Make alternative IO sets to Luck of the Gambler

[Troo]

Oh geez.

2 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Perma____ IS a requirement if you want to play well. And if you don't want to play well, then why are you playing at all? For fun? What fun is not playing to the best you're capable of? 

That is subjective and therefor really tough to convincingly say it 'IS a requirement'.

 

I do not have requirements to play well, I do of course have preferences.

We can play well even if we use a sub-optimal build, can't we? 

 

There are a lot of little questions in your reply. I will try to address them concisely (just to keep it short, not to be curt). 

• do you chime in that enhancements aren't required? Yes. (IOs, purples, ATOs, HOs, etc are optional even though some a super helpful)
• then why are you playing at all? For fun? Yes.
• What fun is not playing to the best you're capable of? Video games can still be fun even if we never get to the final screen.
• But - it's already about choice, as you say, so why not make it a choice? Umm.. It is already a choice, maybe this was rhetorical.

 

[XaoGarrent]

The recharge meta exists, entirely because designing every single power in the game with and around a cooldown was one of the biggest mistakes the devs made in their original design philosophy. The devs and players both spent years trying to work around this (as well as the outdated at time of release "mana" system), because the constant downtime makes for frankly jilted and frustrating gameplay. Hence why "these threads" and the haste threads just keep happening over and over. Same goes for the tanker "argo" cap threads, pretty shoehorned, awkward and arbitrary how they hardcapped agro, but that's a different discussion.

 

Being almost DECADES in to this decision, not much can really be done about the core problem... All that can be done is to minimize its negative impact on the game. So the very least some proliferation should be done just to give people more options of *accomplishing* the recharge meta. LotG and the various recharge incarnate powers wouldn't even exist in the first place if someone somewhere at some point hadn't realized downtime sucks. Even if you ignore that, most players who give any kind of a damn about their builds (none of this is relevant to casuals anyway) wont ignore it.

 

PoE's devs tried nerfing AoE nodes for the same reason, they became completely meta to the point where any spellcaster build incorporated them. Didn't work, people still took every node they could get their hands on, because the nature of the game is that you fight hordes of enemies.

Honestly, if I had been directing the implementation of the IO system, large global bonuses like LotG never would have been part of the IO system, and instead existed on their own special sheet that opens up as you level and can be affordably populated while leveling. Hasten wouldn't have been a click either, but rather a passive with a lower (but still quite significant) bonus, etc, etc. Probably would have made that change when I introduced IOs. Sets would have also all been leveless and scaling, and the player would be encouraged to build and slot them as they level.

 

Then again, if it was my call, a lot of things would be different. The original devs made big mistakes and were too afraid to actually fix those mistakes. Cottage rule and all. It's kinda ridiculous how long it took just to get Blasters, Dominators and Stalkers some serious changes.

This game is rusting and I wish the new devs would start getting a little more ambitious in regards to de-rusting it.

Edited April 10, 2020 by XaoGarrent

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

We can play well even if we use a sub-optimal build, can't we? 

You can play well for what's in your build, sure. But, if you have the resources to play with 45% s/l defense, max HP, and you do not get them and use them - you are not playing well. You're playing half-hearted. You're not invested. You're just goofing off - which is fine - but don't think for a minute you're playing well. 

And the truth is - if a player has the time to read the forums, everyone is capable of having the resources to make the most of their build. 

That's not to say they must. Or that they're of inferior character if they don't. It's to say if you want to play well, you're kidding yourself if you think you are without making the most of your opportunities. 

It's totally up to each player how they want to play. Fun is subjective, I'll stipulate to that. But the notion that you can casually dismiss a good idea because it's just a choice doesn't sit right with me. 

There's a lot of the players who want to do things better, faster, stronger. They want to be super. The original suggestion has no down side, if taken up, other than the price of lotg 7.5% will come down because there will be another option. 

[justicebeliever]

12 minutes ago, Ukase said:

That's not to say they must. Or that they're of inferior character if they don't. It's to say if you want to play well, you're kidding yourself if you think you are without making the most of your opportunities. 

This is really well said, and I can get on board with it.  However, there is a bit of a process to go through with Min/Maxing, and the process requires domain knowledge, time and tools.  So for many casual players, the playstyle is "playing well enough".  And if some choices are easier to digest, despite being sub-optimal, then they are good choices, and the trade off is fair.

 

This of course is my opinion, and i am not suggesting it is fact.  Feel free to disagree

[Infinitum]

On live I sought after perma hasten for some reason but on homecoming I changed my philosophy 2 builds in.

 

On melee I build to the strongpoints of the set first -

defense sets I chase incarnate softcap and high levels of s/l resistance.

 

Resistance sets I chase capping as many res categories as I can and try to also get to 45% melee defense.

 

Hybrid sets like shield I chase incarnate soft cap in vectored defense and at least 50% resistance.

 

Regen, I just don't.   Haha

 

Controllers, blasters, and corrupted I chase 45% and above on ranged and aoe defense.

 

While I do take hasten on my builds - mainly because its a good power and makes my builds more fun, I really only seek to make it perma and make it matter on my trollers - mainly my ill rad for perma phantom army.

 

As far as pool powers go, im pretty predictable.

 

I pick fly hover and afterburner - not to mule but because i love fly, sometimes I 3 slot BotZ for the defense bonuses and forego the LotG bonus. So thats not a prereq either for me.

 

COMBAT JUMPING.  RAWR kitty say maw.  Yeah I have this on every character because its probably the most utilitarian and fun power in the game.  Sometimes I use reactive defenses, sometimes I use LotG.  Again LotG isnt the default winner here for me.

 

Kick tough weave I usually have these on my melee characters.

 

Stealth I usually have this on my squishy characters.

 

Leadership sometimes I pick this when stealth isnt a concern.

 

Hasten, Honestly its a choice on the other builds, but theres nothing else I really want - like I said I'm pretty predictable. Thats not hastens fault.

 

The ones I have tried but dont like.

 

I could see how mystic flight could be a draw and that pool.  But its not really my style.

 

Teleportation - yeah not for me.

 

Medicine, its either not needed or surpassed by what most sets do anyway.

 

Presence - yeah what is it even there for?

 

So if you look at it from my perspective here, why would you pick any of those other loser sets over hasten.

 

Thats not so much that hasten is so good but the other ones suck so hard it could pull a golf ball through a garden hose.  

 

Again thats not indicting hasten, but the crappyness of some of these pools and maybe they need to be upgraded to give us another useful choice that could cut into hasten or combat jumping or the fly pool.

 

Same thing with the set bonuses - we dont need nerfs but more diversity and crappy ones brought in with more options.

 

Maybe more larger + damage to add depth to mitigation instead of + defense or res - kill it faster is your mitigation there.

 

But seriously nerfing hasten or set bonuses is something Carol f'n basken would do.  Lets not be like Carol.

[Razor Cure]

5 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

This game is rusting and I wish the new devs would start getting a little more ambitious in regards to de-rusting it.

How? Without totally pissing of people, no matter what they do. Adding new content, sure. Changing stuff you view (and may be) broken or bad design? That is gonna be chaos.

[Galaxy Brain]

Here y'all go:

 

 

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

12 hours ago, Ukase said:

Uh,,,when it comes down to it, IOs are not required either. Nor are any enhancements. 

If someone posts about the rising costs of enhancements, do you chime in that enhancements aren't required? 

Perma____ IS a requirement if you want to play well. And if you don't want to play well, then why are you playing at all? For fun? What fun is not playing to the best you're capable of? 

I'm sure there are a number who think about the math and the time that has to be spent tweaking a build and say, "No thanks! If I wanted to do math, I'd just" .....or words to that effect. I get it. Making a min/max build isn't for everyone. But - it's already about choice, as you say, so why not make it a choice? 

I don't really want to see other LotG 7.5% equivalents come out, because then the ones I have will drop in value. But, I think them dropping in value would be good for most of the player base. Seems like a win-win to me. 

Oh man lol, ime many min max builders are actually quite terribad player types, especially in the whole team player game. They frequently cause TFs to end up going slower because they try to go rushing off, and do not pull their weight over all because they hyper focus on just DPS, and well Lest they are a nuker they are not out DPSing my nukers and def not out surviving my main blaster, PB, Scrapper, etc etc.

 

And my toons while fine tuned are def not min max meta builds. If all one does is play meta builds then there really is no point in playing because your never playing your character, just a specific collection of abilities based purely on math crunching that without being something the player has actually played and meshed with actual game play will often flounder and fail no matter what the math says.

 

Sure My PB has it and is perma Light Form. My Ill Troller has perma haste and perma PA because that is the reason to be an Ill/Time troller imo. Yes My blaster has it because he long ago on live was among the forerunners of survival non squishy blasters that saw dirt nappers as something to mock and scorn because a blaster should be death walking not death napping.

 

My Stalker doesnt have hasten, doesnt need it. My 3 different WP using builds dont bother with global recharge, just not enough return for the investment, and anyone who thinks a toggle heavy set benefits that much from it is being OCD and putting their feelings above reality.

 

Global Recharge, and Hasten are tools that mesh well with some builds and are at best blah with others. IMO that is good design. The abd design is pool powers in general being made gimp by design because they shouldnt be as good as main powers.

 

And those tools allow us to go outside the box. My blaster has two different attack chains, one single target for big bads, and one aoe for mass mob murder.  I leverage that global recharge to be more then just spam my best aoe one button win.

 

Oh and your last line comes off quite like BS trying to make it sound like your being selfless by admitting youd feel a loss of value to your build investment if access to something in it was made easier.  To me it reeks of bad trolling trying to use the Im on your side and dont want it changed because Id lose something but it must be done for the greater good crap used by those on forums that are best left ignored .

[Ukase]

5 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Oh man lol, ime many min max builders are actually quite terribad player types, especially in the whole team player game. They frequently cause TFs to end up going slower because they try to go rushing off, and do not pull their weight over all because they hyper focus on just DPS, and well Lest they are a nuker they are not out DPSing my nukers and def not out surviving my main blaster, PB, Scrapper, etc etc.

 

And my toons while fine tuned are def not min max meta builds. If all one does is play meta builds then there really is no point in playing because your never playing your character, just a specific collection of abilities based purely on math crunching that without being something the player has actually played and meshed with actual game play will often flounder and fail no matter what the math says.

 

Sure My PB has it and is perma Light Form. My Ill Troller has perma haste and perma PA because that is the reason to be an Ill/Time troller imo. Yes My blaster has it because he long ago on live was among the forerunners of survival non squishy blasters that saw dirt nappers as something to mock and scorn because a blaster should be death walking not death napping.

 

My Stalker doesnt have hasten, doesnt need it. My 3 different WP using builds dont bother with global recharge, just not enough return for the investment, and anyone who thinks a toggle heavy set benefits that much from it is being OCD and putting their feelings above reality.

 

Global Recharge, and Hasten are tools that mesh well with some builds and are at best blah with others. IMO that is good design. The abd design is pool powers in general being made gimp by design because they shouldnt be as good as main powers.

 

And those tools allow us to go outside the box. My blaster has two different attack chains, one single target for big bads, and one aoe for mass mob murder.  I leverage that global recharge to be more then just spam my best aoe one button win.

 

Oh and your last line comes off quite like BS trying to make it sound like your being selfless by admitting youd feel a loss of value to your build investment if access to something in it was made easier.  To me it reeks of bad trolling trying to use the Im on your side and dont want it changed because Id lose something but it must be done for the greater good crap used by those on forums that are best left ignored .

You're entitled to your opinion. 
I never said anything about min-max. I suppose that's my fault for using poor word choices. 
When you state, " ...because a blaster should be death walking not death napping.", it told me that while you may not be min-maxed, (but fine tuned!) you at least understand what a blaster is and how it's played. And you're certainly correct - the player, despite quality of build - can slow things down by trying to be an individual instead of part of a team. I've seen all through the spectrum on this. Some exceptional, some really lousy. 

You say your stalker doesn't need it. I don't know your stalker. I've got a dual blades/reflexes. He doesn't need it either. But, he has it. Faster recharge is the ability to use the longer recharge attacks that dish out more damage more often - at least in theory. Depending on the build, some would have to invest other slots or set bonuses towards endurance recovery to make up for the increased use of endurance that hasten brings. And, with criticals, the faster recharge attacks can certainly make up for some slower recharging more damaging attacks. It all depends. 

"These tools allow us to go outside the box". Interestingly put. What's wrong with that? Nothing! There's more than one way to do things, and more than one right way, too. But, I stand by my original statement. If you have the resources to get the stuff and you're not using them, you're not performing as capably as you can. Slotting Combat Jump or Hover with an LotG 7.5% is just a no-brainer. 

While it's true that most builds wouldn't even notice an improvement in that tiny bit of recharge, they add up. Even more of a no-brainer are the 3% def and the 5% resist IOs. There's a reason those are so expensive. People know they're helpful. It just makes sense to use them if you can get them. It doesn't make sense to not use them if you can get them under any circumstance that I can think of. Some builds might be super tight and not have the slot for it because they're thinking about some other set bonus.  But for the most part, if you're not using them (and you can afford them) you're making a mistake.  Just my opinion, do it your way. 

[nyttyn]

sir, this is an arby's alternate IO suggestion thread. i just wanted to suggest alternatives for the already existing LotG orz

[Major_Decoy]

35 minutes ago, nyttyn said:

sir, this is an arby's alternate IO suggestion thread. i just wanted to suggest alternatives for the already existing LotG orz

I agree. I suggest a resistance set, a heal set, and a to hit debuff set.

 

Ruck of the Rambler

 

Tuck of the Tumbler

 

Lick of the Gimbler

[Zepp]

If this were to be implemented you would want it to be as universally available as possible.

My two ideas are to put the LotG proc (to prevent stacking beyond 5) into:

 

--- Universal Travel - Sacrifice the common KB or Slow protections in favor of recharge.

Speed of Thought

Run Speed/Jump/Flight Speed/Range

Run Speed/Jump/Flight Speed/Range/Endurance

7.5% Global Recharge

 

Set Bonuses

• (2) 2.5% Endurance Discount
• (3) 5% Range

 

--- Universal Damage - A non-unique UD set with a Damage/LotG proc in the sixth slot.

Radical Initiative

Accuracy/Damage

Endurance/Recharge

Accuracy/Damage/Endurance

Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Damage/7.5% Global Recharge

 

Set Bonuses

• (2) 10% Resist (-Spd, -Rech)
• (3) 2.5% Defense (Melee), 1.25% Defense (Smashing/Lethal)
• (4) 2.5% Defense (Ranged), 1.25% Defense (Energy/Negative)
• (5) 2.5% Defense (AoE), 1.25% Defense (Fire/Cold)
• (6) 4% Damage

 

 

Or both. Just some thoughts...

Edited April 12, 2020 by Zepp

[Haijinx]

On 4/9/2020 at 7:10 PM, MTeague said:

Per Account or Per Character?   (yes, the sarc-o-meter is working fine)

700-900 ish million to free up 5 slots!  Per character would be fine.  

[Troo]

it is power creep.

 

it is not a good idea. it would simply open the door to more similar requests..

 

why aren't there more +3% def unique bonuses? and why aren't there additional slots available to put these new bonuses in?

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Troo

[Haijinx]

We just need 1 IO that turns you into the ultimate Incarnate you are in that first Incarnate Mission.  

 

Then done. 

[Zepp]

56 minutes ago, Troo said:

it is power creep.

 

it is not a good idea. it would simply open the door to more similar requests..

 

why aren't there more +3% def unique bonuses? and why aren't there additional slots available to put these new bonuses in?

 

It is not power creep, it is just increasing the variety of mules (basically). You would still only be able to slot 5 of them.

[Grouchybeast]

3 hours ago, Zepp said:

It is not power creep, it is just increasing the variety of mules (basically). You would still only be able to slot 5 of them.

The premise of this thread is that LotG+7.5% forces people to use up power picks and slots for muling IOs.  Adding more LotG+7.5% clones would let people take the rech buff AND choose other powers or use those slots elsewhere.  That is some level of power creep, albeit arguable how much.

 

Let's start with: universal travel IOs can be slotted into all the prestige sprints.

[Zepp]

14 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

The premise of this thread is that LotG+7.5% forces people to use up power picks and slots for muling IOs.  Adding more LotG+7.5% clones would let people take the rech buff AND choose other powers or use those slots elsewhere.  That is some level of power creep, albeit arguable how much.

 

Let's start with: universal travel IOs can be slotted into all the prestige sprints.

Actually, they can not. Otherwise people would be slotting -KB procs in there, and they aren't.

[reib]

Perma hasten Is not really needed.

[Grouchybeast]

25 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Actually, they can not. Otherwise people would be slotting -KB procs in there, and they aren't.

My apologies, I was mixing them up with the regular travel IOs sets.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

4 hours ago, Zepp said:

It is not power creep, it is just increasing the variety of mules (basically). You would still only be able to slot 5 of them.

The term mule is really inaccurate. Are people taking Hover just to put an LOTG special in? Combat jumping? How about Invisibility, or Leaderships def toggle and vengeance? I know every one of those powers gets used actively even if my build doesnt focus on global recharge or has hasten or not.

[TheIncredibleSulk]

On 4/9/2020 at 10:00 AM, Bentley Berkeley said:

I personally dont agree with the OPs premise in part because I feel defense and recharge go hand in hand in the comic book genre for the most part. Characters with the best cant touch me are the same more often then not as those with abilities that in general invoke the use of bullet time in film to portray the effect of. From Spidermans super agility and spidey sense to Speedsters, and ofcourse the icon of comic godhood the Kryptonian with speed, senses, a brain that works at the speed of light to process threats that should render them basically untouchable against any foe lacking such powers in turn.

 

I mean hell almost every major foe on The Flash is a fellow speedster or someone able to negate his speed. Meanwhile Super Girl gets written so poorly she is frequently threatened by foes lacking such tools, Which is so bad and makes her seem either weak or incompetent with her abilities when you watch and think, wait if Flash was here he would do this, she could do this, why isnt she doing this?

 

Im then reminded of an episode of Smallville in which Clark is faced with guys able to mimic his strength, and its his foster father old Johnny K that has to remind clark " Son they might have your strength but not your other gifts, use them."

 

I am actually totally in favor of the idea of keeping it with the theme of the set. Could we give res sets a +damage IO under the same premise?

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

4 hours ago, Zepp said:

It is not power creep, it is just increasing the variety of mules (basically). You would still only be able to slot 5 of them.

That is a form of power creep, because it can for example let people further min max using less powers to achieve the same result. Why should a very hardy set like WP or Invuln have as easy a time fitting in such a bonus as a squishier set like SR can. And again imo it does not jive with the genre our game is based upon. Virtually all characters in comics that possess incredible speed and reflexes is a defense type of character rather then a resistant to dmg type. Kryptonians being the OP god like one that can have max recharge and max DR at the same time easily. Otherwise its more speedsters, and those with psychic senses and super reaction times like spider man or Dare Devil.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Just now, TheIncredibleSulk said:

I am actually totally in favor of the idea of keeping it with the theme of the set. Could we give res sets a +damage IO under the same premise?

Id actually love to see more diverse kinds of specials in sets for thematic purpose, like for example a build up or rage type proc in a DR or even heal set to mimc things like hulk and wolverine going all wild and crazy.

[Zepp]

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

The term mule is really inaccurate. Are people taking Hover just to put an LOTG special in? Combat jumping? How about Invisibility, or Leaderships def toggle and vengeance? I know every one of those powers gets used actively even if my build doesnt focus on global recharge or has hasten or not.

Sometimes people mule powers (especially in the concealment pool). These are not necessarily pure mules, but mules in the regards that the primary reason for taking the power is to slot LotG. Just because you use a power doesn't make it a mule. Just because you don't use the power as a mule, doesn't mean that other people don't.