Difficulty in CoH: Community Discussion

[Galaxy Brain]

6 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Red side's design is extremely dreary and depressing. The bump there would have to astronomical for me to ever step foot in there on a regular basis. Same with the Shard. (You navigation point is . . . well on point.)

Redside is an acquired taste for sure, and at first it was on the right track with robbing banks / etc giving temp powers and infamy. But then blieside got similar bonuses + the special redside ATs were unlocked and there was little reason to put up with it. I feel like being a villain should be more lucrative than being heroic, following what happens with the tutorial level of all things where your first choice to steal Blue Spectrum's power gives you a buff. Yeah, youre a dick but you are rewarded for being evil. Robbing places should give tons of bonus infamy, etc.

 

Goldside has some of the prettiest areas and that is empty due to percieved difficulty as well. Since it is so specialized, starting a character as a praetorian and running through the story there could give perks as well. 

 

Essentially my goal with this line of thinking is that the current "challenges" are not popular as there are easier alternatives for the same or better (per run) outcomes. Adjusting what you get for being villainous, a praetorian, or so on, will not shift everybody to being that way but it will certainly make it more attractive and gain more players and attention. 

[Wavicle]

If you ask me, the mistake was allowing lvl 50s to progress their Incarnate powers outside of DA, iTrials, and other specifically Incarnate based content.

[golstat2003]

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Redside is an acquired taste for sure, and at first it was on the right track with robbing banks / etc giving temp powers and infamy. But then blieside got similar bonuses + the special redside ATs were unlocked and there was little reason to put up with it. I feel like being a villain should be more lucrative than being heroic, following what happens with the tutorial level of all things where your first choice to steal Blue Spectrum's power gives you a buff. Yeah, youre a dick but you are rewarded for being evil. Robbing places should give tons of bonus infamy, etc.

 

Goldside has some of the prettiest areas and that is empty due to percieved difficulty as well. Since it is so specialized, starting a character as a praetorian and running through the story there could give perks as well. 

 

Essentially my goal with this line of thinking is that the current "challenges" are not popular as there are easier alternatives for the same or better (per run) outcomes. Adjusting what you get for being villainous, a praetorian, or so on, will not shift everybody to being that way but it will certainly make it more attractive and gain more players and attention. 

Good point. I'm curious though at what level you could actually get more folks to run content their via incentives. Aka how much a reward would you have to implement before you're able to get folks regularly running teams on Goldside. One idea is allowing folks to go from Goldside to any of the other sides freely without the story line restrictions.

 

How empty it is all the time is one of the reasons I made ONE character on Goldside when I got to HC months ago and have not since. Nothing really to do with the difficulty and more to do with no one being there.

[golstat2003]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

If you ask me, the mistake was allowing lvl 50s to progress their Incarnate powers outside of DA, iTrials, and other specifically Incarnate based content.

Unfortunately that ship has sailed. I think that was done during the Score years since they were never ever going to have the resources to build enough Incarnate based content. EDIT: And there is a question if there are enough resources for the current team of volunteers also.

 

EDIT: To be honest all these extra difficulty requests and incarnate content I don't see happening any time soon . . . like will probably ever happen 5 years from now soon. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by golstat2003

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Unfortunately that ship has sailed. I think that was done during the Score years since they were never ever going to have the resources to build enough Incarnate based content. EDIT: And there is a question if there are enough resources for the current team of volunteers also.

Maybe it wouldn't be too much to ask that the effectiveness of Non Incarnate rewarding content in advancing Incarnate powers be SCALED BACK (not removed entirely).

Then ADD Incarnate content levels of reward to some existing content (Shadow Shard, perhaps elsewhere).

Perhaps then people would run this content more, for the rewards, and it is more difficult than standard content.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Wavicle

[Solarverse]

43 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

There are a few, for example @Solarverse literally does just want an Issue 5-7 server which would be a no IOs, no Incarnates type deal (though I would personally add in the STF as it was back then just to balance out the LRSF even if IOs were introduced in the same Issue as it was, so both sides can get Synthetic Hami-Os).

You are correct. I was perfectly happy with HO's filling your slots being the actual end game, the final mark of your hero. When there was nothing left to do but help lowbies after that. It freed you up to explore other avenues of the game with alts. I never got bored because even after maxing out a character, I could simply switch to an alt and I did not have to spend such insane amounts of cash or time maxing a character out. Teams (imo) were essential in playing together and filling the gap that the other classes did not have. For me personally, it flowed much better and left little room for players to just nuke and run nuke and run and left little room for players to run off solo in the mission...there were severe consequences back then for doing so...such as death. Blasters in those days did not jump ahead of the Tank and destroy everything before the Tank could actually get there. Players, even throughout the leveling experience did not want to play content at +0, because, well, +0 did not exist. Granted, I could do without the herding Tanks, but honestly those types of Tanks were far and few between mainly because they were only good for Slashing/Lethal damage, if they went up against anything else, they crumbled.

 

I also miss that you had to achieve certain levels to unlock certain goodies. Like travel powers at level 14. Your cape at level 20. Your Auras at level 30. These were goals the game no longer has. The only real goal now is to reach the end as fast as possible and then go back and get all your badges later. Everything is given to you at the beginning of the game. You no longer have to achieve a milestone to get your cape, your travel powers or your aura.

 

For me, those days freed up much more time to play other classes and try out new powers, it promoted playing alts more than I think it does now, because it did not take so long to max out your build. All you had to do was log on for a Hammi Raid here and there, and then it was back to lowbie land.

 

My fondest memories of the game came before IO's and before City of Villains. It got even worse for me personally after they allowed Heroes and Villains to be one and the same. The mixing of the two just really killed things for me personally.

 

I get that most players do not feel the way that I do, and that's okay. I'm just a man who has been left in time. I hear that happens when you get old....the rest of the world passes you up and you lose touch. I guess my day is over and now I am one of those old men who say, "Back in my day..."

Edited March 31, 2020 by Solarverse

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Maybe it wouldn't be too much to ask that the effectiveness of Non Incarnate rewarding content in advancing Incarnate powers be SCALED BACK (not removed entirely).

Then ADD Incarnate content levels to some existing content (Shadow Shard, perhaps elsewhere).

Perhaps then people would run this content more, for the rewards, and it is more difficult than standard content.

I think the content would have to be there FIRST before any scaleback is asked for. (Not that I completely agree any scaleback is needed)

 

Also please NO. ANYWHERE but the Shadow Shard. That zone is a hot mess that will take possibly years to improve.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by golstat2003

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, golstat2003 said:

I think the content would have to be there FIRST before any scaleback is asked for. (Not that I completely agree any scaleback is needed)

 

Also please NO. ANYWHERE but the Shadow Shard. That zone is a hot mess that will take possibly years to improve.

 

 

I agree, new content first.

And yes, absolutely the Shadow Shard, but it would have to be improved in some ways.  More portals, etc, etc.

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

I agree, new content first.

And yes, absolutely the Shadow Shard, but it would have to be improved in some ways.  More portals, etc, etc.

If it's improved FIRST, sure. And not just portals. That zones were made in a time when mmo designers thought more space equals better, to have folks logged in longer.  That time has passed.

 

The zones need to be condensed to make travel there easier. (And to make the lives of the devs building the content there easier without them tearing their hair out.)

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by golstat2003

[Galaxy Brain]

45 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

If it's improved FIRST, sure. And not just portals. That zones were made in a time when mmo designers thought more space equals better, to have folks logged in longer.  That time has passed.

 

The zones need to be condensed to make travel there easier. (And to make the lives of the devs building the content there easier without them tearing their hair out.)

 

 

TBH, they could (again speaking in relative terms cus who knows what weird ramifications getting rid of geometry might do) literally just delete 2/3rds of each map and condense everything together and call it a day, with massive normal islands to work on with only a few portals / jumps.

[Blastit]

I think the shadow shard should be huge, spacious and weird to navigate in the service of style.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, Blastit said:

I think the shadow shard should be huge, spacious and weird to navigate in the service of style.

It still could be, but not obnoxiously so.

 

Or at the very least, keep a lot of the "outskirts" vast, but condense any travel needed for missions / story to a much more convenient area.

[Snarky]

I agree with the largeness. I went badge hunting all shards on saturday. It took....a while.  But the experience felt right

[Coyotedancer]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Maybe it wouldn't be too much to ask that the effectiveness of Non Incarnate rewarding content in advancing Incarnate powers be SCALED BACK (not removed entirely).

Then ADD Incarnate content levels of reward to some existing content (Shadow Shard, perhaps elsewhere).

Perhaps then people would run this content more, for the rewards, and it is more difficult than standard content.

 

No. Just... no.

Making the iPowers more accessible was a Good Thing. "Scaling it back" just means "Welcome back to some portion of the grind".   

[Wavicle]

Just now, Coyotedancer said:

 

No. Just... no.

Making the iPowers more accessible was a Good Thing. "Scaling it back" just means "Welcome back to some portion of the grind".   

I completely disagree.  "End game" content should take a LONG TIME. I think Incarnate development obviously goes way too fast.

[Coyotedancer]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I completely disagree.  "End game" content should take a LONG TIME. I think Incarnate development obviously goes way too fast.

And as a mostly-solo, I completely disagree with THAT.

 

Running on an 8-player smash team? Maybe... But it can still be absolutely TEDIOUS when you're doing it on your own.

[ShardWarrior]

8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I completely disagree.  "End game" content should take a LONG TIME. I think Incarnate development obviously goes way too fast.

The problem here in the present state of things is that there is not enough Incarnate content for progression to take a long time.  Given the limited number of iTrials, running them as the only source of incarnate xp and items would get very old very fast. 

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

And as a mostly-solo, I completely disagree with THAT.

 

Running on an 8-player smash team? Maybe... But it can still be absolutely TEDIOUS when you're doing it on your own.

I am also a mostly soloer and while I understand what you mean I feel like we've gone too far in the other direction.  A balance must be struck and this ain't it.

[Coyotedancer]

Personally, I think the situation we're in actually is a pretty good balance point. 

 

You just can't balance progress around what an 8-player wrecking ball can accomplish. They always have and always will blow through things at a ridiculous rate, rather it's Taskforces or iProgress. If it's already tedious and time-consuming for us as-is now, then reducing it enough to slow the smash teams down, say, to the pace of a current 4-player average would leave everyone ELSE moving about as quickly as a snail in cement.

 

I can't agree with that. I suspect a lot of us couldn't.... We're all older than we were in the Live days. A lot of us have more demands eating into our "fun time". That's why massive time-sinks are pretty much out of favor even in modern games. They're simply not practical for players.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Solarverse]

10 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

We're all older than we were in the Live days. A lot of us have more demands eating into our "fun time".

Speak for yourself!

 

♪♫I don't wanna grow up! I'm a CoH kid! They got a million archetypes that I can play with! From Blasters and Tankers to Brutes and Defenders, it's the biggest MMO there is! I wanna be a CoH kid!♫♪

 

 

[Coyotedancer]

17 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Speak for yourself!

 

♪♫I don't wanna grow up! I'm a CoH kid! They got a million archetypes that I can play with! From Blasters and Tankers to Brutes and Defenders, it's the biggest MMO there is! I wanna be a CoH kid!♫♪

 

 

 

Adulting sucks. XP

[Yomo Kimyata]

I’m seeing a lot of “let’s encourage [certain behavior] by offering more rewards.”

 

What else can possibly be offered?  Even with the nerf to lvl 49 farming, inf and merits and incarnate godlike powers are currently thrown around like they are nothing.  Even the godliest items and achievements are trivially easy to get.

 

 

[Coyotedancer]

Badges?

[Yomo Kimyata]

13 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Badges?

I thought so too, but the some of the hardcore badgers get really bent at the idea of new badges that aren’t trivially easy for them to get.

[Heraclea]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Goldside has some of the prettiest areas and that is empty due to percieved difficulty as well. Since it is so specialized, starting a character as a praetorian and running through the story there could give perks as well.

Difficulty is not the only, and probably not even the main issue with Praetorian content. 

 

Now there are certain ways to make content 'difficult' that do not scale well, and actively discourage teaming.  Dark Astoria Tsoos are probably the most familiar example of 'difficult' content that turns tedious and frustrating when you get the larger spawns that come with larger teams.  The minions are all spamming Kinetics debuffs, making it too hard to move, while lieutenant class healers with other debuffs are poofing in and out.  Doable solo, awful for large teams.   This sort of thing puts a priority on preemptive damage to one-shot as much as possible.   Night Ward and many other goldside mobs like Seers and Ghouls are annoying but playable solo, but which become extremely tiresome when encountered at the spawn size you'd get with a team of 8.  Too many minions spamming the same kind of debuffs and mez is a recipe for unplayability. 

 

The other problem in Praetoria that isn't there on either hero or villain side is that the alignment system makes it harder for you to just join friends and run their missions.  There are places you aren't allowed to go based on your alignment.  There's nothing like newspaper or radio missions for teams to gather on an ad-hoc basis and do together.