Weekly Discussion 50: Darkness Control

[Turric]

I have a dark dominator and the set is pretty solid. Except for the dog... Maybe if it was some kind of cool hellhound, but with so many other better models to choose from, it is just disappointing. As someone else mentioned, Heart of Darkness, is rather wonky but then I don't use it.

[Bill Z Bubba]

  On 5/12/2020 at 8:29 PM, DoctorDitko said:

I have 11 dogs, so I'm biased. I like the big fluffy dog but I have noticed my real ones getting agitated when they hear Fluffy's howl.

Fewer HPM* would be welcome.

 

 

 

*Howls per minute

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I'm with this guy. Fewer HPM. Alternate animals acceptable but please don't take away my doggy.

[SaddestGhost]

Much of the dysergy in Dark is, in my opinion, an intentional decision made by the live devs.  Dark's ability to stack handy amounts of -to hit debuff with nearly every ability means it offers a layer of protection beyond its mez alone.  I think they wanted to disrupt that inherent synergy a bit to prevent Dark from being the premier control set.  Even in doing so they compensated by giving Living Shadows a bit of bonus damage.  As it is, it's a very powerful set that does everything well while not being the best in any area.

 

The only thing in Dark that actually needs fixed is Haunt's AI, which tend to do nothing after their initial target is defeated.  Of course, it's not alone in control pets that needs an AI tweak.  Phantasm can't keep itself out of melee despite not having any melee attacks.

 

As for things that I would be nice extras, I'm all for alternative models for the dog (never been a fan) and it really needs to shut up.

[DougGraves]

  On 5/11/2020 at 2:54 PM, GM Miss said:

I'm honestly not sure why it was voted so high, I think some people in general just voted for dark sets over all.

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People did not vote for the bad sets that need a lot of help.  You can see those sets just by looking at what people don't play.  People voted for great sets that they want to make even better.  The forums are not full of players wanting balance and a challenge, they are full of people wanting god mode and even greater rewards for less effort and challenge.

 

That said: I also want the pet removed.  I love controllers but don't like the pets.  They just don't fit with the other powers for my theme.

[Zepp]

  On 5/11/2020 at 10:00 PM, Peacemoon said:

Cheeky Controller request that effects Dark Control (but particularly Mind Control), please please PLEASE can Fear and Confuse be allowed to grant containment damage. Containment seems to have been wrongly interpreted as ‘physically contained’, but mentally contained through fear and confuse should also count for extra damage. It would be a very welcome change, particularly for Mind Control, but also Darkness Control and others. 

Thank you.

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I wouldn't say that is cheeky, but reasonable. I would actually like to see Heart of Darkness converted to a PBAoE Fear, but would not ask for it if it were not connected to a change allowing Fear to count towards containment. This would make the set a tad more thematically cohesive while adding Fear to containment would allow for it to be a minor adjustment rather than a major nerf -- the effect duration could be extended to account for the decrease in control strength. Also, Mind Control and Illusion Control could really use the minor adjustment.

Darkness Control is interesting in that it balances between traditional control sets (that are very containment-oriented) and unorthodox control sets (that use control without focusing on cc powers - Illusion, control via threat management, Electric, control via endurance theft). As such, it requires a broader understanding than most control sets to make it sing, but in the right hands is stronger than other Control sets. Other than the containment and Heart of Darkness adjustments discussed earlier, I don't think there needs to be any changes.

 

As far as cosmetic changes, some adjustments to the pets (allowing Umbral beast to be the standard, a cat, a hoardling, a beholder, a mobile version of Spooky, or something akin to an unbound Nictus... with fewer HpM) may be helpful...

Edited May 14, 2020 by Zepp

[blayzemaster]

  On 5/14/2020 at 4:54 AM, Zepp said:

I wouldn't say that is cheeky, but reasonable. I would actually like to see Heart of Darkness converted to a PBAoE Fear, but would not ask for it if it were not connected to a change allowing Fear to count towards containment. This would make the set a tad more thematically cohesive while adding Fear to containment would allow for it to be a minor adjustment rather than a major nerf -- the effect duration could be extended to account for the decrease in control strength. Also, Mind Control and Illusion Control could really use the minor adjustment.

Darkness Control is interesting in that it balances between traditional control sets (that are very containment-oriented) and unorthodox control sets (that use control without focusing on cc powers - Illusion, control via threat management, Electric, control via endurance theft). As such, it requires a broader understanding than most control sets to make it sing, but in the right hands is stronger than other Control sets. Other than the containment and Heart of Darkness adjustments discussed earlier, I don't think there needs to be any changes.

 

As far as cosmetic changes, some adjustments to the pets (allowing Umbral beast to be the standard, a cat, a hoardling, a beholder, a mobile version of Spooky, or something akin to an unbound Nictus... with fewer HpM) may be helpful...

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I would really dislike that change as a dominator. With the pets floating round and attacking things, the impact of fear is limited. You're then down to one hard AoE control in Shdaow Field with a ludicrous cooldown. I think that would sacrifice too much imo and make the set too unsafe.

[Myrmidon]

  On 5/12/2020 at 12:44 AM, TalonBlue said:

I am in favor of [Summon Mr. Morden] as a power for Darkness Control.

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[QuantumSalt]

I would change Living Shadows to a 150 degree cone or to a targeted AoE like other controllers.  I typically avoid dark because of this narrow cone.  I would also add minor negative energy damage and increase the cone to a 90 degree cone for fearsome stare to align it a little closer to that of the terrify control power.  Everything else seems in the right place.

[Zepp]

  On 5/14/2020 at 10:18 AM, blayzemaster said:

I would really dislike that change as a dominator. With the pets floating round and attacking things, the impact of fear is limited. You're then down to one hard AoE control in Shdaow Field with a ludicrous cooldown. I think that would sacrifice too much imo and make the set too unsafe.

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I see your point, but I was basing my argument on two premises.

1. the set could have better internal thematic cohesion
2. the set is on the higher end of the performance spectrum, so a minor reduction in efficacy would not be an overall problem

However, thinking about your specific issue, perhaps the best way to deal with that would be to reduce the recharge times of Darkness Control - Shadow Field, Earth Control - Volcanic Gasses, Electric Control - Paralyzing Blast, Fire Control - Cinders, Gravity Control - Gravity Distortion Field, Ice Control - Glacier, Illusion Control - Flash, Mind Control - Total Domination, & Plant Control - Vines from 240s to 90s - no change in effect duration, reduction in animation times of Darkness Control - Shadow Field & Illusion Control - Flash to around 2s. (Volcanic Gasses may need some additional adjustments)
I mean, that change is adjacent to this discussion of Darkness Control, because it is an issue within Darkness Control, however, it is also an issue across all control sets. It would also make Control sets a little less recharge-intensive, which would be a great boon for Doms (Trollers still have to deal with the recharge intensive Support sets).
In fact, reducing pet recharge times on control sets from 240s to 180s would be reasonable and address the same issue.

[KC4800]

My complaint about Darkness Control pets is that they block you. They cannot be moved or walked through to get through a doorway, for example. 

[Jacke]

I love all the Dark powersets.  I'm looking at rolling a Dark-Dark Controller and Dark-Dark Dominator in the next few days and I have looked at the set extensively.  I tend to agree with a lot of the feelings and suggestions here.  More about them later, but first my personal issue.

 

One of the signature features of many of the Dark powersets is a stealth power.  Most of them have it such that any Dark-Dark toon has one.  Except the Blaster and the Dominator.  A Dark-Dark toon without stealth?!?  That's just wrong and should be fixed.  A proposed fix for Blasters and Dominators in the spoiler.

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Crazy that an AT's Dark-Dark toons don't have stealth.

 

To avoid disrupting existing builds, my suggested changes to solve this involve having a powerset pick give two powers, similar to Dual Pistol's Swap Ammo, Bio Armor's Environmental Modification, and Staff Fighting's Staff Mastery, and Kheldian's Nova and Dwarf powers.

 

I pick an existing power and to it add Dark Armor's Cloak of Darkness.

 

Unlike those previous combos, these two new combos don't disable other powers and their component powers can be used at the same time.  I don't think they will be overpowered as there will still only be 6 slots to enhance both powers.  As well, both original powers have some drawback and should be buffed.

 

For Dark-Dark Blasters in their Darkness Manipulation powerset:

    Change "Death Shroud" to "Cloak and Death" giving these two powers:
        Cloak of Darkness toggle
        Death Shroud toggle

 

Blasters with Darkness Manipulation would often skip a situational melee-range power like Death Shroud.  Now it's got something extra to tempt its choice.
        
For Dark-Dark Dominators, it's a bit more complex.  Their secondary Assault powersets are planned to be used as the primary powerset for the new AT under development, Guardians.  Guardian's secondary powersets, Compositions, are planned to contain stealth powers, like Dark Composition's Shadow Fall and Atmospheric Composition's Steamy Mist.

 

To give a stealth power to Dark-Dark Dominators means giving two stealth powers to either Dark-Dark Controllers or future Dark-Dark Guardians.

 

I picked Controllers as they already have examples with multiple stealth powers, Illusion-Cold, Illusion-Dark, and Illusion-Storm.  And what better way to show control of Darkness than full stealth.

 

For Dark-Dark Controllers and Dark-Dark Defenders, in their Darkness Control powerset:

    Change "Heart of Darkness" to "Cloak and Heart" giving these two powers:
        Cloak of Darkness toggle
        Heart of Darkness click
        
Heart of Darkness has substandard accuracy, 0.8.  Adding Cloak of Darkness makes it more attractive without being overpowered.

 

 

 

  On 5/12/2020 at 3:02 PM, Psyonico said:

My biggest problem with Dark Control is that you have to jump into melee range to fire off Heart of Darkness (dangerous if you don't have a stealth) then jump out of melee to fire off Living Shadows (since it's a cone).  With enemies staggering around after you stun them, you're less likely to be able to hit all of them with Living Shadows.  This is the only set with a PBAoE Stun and the only set with a cone AoE Immobilize.  Sure both make the set "unique" but they don't synergize.

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Sometimes a mix of cones and PBAoE's will work.  I have a Dark-Rad Defender that fires off the Fearsome Stare cone at a group of mobs for the Fear and -ToHit then wades in with the PBAoEs of Radiation Blast.

 

But Radiation Blast is also a good example of mismatch between cone and PBAoE powers.  Radiation Blast's PBAoE's are great and work well with the Targeted AoE.  The cone Electron Haze is just too slow and doesn't work well at all in the set.  I always skip it.

 

I agree with @Psyonico, Heart of Darkness being a PBAoE is a mismatch with all the cone powers in Dark Control.  It should be a cone or a Targeted AoE.  Baring that, It requires stealth in a set that doesn't have it.  Of course, if my solution of adding stealth to Dark Control mentioned above was done....

 

 

  On 5/12/2020 at 8:29 PM, DoctorDitko said:

I have 11 dogs, so I'm biased. I like the big fluffy dog but I have noticed my real ones getting agitated when they hear Fluffy's howl.

Fewer HPM* would be welcome.

*Howls per minute

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Fluffy (AKA Dark Servant) agrees and says the Dark Dog should, like himself, be as silent as the grave.  And only howl when everyone least expects it for maximum chills.  And find another name, Fluffy is taken!

 

I also think alternate visuals for Umbra Beast, like the Dark Panther, all with glowing colour-customisable eyes, would be fantastic.

 

 

  On 5/11/2020 at 10:00 PM, Peacemoon said:

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I love darkness control. I have veteran level 40 Dark/Dark controller so I’m familiar with the set. From a balance point of view the set is fine, however there are some bug fixes and minor changes that I’d like to see:

 

1) Haunts regularly spasm out, particularly when moving from one enemy group to another. I don’t know what causes this, but they basically become unresponsive and won’t follow or attack for the remainder of their duration. This is relatively easy to reproduce.

 

2) The graphics for the immobilise expire before the duration does, making it very confusing to see who is actually immobilised. Particularly annoying as a controller as you’re trying to do containment damage 😊

 

3) The graphic for Shadow Field (the AoE hold); the shadow dome effect is smaller than the actual diameter of the power. Not sure if this is intended but makes the power look a lot less effective than it is.

 

4) Umbra Beast - He has a single target immobilise that has a 4 second recharge, and it is his favourite power to use. It is also the ‘howl’ effect with howl audio, so once you get to 32 it’s all you hear every 5 seconds. It’s also a low damage attack and means he often doesn’t do his big damage hits for sometime as he keeps cycling back to the howl. This is probably the only balance change I’d make, but would be great if this were given a longer recharge  so wolfie can cycle through his attacks much more effectively. (Or just some optimisation in general). 
 

I would love if the immobilise were an AoE instead of a cone but I doubt this will ever change.😉 Currently everything I do is in melee range but have to jump out to cone-hit them with immobilise.

 

 

Cheeky Controller request that effects Dark Control (but particularly Mind Control), please please PLEASE can Fear and Confuse be allowed to grant containment damage. Containment seems to have been wrongly interpreted as ‘physically contained’, but mentally contained through fear and confuse should also count for extra damage. It would be a very welcome change, particularly for Mind Control, but also Darkness Control and others. 
Thank you.

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I agree with what @Peacemoon suggests about Dark Control (squirrelled away in the spoiler I added).  And I also support adding Fear and Confuse as states that provide Containment and agree with the reasoning.  If a Hold or Immobilize would make an enemy susceptible to taking double damage from a Controller, certainly a Fear or a Confuse would too.

 

 

  On 5/15/2020 at 11:42 AM, Zepp said:

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However, thinking about your specific issue, perhaps the best way to deal with that would be to reduce the recharge times of Darkness Control - Shadow Field, Earth Control - Volcanic Gasses, Electric Control - Paralyzing Blast, Fire Control - Cinders, Gravity Control - Gravity Distortion Field, Ice Control - Glacier, Illusion Control - Flash, Mind Control - Total Domination, & Plant Control - Vines from 240s to 90s - no change in effect duration, reduction in animation times of Darkness Control - Shadow Field & Illusion Control - Flash to around 2s. (Volcanic Gasses may need some additional adjustments)

I mean, that change is adjacent to this discussion of Darkness Control, because it is an issue within Darkness Control, however, it is also an issue across all control sets. It would also make Control sets a little less recharge-intensive, which would be a great boon for Doms (Trollers still have to deal with the recharge intensive Support sets).
In fact, reducing pet recharge times on control sets from 240s to 180s would be reasonable and address the same issue.

 

 

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I agree wtih @Zepp that the high recharge of Controller powers should be addressed.  Right now they almost demand a high-recharge build to the exclusion of anything else.  Dominators need less recharge for perma-Domination than their own AoE Holds.

 

I also think the Accuracy nerf of both the AoE Holds and AoE Immobilizes needs to be improved.  Was 0.8 Accuracy really necessary?  It also forces builds to need more ToHit and global Accuracy for those AoEs than any other powers.

[Galaxy Brain]

If we get alternate doggos, can we make the haunts smaller doggos?

[ArchVileTerror]

I am okay with a pile of wispy canines under the condition that the Shadow Beast can be a not-doggo.  Of course, for ultimate parity, we must also make the option of kitty Haunts too when we add a Jaguar as another option for the Shadow Beast.

[Zepp]

  On 5/16/2020 at 2:01 AM, ArchVileTerror said:

I am okay with a pile of wispy canines under the condition that the Shadow Beast can be a not-doggo.  Of course, for ultimate parity, we must also make the option of kitty Haunts too when we add a Jaguar as another option for the Shadow Beast.

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Like that you used "when" rather than "if" in your statement...