Remove Travel Power Restrictions from Grounded

[Apparition]

Before sunset, I had about a half dozen Electric Armor Brutes.  It was my favorite melee armor power set in the game.  However, I also really like Fly.  The two really don’t get along that well thanks to Grounded only providing knockback protection while... on the ground.  Before sunset, I worked around this by using three knockback protection IOs on each Electric Armor Brute.  While on the ground, my Electric Armor Brutes had something like 26 points of knockback protection.

 

However, on Homecoming, I have yet to make any toon with Electric Armor as I just can’t bring myself around to try to work around Grounded again.  I understand that it is thematic, but I don’t know of any other melee armor power set that limits mez protection to certain travel powers.  I realize that this is a long shot, but I suggest removing the travel power restrictions from Grounded.

[Psyonico]

12 minutes ago, Apparition said:

I don’t know of any other melee armor power set that limits mez protection to certain travel powers. 

Rooted from Stone Armor basically limits you to Teleport (and then you immediately drop from the sky)

 

I do, however, agree that Grounded (and rooted) need to be looked at.  Maybe make grounded work X feet above the ground.

[Nanolathe]

Stone Armour really dislikes you using anything other than Teleport for 2 of its powers (Rooted, it's Mez protection and Granite Armour, which isn't is also mez protection, and is a major reason to play the set in the first place due to the survivability). So no, Electric Armour is not the only one. It's not a unique requirement.

 

As for my opinion, can we please not water down the theme for one-size-fits-all powersets? If there's no difference in playing one set from any other, then I don't see much point in there even being different powersets.

 

Please don't take away the flavour of a set for pure functionality.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Nanolathe
correcting my ignorance. Thank you Bopper

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

Granite Armour, which isn't mez protection

It actually is also mez protection. But your point is valid, the two powers in Stone Armor that provide mez protection also limits movement. If there is some hope, Capt. Powerhouse did mention a willingness to remove the travel debuff from rooted. Shoot, even if it requires being on the ground to have the mez protection, that's still a big boost to have the option to jump without detoggling everything.

[Nanolathe]

37 minutes ago, Bopper said:

It actually is also mez protection. But your point is valid, the two powers in Stone Armor that provide mez protection also limits movement. If there is some hope, Capt. Powerhouse did mention a willingness to remove the travel debuff from rooted. Shoot, even if it requires being on the ground to have the mez protection, that's still a big boost to have the option to jump without detoggling everything.

Owch, that passed over my head. I just always thought of Granite as all the +Res and respectable +Def. I literally missed the Mag10 / Mag20 to most common mez effects. It's odd that two powers in the set are pushing the Mez protection, but I suppose that's just another reason that Stone is unique. No complaints, just didn't occur to me that combined you can hit ~Mag35 against Holds, Stun, Sleep and Immobilise...

 

Though, you almost immobilise yourself by toggling them both on. You are legitimately only slightly faster than a giant land snail. But that's part of the charm of the set, to me at least.

 

Removing the inability to jump would be a nice QoL feature, as long as it still makes the character feel HEAVY and still only gain the protection when actually on the ground. But I'll admit it's embarrassing to be defeated by the slight difference in height between pavement and tarmac.

[macskull]

5 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

Please don't take away the flavour of a set for pure functionality.

If the only thing giving a set its "flavor" is a power or mechanic that makes the set worse than comparable sets, the power or mechanic needs changed. Grounded, while thematic, already comes with a significant weakness relative to other melee set knockback protection powers that's completely unrelated to having to be on the ground - while other knockback protection powers also offer knockback resistance, Grounded does not.

 

This is all irrelevant anyways, since minus this weakness Elec Armor has plenty of flavor already.

[Nayeh]

I propose having the Rooted Toggle merely suppress on movement because of how jarring it is navigating around in a game where most content is fast-paced now. Isn't that how Super Speed works in terms of Threat radius when moving?

Edited May 15, 2020 by Nayeh

[MTeague]

Consider also Hover.  While it's not KB protection as such, it seriously reduces the actual effect of an incoming KB. 

 

Beyond that, there's always the IO approach.  A Blessing of the Zephry, a Karma, and a Fury of the Glad (if you have a PBAE to slot it into....) adds up pretty well.  I mean, maybe things with Force Bolt will still send you flying, but shotguns and grenade launchers will stop being an issue.

[Nanolathe]

39 minutes ago, macskull said:

If the only thing giving a set its "flavor" is a power or mechanic that makes the set worse than comparable sets, the power or mechanic needs changed. Grounded, while thematic, already comes with a significant weakness relative to other melee set knockback protection powers that's completely unrelated to having to be on the ground - while other knockback protection powers also offer knockback resistance, Grounded does not.

 

This is all irrelevant anyways, since minus this weakness Elec Armor has plenty of flavor already.

You can give it KB resistance. I'm not opposed to buffing the parts of powers that are lacking, what I'm saying is don't take away key, distinguishing features of a set. Having less to no resistance to Knockback isn't really the point of Grounded; it's point is that you are grounded. 

[macskull]

38 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

You can give it KB resistance. I'm not opposed to buffing the parts of powers that are lacking, what I'm saying is don't take away key, distinguishing features of a set. Having less to no resistance to Knockback isn't really the point of Grounded; it's point is that you are grounded. 

My point was if those key distinguishing features make the set weaker, it's bad design, just like Fire and Dark's lack of knockback protection is bad design. Remember how Unyielding from Invuln used to 1) immobilize you while it was on; and 2) turn off any other armor toggle you had? It was established pretty quickly that was bad design and it got changed.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

If the only thing giving a set its "flavor" is a power or mechanic that makes the set worse than comparable sets, the power or mechanic needs changed. Grounded, while thematic, already comes with a significant weakness relative to other melee set knockback protection powers that's completely unrelated to having to be on the ground - while other knockback protection powers also offer knockback resistance, Grounded does not.

 

This is all irrelevant anyways, since minus this weakness Elec Armor has plenty of flavor already.

If the mechanic that "makes the set worse" is circumvented by literally just standing on the ground, is it really making it worse?  I mean, I can't use Hurl while flying.  I can't use Footstomp while flying.  I can't use Stone Spears while flying.

 

There are certain times when a hardcore RPer just has to give ground from their immersion for the sake of the game's QoL and at the same time, a hardcore meta-gamer just has to give some ground when the objection isn't that limiting for a bit of near-harmless flavor.  This is one of the latter times.

[Black Zot]

Flat-out shutting down one of a powerset's key abilities in any content that involves vertical movement is NOT "near-harmless".  Actively punishing a player for their choice of primary or secondary is not "flavor". 

 

It's bad design, period.

[Naraka]

4 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

Flat-out shutting down one of a powerset's key abilities in any content that involves vertical movement is NOT "near-harmless". 

Grounded isn't shut down when in the air, only its KB/immob protection is suppressed.

 

Secondly, how many encounters involved consistent vertical movement while engaged in combat?  And of those, how many are strictly team oriented thus the importance of an individual's state of KB protection isn't as pivotal as the state of the team?

 

9 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

Actively punishing a player for their choice of primary or secondary is not "flavor". 

That's a stretch.  No one is actively seeking out anyone's account to pass judgement and punishment on them.  They have access to all the tools and features as every other player, to include IOs or the choice to pick powers that give them the effect they want.  If Grounded breaks your gameplay and you don't want to use IOs or Acrobatics or deal with a bit of flipping because you're flying in the air with hover/fly, then you can pick any other set of armors  with the kind of protection you want and then put on an electric aura on it in your costume.

 

Complaining that Electric Armor needs to be grounded is like complaining that light is bright, water is wet and Australians are hot.  That's just the way things are as dictated by nature (or in this case, the game).

 

17 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

It's bad design, period.

And that's just your opinion.

[ABlueThingy]

What if they added KB protection to other parts of the set and then added some other benefit to being on the ground?  Maybe a small +absorb as some energy/kinetic force from attacks just defused off into the ground?

 

Keeping the thematic feel while repairing a mechanical hole

[Zeraphia]

I agree a lot with @macskull and how he mentions that a lot of sets have flaws that need to be addressed/made viable. Sets having "flavor" is understandable, but instead of a set being made just for flavor, I think it should be balanced around actually being played in the game and taken seriously, which some sets clearly aren't. 

 

+1 to the OP's idea!

[macskull]

The idea of keeping weaknesses in a set for "thematic" reasons isn't a good one. If I have to be on or near the ground for this one particular effect of this one particular power to work, why don't the rest of the effects of that power work the same way? For that matter, why don't the rest of the powers in the set work the same way? Removing the "you must be near the ground" restriction patches a hole in the set (and even then only partially since even if you are on the ground Grounded's knockback protection is still weaker than every other armor set's knockback protection) without taking anything away, and the majority of players won't even notice - but the ones who do will be happy. It's a win-win situation. Besides, if we're talking "theme" here, electricity can absolutely jump through air given a high enough voltage, so even that part doesn't make sense.

[BrandX]

It never really bothered me.  Just got my newest Elec/Elec Brute to 50 and went from Fly to Mystic Flight.  I don't need to fly 100% of the time on the character tho, so that could be an issue with those who want to hover 100% of the time.

 

I wouldn't be against the on ground aspect being lifted tho, if only because I hate it when it doesn't give it to you, because of some uneven ground.

[Nanolathe]

Right, can anyone actually agree on what's "flavour" and what's "a hole that's not fair". Can you please explain where that line is so that the conversation can have any basis in anything other than opinion.

 

I think the flavour of Electric armour is just fine. The "holes" are barely noticeable, and are easily patched with IOs that aren't under any form of scrutiny at time of writing, and are cheap as dirt. You can patch these holes with next to zero effort. You can already ignore the "flavour" of the set. You can solve your own QoL issues with two cheap IOs, or a modification of your play style. Done.

 

You have a unique Auto-On KB protection power that no other set has outside of VEATs, but it requires a small amount of effort on your part to make it function, rather than the Endurance requirements of other sets.

 

If you're going to remove the "ground only" part of the power then I vote you also lose the "endurance free" part of it too.

[macskull]

4 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

Right, can anyone actually agree on what's "flavour" and what's "a hole that's not fair". Can you please explain where that line is so that the conversation can have any basis in anything other than opinion.

 

I think the flavour of Electric armour is just fine. The "holes" are barely noticeable, and are easily patched with IOs that aren't under any form of scrutiny at time of writing, and are cheap as dirt. You can patch these holes with next to zero effort. You can already ignore the "flavour" of the set. You can solve your own QoL issues with two cheap IOs, or a modification of your play style. Done.

 

You have a unique Auto-On KB protection power that no other set has outside of VEATs, but it requires a small amount of effort on your part to make it function, rather than the Endurance requirements of other sets.

 

If you're going to remove the "ground only" part of the power then I vote you also lose the "endurance free" part of it too.

You can't patch the knockback hole. As I said upthread, Grounded doesn't get knockback resistance, so even with these "thematic" limitations removed it is still weaker than any other set's knockback protection and you need to devote multiple slots to stacking additional knockback protection on top of what Grounded gets unless you're running Power Surge.

[Nanolathe]

So? Why does Electric armour have to have the exact SAME protection and resistances to Knockback as [inset set here], with an Auto-On power that costs you nothing?

[macskull]

11 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

So? Why does Electric armour have to have the exact SAME protection and resistances to Knockback as [inset set here], with an Auto-On power that costs you nothing?

I'm not saying that, but I'm giving a reason why the "you have to be on the ground for the knockback protection to work" doesn't need to be a thing. Like I said earlier, there is nothing lost by fixing this hole. People that didn't care before will continue to not care, but people that did care will find themselves with a more functional character that doesn't need to devote slots or power picks to knockback protection "just in case." Win-win.

[Nanolathe]

You just told me that the knockback resistance was a problem, in addition to the on ground requirement. So what exactly needs to be removed and what needs to be added to this before you're satisfied?

[Naraka]

4 hours ago, macskull said:

The idea of keeping weaknesses in a set for "thematic" reasons isn't a good one.

By isolating ideas you don't like as not good inherently limits creativity.

 

If sets didn't have thematic weaknesses, then thematic strengths would also not really be a particularly "good idea" because then the lack of desirable strengths is then transformed into a weakness.  For example, a hypothetical set has good mez protection and mez resistance across the board while every other set has "enough" protection/resistance to not complain about...but this hypothetical set has "enough" survivability to not complain about while other sets get capped smashing/lethal or some other type and some other perks like END management tools and damage.  Now that hypothetical set that has "enough" but specialized at something no one needs has a "hole" in END management, doesn't cap any damage types, doesn't have a crazy heal, etc etc.

 

Considering the limitation of Electric Armor's KB protection as a hole really does side-step the other strengths of that protection (it's passive so it's on right when you get rezzed) as well as the set as a whole (capped resists to the most common exotic damage type, above average END management, some slow resistance, a solid damage/debuff aura, a unique tier 9 and a solid heal).

 

4 hours ago, macskull said:

If I have to be on or near the ground for this one particular effect of this one particular power to work, why don't the rest of the effects of that power work the same way? For that matter, why don't the rest of the powers in the set work the same way?

Because people would complain.  Even if it's far easier to bypass such a limitation compared to sets like Stone Armor, people would complain.  I'm not trying to belittle QoL complaints as sets like Stone Armor could certainly be revised to be unique and attractive to players, but this is an example of having a lot of a good thing and complaining about the very minute complications you don't like.  The concept for Grounded is stated in the description AND has some logic in physics.  

 

 

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

I'm not saying that, but I'm giving a reason why the "you have to be on the ground for the knockback protection to work" doesn't need to be a thing. Like I said earlier, there is nothing lost by fixing this hole. People that didn't care before will continue to not care, but people that did care will find themselves with a more functional character that doesn't need to devote slots or power picks to knockback protection "just in case." Win-win.

What's the point in an RPG system if there are no build pot holes or detours to use to make a build?  Why not just give everyone a wad of stats that they can just distribute and some basic attack frameworks that they can just alter to maximize performance?

 

AFAIK, part of playing an RPG is taking strengths AND weaknesses into your character's self and then participating in content that can sometimes target said weaknesses. If players had the choice of not having weaknesses, they would likely never choose to have any.  Some would as there have been suggestions for self-imposed weaknesses but often people want strengths as a byproduct but it's just too difficult to balance in this kind of game.  But the weaknesses the game *can* impose aren't as difficult to balance.

[Bopper]

I recommend using the Base Empowerment to grab 10 KB protection for 90 minutes at the cost of a single common salvage. It may not be enough while jumping around, but it will give you something without having to devote KB protect IOs to your build.