Energy Melee - Does not need

[siolfir]

9 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Readjust your thinking a bit to the reality of the situation.

Why, when there's nothing wrong with the thinking.

 

5 hours ago, Super Atom said:

What a ridiculous sentiment. You're just assuming bad things about people to dismiss their points of view because you don't care. Thankfully the under performance evidence isn't in your favor.

Old EM was nerfed because, per Castle, one power was sufficient to carry the set to a single-target damage crown far above everything except double-stacked Rage, which could be better or worse based on the timing of your Rage crashes. Reverting that power doesn't lead to "underperformance" unless you're stating that the buffs to every other melee set (except Stone Melee, which was nerfed later) mean that the nerf was a huge mistake and overreaction in the first place. In which case, there is no reason NOT to revert it before any other changes are discussed, to get it back to baseline feel and performance that people loved about the set.

 

4 hours ago, BrandX said:

Though Titan Weapons and Electric Melee are top five picks as well, as is Super Strength (FS, combine it with FA), can't speak on Radiation Melee, as I don't know it's AOE potential.

Rad Melee is Energy Melee - complete with long animations, although mostly on shorter recharges (thus less damage and lower DPA) - with more AoEs and splash AoE added to single target attacks in certain situations. Which is part of why I don't see why there's so much focus on "add AoE" and "add a mechanic" - THAT SET EXISTS ALREADY. I don't want another of that set. It's not unique.

[Super Atom]

2 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Old EM was nerfed because, per Castle, one power was sufficient to carry the set to a single-target damage crown far above everything except double-stacked Rage, which could be better or worse based on the timing of your Rage crashes. Reverting that power doesn't lead to "underperformance" unless you're stating that the buffs to every other melee set (except Stone Melee, which was nerfed later) mean that the nerf was a huge mistake and overreaction in the first place. In which case, there is no reason NOT to revert it before any other changes are discussed, to get it back to baseline feel and performance that people loved about the set.

Idk if you misread or misquoted? I have no issues with ET revert, we were talking about whirling hands base damage.

 

Specifically around an 18% increase

Edited September 22, 2020 by Super Atom

[siolfir]

Just now, Super Atom said:

Idk if you misread or misquoted? I have no issues with ET revert, we were talking about whirling hands base damage.

I've already said in several threads that Whirling Hands is an underperformer and doesn't even follow their own design formulas.

 

It could be a misquote from context, but you have so many posts earlier in the thread talking about how "reverting ET won't fix anything" that when I was catching up (while distracted by Fall Guys on the other monitor) that I assumed you were talking about the underperformance of the set as a whole: if it was specifically referring only to Whirling Hands, then I agree.

 

But to me Whirling Hands is a "nice to" fix, while Energy Transfer is a "this must change" fix, starting with the animation and hit times.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, siolfir said:

I've already said in several threads that Whirling Hands is an underperformer and doesn't even follow their own design formulas.

 

It could be a misquote from context, but you have so many posts earlier in the thread talking about how "reverting ET won't fix anything" that when I was catching up (while distracted by Fall Guys on the other monitor) that I assumed you were talking about the underperformance of the set as a whole: if it was specifically referring only to Whirling Hands, then I agree.

 

But to me Whirling Hands is a "nice to" fix, while Energy Transfer is a "this must change" fix, starting with the animation and hit times.

What i said was, reverting ET won't fix it, not that it won't help. Whirling Hands under preforming is what i was saying is a big issue so just an ET revert wouldn't be the end of the problem probably coulda been a little more clear about it i guess 😛

[Infinitum]

33 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Why, when there's nothing wrong with the thinking.

There is when its holding on to something that would be both obsolete if it did exist, and also hasnt existed in that format for over a decade.

[siolfir]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

There is when its holding on to something that would be both obsolete if it did exist, and also hasnt existed in that format for over a decade.

The obsolescence part is opinion. That it hasn't existed for over a decade is why rumors of its obsolescence is pure conjecture - the set as it stands currently is obsolete, though.

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, siolfir said:

The obsolescence part is opinion. That it hasn't existed for over a decade is why rumors of its obsolescence is pure conjecture - the set as it stands currently is obsolete, though.

Its not opinion, if you only revert the change to the ET animation, the set won't compete or even be the best ST set.

 

At best all it would ever be is a graveyard for nostalgics like me.  Because i would play it, and i would love it, but I want more than just that for the set.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Infinitum

[siolfir]

35 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Its not opinion, if you only revert the change to the ET animation, the set won't compete or even be the best ST set.

 

At best all it would ever be is a graveyard for nostalgics like me.  Because i would play it, and i would love it, but I want more than just that for the set.

It will compete, it just might not beat an optimized TW Scrapper. By virtue of not requiring a weapon and not having crashes that's enough to compete for me; not fiddling with Momentum will likely bring around some others. I've brought it up before, but basically "old ET, albeit one that needs a gimmick to get it to happen" is what they did for every Stalker primary to make them competitive.

 

Now, would I be happy with additional changes, which are not "add a tracking stat to it like every other new set, so it behaves differently on a conditional basis?" Sure - but as I said before an animation/hit time reduction on at least Energy Transfer is the starting point for me to even consider the changes as a good faith attempt to fix the set instead of just providing lip service to it while instead just creating a new set that they want to call Energy Melee.

[Super Atom]

Nothing competes with TW right now. Just saying. Thats why it's getting nerfed.

 

Also, the mechanic making the set something that it isn't is an opinion.

 

Also also EF isn't something you track (again) it's just something that happens. Just for clarification (again)

Edited September 23, 2020 by Super Atom

[siolfir]

26 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Nothing competes with TW right now. Just saying. Thats why it's getting nerfed.

 

Also, the mechanic making the set something that it isn't is an opinion.

 

Also also EF isn't something you track (again) it's just something that happens. Just for clarification (again)

Unless they've already added EF in a closed beta, there have been no announcements of what the changes are or will be, so we don't know what they're going to do with it.

 

But let's say they do add it, just like it is for Dominators. Here are the patch notes from that change (highlights added to the relevant portions):

On 8/27/2019 at 9:48 AM, Leandro said:

Energy Assault

• Power Boost is now Power Up. (90s recharge, +34% damage, +75% str to other effects for 10 seconds.)
• Total Focus: Cast time shortened from 3.30 to 2.50 seconds.
• Power Burst: Cast time shortened from 2.00 to 1.67 seconds.
• New special mechanic. Most single target attacks have a 20% chance of granting Energy Focus mode. Hitting a foe with Total Focus will always grant Energy Focus mode.
• While in this mode, Whirling Hands will inflict a large amount of bonus damage. Power Burst will do some bonus damage.
• The mode will be removed if a power with bonus is used.

 

So it's a 20% per attack chance to boost one power that is actually in Energy Melee, which on Dominators is already a 15' radius instead of 8' so is much easier to use. I'd rather have a boost all the time, though, even if it's smaller.

 

Assuming they add bonus damage with Energy Transfer and don't adjust the animation time, you'll still do the same amount of damage because you'll just hit the already-dead corpse that much harder. If they change it so that you don't take self-damage then it's a small net positive because when you hit the corpse you don't lose health yourself, but otherwise seems meaningless and it would be completely useless for Stalkers who can already avoid the self damage.

 

Sure, it's not something you track - it's about as passive as Insight - but it's also not helping much without other, more drastic changes.

Edited September 23, 2020 by siolfir
once again stating preference for a consistent performance buff instead of a conditional one

[Super Atom]

9 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Unless they've already added EF in a closed beta, there have been no announcements of what the changes are or will be, so we don't know what they're going to do with it.

 

But let's say they do add it, just like it is for Dominators. Here are the patch notes from that change (highlights added to the relevant portions):

So it's a 20% per attack chance to boost one power that is actually in Energy Melee, which on Dominators is already a 15' radius instead of 8' so is much easier to use. I'd rather have a boost all the time, though, even if it's smaller.

 

Assuming they add bonus damage with Energy Transfer and don't adjust the animation time, you'll still do the same amount of damage because you'll just hit the already-dead corpse that much harder. If they change it so that you don't take self-damage then it's a small net positive because when you hit the corpse you don't lose health yourself, but otherwise seems meaningless and it would be completely useless for Stalkers who can already avoid the self damage.

 

Sure, it's not something you track - it's about as passive as Insight - but it's also not helping much without other, more drastic changes.

 

I agree with you a straight port of the exact mechanics probably wouldn't be best, but i more mean the general spirit of the mechanic. It's passive and does beneficial stuff. What exactly those things are, would need to be tested/adjusted/debated. It's safe to assume HC devs would do that part first before revealing anything until they find they have a healthy balance if they go that route.

 

I get why people don't want it, I just want EM to be back on the board and i'm not terribly picky on how. My preference is just a mechanic because i enjoy those.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Super Atom

[Mystic_Cross]

Speaking for myself, additional mechanics, even with “hidden” ones like Psi Melee Insight, often prompts a reaction from me to do everything in my power to make the most I possibly can out of it.
 

In other words, It fundamentally changes how I would play the set if that mechanic were not present. 
 

Someone may say that is a psychological thing, and I’d be hard pressed to disagree... but by the same token, someone who finds those mechanics fun “all the time” is just in a different boat traveling the same river.

 

When I want to play those sets with mechanics that I feel obligated to make use of, I play them. When I just want to relax and do “whatever” with no obligations, I play Energy Melee. 
 

My Invuln/EM tank is the epitome of “idgaf cuz I’m chillin” gameplay.

 

I feel like putting in a mechanic like EF would fundamentally change how I’ve always played my “main” and threaten to destroy any sense of enjoyment I get from playing her.

 

If the devs are truly considering going that route, then I’d also ask them to consider this: Rather than adding a damage increase mechanic like EF, why not simply increase the damage of all the powers as a flat bonus to achieve the same goal?
 

Example: If this mechanic would increase damage by say 10% over a pre-determined course of time, then instead of using the mechanic, simply increase the sets base damage to a point that will achieve the same end result without said mechanic.

 

Everyone benefits. No convoluted new mechanics and the set still gets a performance increase and remains inline with what it is at its “core”. A no-gimmick, hard-hitting Melee set.

 

This post is only addressing an alternative to using EF, of course, and in no way reflects a summary of what myself or others would like as an end result.

[Super Atom]

You'll never know unless you try it, test it, and give feedback. I wouldn't worry about anything happening in any direction until it does. No matter what they do, people will be disappointed for one reason or another.

 

This happens a lot in MMOs, since they're always updating and changing.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Super Atom

[0th Power]

I will try whatever they roll out. But if it’s not nonconditional fast ET, I am afraid I’ll be disappointed. 

[Troo]

Soooo... "No matter what they do, people will be disappointed for one reason or another."

 

Well that's not a great outlook.

[Troo]

 

On 9/20/2020 at 11:19 AM, The Curator said:

Before we continue, a caveat: Some of the changes and plans mentioned below are either very early in development or still purely conceptual. Some of them will likely not make the cut and either change greatly or be scrapped entirely.

 

On 9/20/2020 at 11:19 AM, The Curator said:

In the near future we’re going to be rolling out improvements to Energy Melee, Trick Arrow and Blaster secondary sets, whilst also reworking Titan Weapons, one of the most overperforming sets.

 

 

[Taboo]

yes please

[Mystic_Cross]

On 9/21/2020 at 4:10 AM, Bopper said:

I don't think that's true. Spin isn't even supposed to do damage similar to Spin. Even if you factor in the 20% recharge reduction most claws attacks get, Spin outperforms the design formula by a considerable amount.

Poor phrasing I suppose. What I meant was that it's been mentioned multiple times that the formula should have Whirling Hands doing about 18% more damage than it does currently, and that +18% damage would put it "similar" but also "lower" than spin.

 

Not being a numbers guru myself, I referenced Mids to compare sets and damage numbers of similar powers. Of all the melee PBAoEs with the same radius, end cost and recharge, that damage increase would put it most closely to Spin. I didn't mean to imply that it would be the "same" as Spin. 

 

If that's incorrect then I'll take your word for it, as I've seen your previous work with damage formulas and it seems you know what you're talking about 🙂

[Bopper]

31 minutes ago, Mystic_Cross said:

Poor phrasing I suppose. What I meant was that it's been mentioned multiple times that the formula should have Whirling Hands doing about 18% more damage than it does currently, and that +18% damage would put it "similar" but also "lower" than spin.

 

Not being a numbers guru myself, I referenced Mids to compare sets and damage numbers of similar powers. Of all the melee PBAoEs with the same radius, end cost and recharge, that damage increase would put it most closely to Spin. I didn't mean to imply that it would be the "same" as Spin. 

 

If that's incorrect then I'll take your word for it, as I've seen your previous work with damage formulas and it seems you know what you're talking about 🙂

If anyone is saying Whirling Hands getting 18% more damage would make it similar to Spin, they are mistaken. It would make it more like Dragon's Tail or Whirling Mace if you want a good comp. But surely, any damage increase would technically move it closer to Spin (given it's top dog of them all).

 

I pulled these numbers from my spreadsheets and added a Dmg Formula calculation so you can see what various 8 ft radius PBAoE attacks should be doing compared with what they actually do. You'll see I provided an adjusted Spin calculation to accomodate the fact that Spin gets a 20% recharge discount (so it should be treated like a 17.5s recharge, not 14s). You'll see Spin is still more than 30% of what the damage formula would dictate while powers like Whirling Axe and Whirling Hands are producing 15% below what the damage formula would dictate. We could argue the Whirling Axe is actually the worst of the bunch as it has a slower cast time than Whirling Hands, but it makes no difference. Both are badly underperforming.

 

 

*Edit: These numbers are pulled from Brutes, but should translate to the other ATs as well

Edited September 24, 2020 by Bopper

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

*Edit: These numbers are pulled from Brutes, but should translate to the other ATs as well

Not for Scrapper Spin, it recharges in 9.2 seconds.

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Not for Scrapper Spin, it recharges in 9.2 seconds.

If I recall, a lot of Scrapper's Claws have smaller recharge values. 

 

Edit: In fact, it looks like all of them. So...Scrapper recharges everything faster, but everything hits softer too. Although, this thread is about Energy Melee so I figured Brute probably fits the best for comparison.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Bopper

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

If I recall, a lot of Scrapper's Claws have smaller recharge values. 

Oh yeah.

[BrandX]

12 minutes ago, Bopper said:

If I recall, a lot of Scrapper's Claws have smaller recharge values. 

 

Edit: In fact, it looks like all of them. So...Scrapper recharges everything faster, but everything hits softer too. Although, this thread is about Energy Melee so I figured Brute probably fits the best for comparison.

 

Wasn't part of Claws being that it recharged faster and was cheaper on the end?

[Troo]

Sooo... porting the classic Energy Melee to scrappers could have faster recharge times.. that's what I just pieced together. (sometimes I just hear what I want)

[Bopper]

11 minutes ago, Troo said:

Sooo... porting the classic Energy Melee to scrappers could have faster recharge times.. that's what I just pieced together. (sometimes I just hear what I want)

If they removed all the secondary effects from Energy Melee attacks, you could request that. The rule of thumb was, if a power had no secondary effects you can give it a 20% reduction on the recharge (while retaining full damage).

 

14 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Wasn't part of Claws being that it recharged faster and was cheaper on the end?

I don't recall on the endurance, but recharge, yes.