Weekly Discussion 50: Darkness Control

[GM Miss]

Weekly discussion 50 - Week 5/10/20-5/16/20:

⚔️YOU VOTED: Now that our Archetype discussions are over let's focus on a few powersets you guys voted on that you would like to talk about.

 

Next up is: Darkness Control!⚔️

 

❓ Things to think about:

>Here is a link on Darkness Control: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Darkness_Control
>How does it compare to other control sets?
>What would you change?
>What do you love?

 

Don't just use these prompts, talk about whatever you want from this weeks prompt!

 

Let's Chat 😄

[ArchVileTerror]

Get rid of the dog.

 

 

 

. . . 

Ok, not really -get rid of- . . . but seriously, some alternatives would be PROFOUNDLY appreciated.   It's just so visually and thematically jarring to have the ultimate pet in this set being a really big dog.  There are so many more appropriate character models to use!  It feels like the only reason it's in the set was just to showcase the new quadruped model.

 

Otherwise I think Darkness Control is a pretty fantastic Set overall.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, ArchVileTerror said:

Get rid of the dog.

. . . 

Ok, not really -get rid of- . . . but seriously, some alternatives would be PROFOUNDLY appreciated.   It's just so visually and thematically jarring to have the ultimate pet in this set being a really big dog.  There are so many more appropriate character models to use!  It feels like the only reason it's in the set was just to showcase the new quadruped model.

I agree with this.  It would be great if we had an option to choose what pet to summon. 

[GM Miss]

I'm honestly not sure why it was voted so high, I think some people in general just voted for dark sets over all. 

 

Its a fairly solid set - so many other sets need more work.

 

But i'm here for what y'all voted for - lets do it! 

[Redlynne]

33 minutes ago, ArchVileTerror said:

Get rid of the dog.

 

 

 

. . . 

Ok, not really -get rid of- . . . but seriously, some alternatives would be PROFOUNDLY appreciated.   It's just so visually and thematically jarring to have the ultimate pet in this set being a really big dog.  There are so many more appropriate character models to use!  It feels like the only reason it's in the set was just to showcase the new quadruped model.

 

31 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I agree with this.  It would be great if we had an option to choose what pet to summon. 

 

Actually, it would be really cool if you were given the option to swap the Umbra Beast model for a Spirit Panther model (courtesy of Night Ward), since both are quadrupeds:

 

 

Allow customization of the glowing eyes color in the costume editor and you're good ...

[ArchVileTerror]

I mean, I'd certainly choose the cat over the dog every single time if they were the only two options, but both still seem out of place.  

I would have figured a shadowy version of the Demon character model would have been most appropriate.  Maybe with just the skull-face part as a solid texture, and everything else being translucent and shadowy.

[SeraphimKensai]

A floating D&D esque Shadow Beholder or something out of a Lovecraftian Nightmare with Tentacles would be amazing.

 

I'd love to see Haunt changed to summon a Shadow Clone of the target inheriting weakened versions of the target's powers.

 

Heart of Darkness I feel should be like a ToHitDebuff Nuke, where it doesn't necessarily do much for damage, but it essentially blinds the targets in range for a substantial amount of time.

[MTeague]

But dogs are better than cats.  Science Completely subjective opinion masquerading as science has proven asserted that it is so!

 

[Peacemoon]

I love darkness control. I have veteran level 40 Dark/Dark controller so I’m familiar with the set. From a balance point of view the set is fine, however there are some bug fixes and minor changes that I’d like to see:

 

1) Haunts regularly spasm out, particularly when moving from one enemy group to another. I don’t know what causes this, but they basically become unresponsive and won’t follow or attack for the remainder of their duration. This is relatively easy to reproduce.

 

2) The graphics for the immobilise expire before the duration does, making it very confusing to see who is actually immobilised. Particularly annoying as a controller as you’re trying to do containment damage 😊

 

3) The graphic for Shadow Field (the AoE hold); the shadow dome effect is smaller than the actual diameter of the power. Not sure if this is intended but makes the power look a lot less effective than it is.

 

4) Umbra Beast - He has a single target immobilise that has a 4 second recharge, and it is his favourite power to use. It is also the ‘howl’ effect with howl audio, so once you get to 32 it’s all you hear every 5 seconds. It’s also a low damage attack and means he often doesn’t do his big damage hits for sometime as he keeps cycling back to the howl. This is probably the only balance change I’d make, but would be great if this were given a longer recharge  so wolfie can cycle through his attacks much more effectively. (Or just some optimisation in general). 
 

I would love if the immobilise were an AoE instead of a cone but I doubt this will ever change.😉 Currently everything I do is in melee range but have to jump out to cone-hit them with immobilise.

 

Cheeky Controller request that effects Dark Control (but particularly Mind Control), please please PLEASE can Fear and Confuse be allowed to grant containment damage. Containment seems to have been wrongly interpreted as ‘physically contained’, but mentally contained through fear and confuse should also count for extra damage. It would be a very welcome change, particularly for Mind Control, but also Darkness Control and others. 
Thank you.

[MTeague]

• Keep the confuse. I loves me some confuse.
• I really love the AE immob animation, how it's meant to be your OWN shadow extending forward to entrap enemies. That's just several kinds of awesome. 
• I am personally ambivilent on Haunt.  I don't mind it existing, but I wouldn't mind if it were replaced with something else, either. 
• Dark Control waits longer than any other control set for their AE Hold I believe. Possibly swap position of Shadow Field and Haunt?  Maybe not, maybe that's just something folks should be careful to note and be aware of as they roll up their character.
• I wonder if Heart of Darkness should be a Fear vs Disorient.  You get no other Disorient power to stack magnitude with.  On the other hand, it's still a PBAE that applies a -ToHit debuff, and those are always nice.  It's effectively +Defense for every member of the team when you apply a to-hit debuff.

While I love the look on Umbra Beast, (Dogs are awesome),

the one thing I really really REALLY wish it could be, but can absolutely never happen because trademarks would be these guys: 

 

 

[Peacemoon]

Heart of Darkness is an awesome power and combines nicely with immobilise to hold most enemies. As for stacking the stun, at high levels you can stack it with itself with super recharge - and if you are dark/dark you can stack it with howling twilight 😉

[Eldyem]

I like a lot about Dark, but I do agree that the final pet is very out of place. I don't love anything the way I love Carrion Creepers, Phantom Army, or Wormhole, but I don't think that's a specific design failure.

The truth is that, despite having a Dark controller, I really don't think about the set that much; it's pretty well designed, nothing stands out as particularly overpowered or underpowered. Most of the powers are worth taking, but you can skip plenty of them as well, especially on a high recharge build. It's a very good example of a powerset that's in a good place, at least in my opinion.

 

It's not Illusion, Plant, or Fire, but it's also not Ice. As an aside, I can't think of the last time I saw a Dark Controller that wasn't also /Dark, but I don't think that speaks to any specific deficiencies or overwhelming synergies of either set.

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

• Dark Control waits longer than any other control set for their AE Hold I believe. Possibly swap position of Shadow Field and Haunt?  Maybe not, maybe that's just something folks should be careful to note and be aware of as they roll up their character.

Ice and Earth both get their AoE holds at 26 instead of 18; Earth and Dark both, to my understanding, have "stronger" AoE holds in that they're psuedopet effects, so I think it's fine personally.  Ice is just an outlier (in a lot of ways).

[TalonBlue]

2 hours ago, MTeague said:

• Keep the confuse. I loves me some confuse.
• I really love the AE immob animation, how it's meant to be your OWN shadow extending forward to entrap enemies. That's just several kinds of awesome. 
• I am personally ambivilent on Haunt.  I don't mind it existing, but I wouldn't mind if it were replaced with something else, either. 
• Dark Control waits longer than any other control set for their AE Hold I believe. Possibly swap position of Shadow Field and Haunt?  Maybe not, maybe that's just something folks should be careful to note and be aware of as they roll up their character.
• I wonder if Heart of Darkness should be a Fear vs Disorient.  You get no other Disorient power to stack magnitude with.  On the other hand, it's still a PBAE that applies a -ToHit debuff, and those are always nice.  It's effectively +Defense for every member of the team when you apply a to-hit debuff.

While I love the look on Umbra Beast, (Dogs are awesome),

the one thing I really really REALLY wish it could be, but can absolutely never happen because trademarks would be these guys: 

 

 

I am in favor of [Summon Mr. Morden] as a power for Darkness Control.

[MTeague]

4 minutes ago, TalonBlue said:

I am in favor of [Summon Mr. Morden] as a power for Darkness Control.

Ha!  I meant more the actual Shadows... but a Morden pet would be awesome too!

[ForeverLaxx]

Yeah, not really sure why this set got voted for conversation, but since it's here...

 

The Haunt spirits don't seem to function sometimes, as another said. They'll either hang out at the last spawn you used them on and go nowhere, or follow you but not attack unless you drag them directly into the face of something.

 

My biggest complaint echos the others: the Umbra Beast. It kinda fits in the sense that it's a shadow hound, but it's also kinda jarring considering the set's overall theme. It also howls way too often.

 

Whatever may happen to the set, I don't want it to lose either of these pets or the confuse power. Part of what made me pick the set was it had a lot of pets and the confuse power's animation/effect is really cool.

[Carnifax]

This, and Dark Armor last week. Meanwhile poor Dark Blast is sitting in a corner crying for a pass, with its weird mismatched cones and the Tier "3" blast which Dehydrate points and laughs at.....

 

Anyway I'd agree with most things posted here. I don't mind the look of the dog too much, more alternatives would be nice though. But dear lord please get a muzzle fitted to him. He barks CONSTANTLY and its maddening. 

 

Other than that it's a well designed set sitting somewhere between Illusion and Mind in how it "feels", with a lot of AOE Control. I know a lot of people don't like Shadow Field but my Domi loves it and appreciates the fact it's somewhat Domination compatible (I think the initial placement uses Domi but the random "procs" after don't?). 

 

 

[blayzemaster]

I really like Dark Control.

 

I'd love for Haunt to be a bit less spaced out, and it would be good to have it a bit clearer in the power tooltip that it actually taunts enemeis (I have started to use that if no domination to take care of bosses for a bit). Otherwise, it's a really good set, I wouldn't mind an option for a different pet.

 

I do wonder if more could be done with Fear so that it is a bit more uniform about activation before detection - sometimes the mobs still get an attack off. A minor point may also be changing Living Shadows into a TAoE to synergise with Heart of Darkness, but that might be a bit "too" perfect.

 

I also wouldn't mind an option in power customisation without the black shadow but that's deeply personal to fit into my "ghost" theme!

[Psyonico]

My biggest problem with Dark Control is that you have to jump into melee range to fire off Heart of Darkness (dangerous if you don't have a stealth) then jump out of melee to fire off Living Shadows (since it's a cone).  With enemies staggering around after you stun them, you're less likely to be able to hit all of them with Living Shadows.  This is the only set with a PBAoE Stun and the only set with a cone AoE Immobilize.  Sure both make the set "unique" but they don't synergize.

[Chrome]

i personally think that the reason i dont play dark control is the cones...especially the immobilize...  lining up cones is annoying...although i get better everytime i use them...it always seems that one or two guys get missed, i peersonally feel that all AOE immobilizes should be TAOE  other than that its pretty fine i guess...the howl gets repetitive, but over all not bad

[Black Zot]

I want to like Dark Control.  It has so many cool powers that gel with an overall theme ... and then you hit the capstone power and WTF is THAT doing there?  I dunno what mental gymnastics the original devs went through to justify some random animal being shoehorned into a set that otherwise runs on eldritch horror and things that go bump in the night.  What, did they think everyone playing Dark was going for a Red Riding Hood reference?

[Blastit]

A beast made out of shadows is as likely as anything else, really.

[DoctorDitko]

I have 11 dogs, so I'm biased. I like the big fluffy dog but I have noticed my real ones getting agitated when they hear Fluffy's howl.

Fewer HPM* would be welcome.

 

 

 

*Howls per minute

[zenblack]

Credentials: I have a fully incarnated 50 Dark/Dark Controller. Illusion/Rad Controller, Plant/Psi Dominator.

 

As far as the Dark Control side there are 3 very specific things I think they could adjust/fix that would fine tune Dark Control to make it better/comparable in quality to other top tier control sets (Illusion/Fire/Plant).

 

1.) Allow another effect to provide Containment. I suggest Fear or Disorient. This would allow Dark to increase it's damage while not changing any current powers and it fits thematically.

2.) Improve Shades. This could be implemented a number of ways. Increasing their attack damage based on a formula of the mob used to cast would be interesting and give a Dark Controller alternative strategy's when casting the spell. (Perhaps adding an additional minor dot based on the "type" of enemy, or increasing attack rate/attack damage) there are a lot of creative and interesting ways this could be accomplished. The goal is to get them somewhat in line with Fire in terms of potential damage/survivability with a small boost. You could even just up the #, adjust the attack rate/damage, etc.

3.) Improve the Umbra Beast. This you could do in a variety of ways. I agree with the poster that mentioned that the howl is too frequent, perhaps changing it to a longer effect/timer so that it is allowed to do more damaging attacks is all it would need. But as it is it does need a bump and with Dark there are a lot of opportunities to adjust it thematically as well as strategically.

 

If these are adjusted in an upward direction Dark will have a much appreciated boost that fits. I also think this is a low investment in terms of development time. A few minor tweaks and it will compete with the other top tier Controller sets.

[Psyonico]

2 hours ago, zenblack said:

1.) Allow another effect to provide Containment. I suggest Fear or Disorient. This would allow Dark to increase it's damage while not changing any current powers and it fits thematically.

FYI: Disorient does provide Containment.

[zenblack]

3 hours ago, Psyonico said:

FYI: Disorient does provide Containment.

Sorry about that, I was thinking of something else. You are correct. Then perhaps Haunts could be given disorient on their attacks as well. The point is that without giving them invulnerable pets (Plant and Illusion) or a single target dps skill (Illusion) the pets, between Umbra and Shades, should be given enough potential damage to be competitive.

Edited May 13, 2020 by zenblack