. I concede that point. Fire/kin or /storm is going to put out the highest in mission DPS since one could crank the diff setting to x8 and run with it. 

[Nightmarer 2]

17 hours ago, Makobolite said:

Would it be plants/storm?

I'd say Fire/Kin is still highest damage dealer tbh

[Makobolite]

5 hours ago, Coyote said:

Illusion/Storm for single-target.

Plant/Storm for AoE.

Fire/Storm for a mix of both.

 

/Kinetics is also a very good choice for Plant, since if you're looking for that you're probably looking for AoE, so you're probably playing with large mob sizes.

 

Grav is also a good contender, and Grav/Storm handles both single-target and AoE well (since it uses Wormhole to leverage Tornado and Lightning Storm's small-radius AoEs into actually being... AoE). Grav/Traps is also solid in both AoE and ST, with Grav's single-target damage backed up by Wormholing spawns into Trip Mine/Poison Gas Trap/Caltrops/Acid Mortar/little green elves 😉 . When Wormhole is up, it's great, with the downside being that you're really depending on teleporting mobs into the kill area, so it's dependent upon Wormhole's 90-second recharge.

Hmm. Illu Storm looks like the choice if its also versus a hard target, AV/GM, I know traps is a good thing too but just thought about what would be a troller where i could dish out the most damage.

[oedipus_tex]

I haven't run actual numbers but Plant/Kinetics is probably the best for AoE with Fire/Kin either slightly ahead or behind. 

 

Any set with a Confusion power is always going to be hard to talk about with DPS because it depends on what you're fighting and how much of their rebound damage from hitting each other you include. Also, Plant is at least somewhat at the mercy of the spacing between enemy groups, because it needs Carrion Creepers to keep up.

[Coyote]

39 minutes ago, Makobolite said:

Hmm. Illu Storm looks like the choice if its also versus a hard target, AV/GM, I know traps is a good thing too but just thought about what would be a troller where i could dish out the most damage.

 

The best AV/GM soloer WILL be Ill/Traps, not /Storm. Storm is a compromise between enough damage for normal missions and enough DoT damage to act as -Regen against AVs, but it will still struggle with some AVs that have ridiculous Resists so you can't out-DPS their Regeneration. Traps doesn't have that problem, since AVs don't get to regenerate (except, I hear, the Crimson Prototype?).

[Zeraphia]

Ill/Storm is fun but it is a very anti-synergistic combination. In AoE damage, it would fair much better if it had an immob AoE, unfortunately because it doesn't, the "Afraid" mechanics make the enemies run away and scatter from the Nado and LS. 

 

Fire/Storm Dark/Storm and Plant/Storm are extremely synergistic and work very harmoniously with each other, the Immobilize guarantees the high damaging Storm powers are not wasted by mob scatter and allow you to safely attack without taking the damage from enemies. Fire is extraordinary in its ability because it knocks down enemies with kb-> kd  in Bonfire with Nado, overtime ensuring mob death fairly quickly.

 

A much more synergistic variation with Illusion is Illusion/Time, you can proc monster one of its AoE powers (the hold one) and while it may not fire multiple times after initial cast, its initial cast has a very high chance to proc the damage procs giving it considerable AoE, the pets also help the DPS quite a lot and it keeps mobs very tightly knit together. Brings lots of team benefits and can very well take down AV/GM's with -regen and a proc'd out extra hold which is not something that should be lightly passed up by any means.

 

/Storm IMO is not one of the better AV/GM soloers but it is great once you have a team going and you can surge DPS against an AV, without a team and strictly solo, it is quite bad, AV's will run away from you and it is just a mess, not saying it is impossible, but it can be a great source of frustration.

[Hjarki]

2 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

The best AV/GM soloer WILL be Ill/Traps, not /Storm. Storm is a compromise between enough damage for normal missions and enough DoT damage to act as -Regen against AVs, but it will still struggle with some AVs that have ridiculous Resists so you can't out-DPS their Regeneration. Traps doesn't have that problem, since AVs don't get to regenerate (except, I hear, the Crimson Prototype?).

A level 54 AV regenerates ~100/sec. So a power that floors regen is simply the equivalent of +100 dps (not subject to buffs or debuffs). Traps also takes all of the situational issues Storm runs across and ramps them up to 11 with slow, often interruptible activations that need to be made on top of an AV.

 

22 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Ill/Storm is fun but it is a very anti-synergistic combination. In AoE damage, it would fair much better if it had an immob AoE, unfortunately because it doesn't, the "Afraid" mechanics make the enemies run away and scatter from the Nado and LS. 

The main virtue of Tornado and Lightning Storm isn't the damage they deal, but what they can slot. Between Force Feedback and Soul Allegiance, they provide massive +recharge and +damage to the user. The fact that they also deal damage is nice, but the set is still very strong even if they're just milling around doing nothing.

 

Storm also functions best with long recharge powers used at range.  Fire's grind-them-down-at-point-blank-range toggle methodology isn't very synergistic with this. I think it's very likely that a Fire/Cold would work better than Fire/Storm. You get the +recharge from Bonfire to fuel Cold's powers, while Cold gives you another single target attack with Infrigidate, better endurance management and overall better -resist debuffing than Storm.

 

Both Plant and Dark seem to fit Storm's particulars better than Fire - and both also manage Storm's problems with containing the fight.

 

[EmperorSteele]

Clearly it's Mind/Emp. All this talk of debuffing foes and having pets to buff up is pure malarkey!

[oedipus_tex]

Gravity/Storm probably deserves a mention in here somewhere.

 

I don't track things with pylon damage sessions, but just based on raw stats alone, Gravity/Storm provides very reliable damage from level 2 on, even with minimal slotting. 

 

However, as with all control sets, the damage is situational. Part of the reason Gravity and Storm pair so well is you can Wormhole enemies into your existing storm clouds, increasing the potential damage above other sets, which have to abandon their existing clouds, losing a lot of the DPA. This method isn't 100% sustainable because you eventually run out of enemies to port in. But it's very good on certain maps.

 

I don't know that I'd pick it to solo AVs, tho it may be fine at that. For general purpose mob beatdowns though it's definitely a top contender, probably beat by Fire/ or Plant/Kinetics but little else.

 

One thing to keep in mind about fighting at +4x8 is that minions and lieutenants often become very easy to deal with, so the value of high single target damage to knock out the bosses goes way up. While Grav/Storm doesn't have amazing AoE damage, it has very good single target, regardless of the number of enemies left alive, and when you get down to the final surviving boss, the combo of Lift, Propel, Tornado, and Lightning Storm focused one target brings down even highly resistant enemies very quickly and without any fuss. It actually makes my Dominators jealous.

[Zepp]

On 3/20/2020 at 8:43 AM, Zeraphia said:

Ill/Storm is fun but it is a very anti-synergistic combination. In AoE damage, it would fair much better if it had an immob AoE, unfortunately because it doesn't, the "Afraid" mechanics make the enemies run away and scatter from the Nado and LS.

 

/Storm IMO is not one of the better AV/GM soloers but it is great once you have a team going and you can surge DPS against an AV, without a team and strictly solo, it is quite bad, AV's will run away from you and it is just a mess, not saying it is impossible, but it can be a great source of frustration.

Actually, because of AoE damage, it is an exceptionally synergistic set. The use of fear and kb with -400 threat level allows you to keep large groups of enemies occupied while minimizing enemy attacks. It is a great single-target damage set. Furthermore, /storm is a popular choice for AV/GM soloing because hurricane can basically minimize enemy to-hit. Combine that with high-damage single-target pseudopets (nado and LS) that are extra-efficient at damage against KB-resistant enemies, and you have the best single target solo support set in the game.

[Zeraphia]

56 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Actually, because of AoE damage, it is an exceptionally synergistic set. The use of fear and kb with -400 threat level allows you to keep large groups of enemies occupied while minimizing enemy attacks. It is a great single-target damage set. Furthermore, /storm is a popular choice for AV/GM soloing because hurricane can basically minimize enemy to-hit. Combine that with high-damage single-target pseudopets (nado and LS) that are extra-efficient at damage against KB-resistant enemies, and you have the best single target solo support set in the game.

It can be worked with but it isn't synergistic. Immobolizes allow the powers to reach their highest AoE potential damage, working together well rather than allow the enemies to scatter when they aren't being knock'd down. When speaking AoE, this does not have synergy in comparison to the immobolizes that keep them in place to reach their maximum potential. It has great single target damage, I agree, but if you are not on a team, that AV will move around guaranteed, unlike with other sets that have a much easier time keeping the enemy within the powers maximum potential ranges. 

 

I am not new to this combination nor other /Storm combinations. I'm not disregarding your opinion, but I am pointing out the flaws in this that there are better options for synergy with a storm secondary to reach a live gameplay best AoE performance rather than a pylon.

[Obitus]

34 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

It can be worked with but it isn't synergistic. Immobolizes allow the powers to reach their highest AoE potential damage, working together well rather than allow the enemies to scatter when they aren't being knock'd down. When speaking AoE, this does not have synergy in comparison to the immobolizes that keep them in place to reach their maximum potential. It has great single target damage, I agree, but if you are not on a team, that AV will move around guaranteed, unlike with other sets that have a much easier time keeping the enemy within the powers maximum potential ranges. 

 

I am not new to this combination nor other /Storm combinations. I'm not disregarding your opinion, but I am pointing out the flaws in this that there are better options for synergy with a storm secondary to reach a live gameplay best AoE performance rather than a pylon.

This is well said.  I'll also add, in reply to Zepp, that AVs resist the living crap out ToHit debuffs.  Hurricane is scarcely relevant in that context - and in fact it's less appealing than ever even in normal gameplay, these days. 

 

That isn't a knock on Hurricane so much as it is a commentary on how the other powers in the set (and various other things, like IO DEF bonuses) have changed.  Hurricane is more of a situational utility power now than the crown jewel it used to be.  As Hjarki said, Storm is basically a ranged set.  Hurricane can help you stay at range, but it's usually not worth trying to leverage its debuff proactively, anymore.  At least not at the high end.

 

(Of course it can be ludicrously fun to herd mobs around with Hurricane, and it's worth noting that characters with AoE Immobilize powers have a much easier time doing that.  I love Hurricane, truly; the ranged playstyle just wins, handily, in terms of efficiency.)

Edited March 21, 2020 by Obitus

[Zepp]

49 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

It can be worked with but it isn't synergistic. Immobolizes allow the powers to reach their highest AoE potential damage, working together well rather than allow the enemies to scatter when they aren't being knock'd down. When speaking AoE, this does not have synergy in comparison to the immobolizes that keep them in place to reach their maximum potential. It has great single target damage, I agree, but if you are not on a team, that AV will move around guaranteed, unlike with other sets that have a much easier time keeping the enemy within the powers maximum potential ranges. 

 

I am not new to this combination nor other /Storm combinations. I'm not disregarding your opinion, but I am pointing out the flaws in this that there are better options for synergy with a storm secondary to reach a live gameplay best AoE performance rather than a pylon.

Just to clarify, looking at Ill/SS damaging powers
Spectral Wounds - Single Target

Blind - Single Target

Phantom Army - Single Target

Phantasm - mainly Single Target (although does have a narrow cone)

Gale - Cone (but minimal damage)

Freezing Rain - AoE Patch

Tornado - AoE-ish

Lightning Storm - Single Target

Just to clarify, most Ill/SS damage is single target. Spectral Wounds, Phantom Army, and Phantasm deal illusory damage - meaning it disappears if the enemy is not defeated. Clustering may help Freezing Rain and Tornado (for tight clustering with a KB-KD proc), but it reduces the focus of PA and Phantasm meaning you lose illusory damage. Because SS allows for the spreading of mobs you can get better focus from your PA, Phantasm, Phantasm Decoy, and SW allowing you to defeat enemies before they recover from illusory damage. This means that this combination allows Illusion Control to deal more actual damage than it does with other secondaries. That is why I stated that it is synergistic.

 

Furthermore, Illusion Control's primary method of "control" is aggro control. The PA generate aggro while SI and GI reduce personal threat by 400% and team/Phantasm threat by 200%. This means that the Ill/SS Troller can manage aggro while offering high damage. This works on AVs and GMs as well. If you are working with a team then you can use SM and GI to get 200% threat reduction for yourself and your team while offering better defense and resistance. The sets act very differently from other sets in the game and so they need a different mindset. That being said, it is a great single target damage combo with great synergy.

 

[Coyote]

Most AVs don't run from Ill/Storm's effects, because the Taunt from PA is strong enough to overcome the Fear effect. But when PA drops, they will usually start moving, and you hope that the next PA grabs hold of them and drags them screaming back to die. Which is usually the case, but sometimes you fight a flying AV (Macomber, Reichsman), and it's "chase the fox" time.

[Frosticus]

There are a number of AVs that will flee far and wide. 

Nosferatu is an example that will run no matter how many times PA hits him. 

 

Tohit debuffs are of very little value against AVs. Even less so against +level AVs. to the point that manuevers may  become better protection than your tohit debuff. 

 

Keep in mind that storm has limited survivability if PA doesnt take all of the attention. Many other sets provide significant -dam debuffing so if they get loose their damage is much more manageable until PA can require them. 

 

[Sir Myshkin]

 

On 3/18/2020 at 10:23 PM, Makobolite said:

Would it be plants/storm?

For such a tiny box [question] it sure packed a lot of opinion in it.

 

Turns Zamboni on and starts smoothing over the ice.

 

Perspective is going to matter for you, personally. As you can see there's a lot of... consideration for play style when it comes to the choices you make in this game. If you build to a set's strengths, many of its weaknesses are easy to deal with, or flat out ignore. In some cases some of those weaknesses can even be altered or corrected with its paired set. Ultimately you've got to play what interests you the most because not every build fits all personalities, even if it's "the best of the best, with honors, sir!"

 

Plant has some good AoE built into it, and Carrion Creepers is a monster ability that just keeps chugging throughout its duration, even when you move to the next spawn. Storm has a lot of crowd-impacting abilities and if you play to that strength you can do some pretty amazing things. I've played Storm/Energy Defender for a considerable amount of time not too long ago and it is a Monster on the battlefield, and has absolutely zero immobilize in its toolkit, but has absolutely no issue dusting any spawn that stands in its way. Get a couple of KB > KD covnersion IO's, build in some good proc utility, an Achille's Heel, and back it up with Gale (KD Converted), and you'll be dropping enemies on their backs all day long.

 

Is it the "Best" for the choice of damage? Honestly, the value indicator there is so infinitesimally tiny, that it doesn't really matter. We're talking about the differences of seconds from one spawn to the next. Then when it comes to AV's, well, I mean, if they're going to run, they're going to run, but in my experience just don't use Snow Storm (it'll pretty much guarantee they run, plus it's kinda bleh anyway <-- Opinion, YMMV), and just let loose on it. I've tagged a fair few AV's, and Storm does a tremendous amount of damage all on its wee-lonesome, plus you'll be stacking in some of your own ST and Carrion Creepers. You'll be VERY busy.

 

In the end, if you don't like it, well, okay, see all of the above posts for suggestions on alternative options!

[WitchofDread]

Probably an unpopular opinion but where does electric control fall in terms of damage?

[Coyote]

On the lower side. Jolting Chain can be procced to get another damage power, and getting Endurance back helps with the usual Controller "I don't do enough damage per Endurance" issue so you don't get tired as quickly.

 

But it's still not high damage per power, and it's not fast power animations, so the best than can be said for it is "slow and steady". It gets a nice Confuse to help with killing but not until the late 20s, unlike Plant and Ice. It doesn't get -Defense like Earth, but does have endurance efficiency going for it.

 

All in all, it's bottom 3 with Earth and Ice, maybe a bit above those two but not by much.

[Sir Myshkin]

3 hours ago, WitchofDread said:

Probably an unpopular opinion but where does electric control fall in terms of damage?

If you scaled them holistically, top down and accounting for their proc potential:

1. Illusion
2. Plant
3. Dark
4. Fire
5. Gravity
6. Electric
7. Earth
8. Mind
9. Ice

If we scaled into just Single Target performance alone, Gravity would jump up that list to fall under Plant, and Mind somewhere above or below Dark and/or Fire. There is a pretty good selection of damage procs that can be placed in many Controller sets, but Mind and Ice are the two that see the least amount of potential, and between the two Ice is pretty far divided from all of the other primaries both from a damage perspective, and a proc perspective. Earth and Electric are pretty much right in line with each other (when Procs are included, without procs Electric ends up being better just on pet performance alone), and thus end up being close to Fire in potential. Dark and Plant (again because of raw damage, and proc potential) are a bit above all the others, and then Illusion is the top by another wide margin.

 

It'd really break down more like this:

Illusion

Plant, Dark, Fire

Gravity, Electric, Earth

Mind, Ice

 

That's all from a tested and number analyzed perspective, not an opinion perspective.

 

*I wanted to add, being a bit quick on the submit button, that I have seen some circumstances where Plant has been pushed with the appropriate secondary to do some things that gives it arguable comparison to Illusion on a damage scale, and that there are a few circumstances where plant might just be a better call than Illusion depending on the secondary it gets paired with.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Sir Myshkin
*edit note in