Weekly Discussion 53: How to Increase Villain Population

[GM Miss]

Weekly discussion 53 - Week 5/31/20-6/06/20:

 

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@Tugzug

 

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⚔️YOU VOTED: Lets talk about how to increase villain population!⚔️

 

Let's Chat 😄

[Yoru-hime]

Isn't this already a weekly conversation here? 😉 

 

 

[zenijos10]

I think villain stories and dialogue are generally better written and thats a good reason to play redside.  However, everything looks so drab.  I think a visual makeover could create a huge long term change.  I understand the Rogue Isles are supposed be run down, but they dont have to be consistently dreary.  Patchworks and mismatched materials create a good pop of color but dont lose the theming.

 

Here are some more specific suggestions:

• Create new textures for existing missions, maps
• Possibly let people keep the old ones if they like, maybe give a color / or dreary to lively slider option for each player
• Create entirely new maps for newspaper missions

 

[Greycat]

Redside would need a huge revamp. More zones. More paths. Some that completely skirt Arachnos. Less "We're evil so we're also grey and dingy."

Redside needs fewer "You're a lackey (and possibly stupid)" storylines.

Redside has the issue of making *far* too many assumptions about your character and their motivations.

 

Honestly, even if something happened like, oh, "Redside gets 6x reward merits," someone would just switch, run the content giving the merits, and swap back.

 

Also, some of the Arachnos maps are just ... annoying. The "reactor" map, especially, comes to mind - most annoying in a kill all to have this 50 story high, mostly empty space with just a few elevators here and there to deal with (and don't forget the few catwalks, almost all with long drops.) One of the reasons I avoid redside - and, blueside, Theiry's arc - is to avoid these maps. I'll take layer-cake-cave maps over these any day.

 

Honestly, I don't think the "Hero takeover of Mercy" made things any better, either. (For much the same reason I don't really like the Arachnos presence in Faultline, but it's also... just sort of jumbled and not fun.)

 

Personally, I think revamping Redside to try to get a bigger population woul dtake a *lot* of work - and you still wouldn't come close to matching blueside, because of one common refrain - people wanting to be *heroes.* I think you'd almost have to get a "redside underground hero" path going. Me, I don't mind being a villain sometimes - I just want more to do, and not as a lackey, dupe or sadist.

[Peacemoon]

Yay I won something! 😃 Oh I really needed something positive to happen this week - thanks!
 

As for the discussion, something really radical maybe - allow villains and heroes to goto both paragon city and rogue isle and don’t make them faction specific. Just flag the content as whether it is villainous or heroIc. (I know we can already if we go vigilante or rogue - but I think even greater and freer access would help a lot.)

Longer term maybe regular content outside of tips could count towards your moral alignment, so if you decide to go do villainous stuff you start becoming a villain for example.

Trainers would ignore you and guards attack you if you’re in hostile territory.

Potentially some way of bringing PvP into normal zones (if you opt in)

Having your alignment visible by default rather than having to opt in might be good too. 

It’s a very rough idea and no means perfect, but I think this is one route for increasing the amount of villains.

 

Theres a lot that could/should be done with Rogue Isle as it’s really inferior to Paragon City in many ways - but that sort of work would unfortunately take so much extra effort 🙁
- I wish Rogue Isle was simply more of a  gothem city, like the opposite of paragon city, and it’s zones more connected and less ‘bitty’z It would be really cool to play in that sort of city - whereas Paragon City is quite pristine and bright and happy. My pet peeve about Rogue Isle is everything Arachnos. I’d feel the same way if everything in Paragon City was dominated by Longbow architecture.

 

I guess the real question is - do we just want more player villains ingame, or do we want more people in the Rogue Isle, and are the two things completely linked or can they be unpicked? 
I just think if you could create a villain and start in Kings Row, they would be much more popular. Even if the only ‘villain content’ was paper missions and mayhem missions. 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Peacemoon

[Darkneblade]

It will be cool if we can overthrow Recluse and rule Rogue Islands.

Pandora Box Signature Arc for example, on that arc you created organization to go against arachnos maybe you can go from there?

[FrauleinMental]

In addition to the relative lack of content, the existing content needs changes in color palette and tone.

 

But mainly, although the whole storyline vectors the character toward becoming the #1 lackey, she's still a lackey.  Some of the newspaper missions at least pretend you're starting some schemes on your own, but they don't tie a lot into the main story.  If I were to be stuck playing redside as it exists now, I would switch entirely to AE after about level 20, just because a villain isn't a villain without her own schemes.  It works blueside because heroes are reactive--they react to the villains' schemes--but it doesn't work redside because villains have to be proactive to provide driving force.

[Oubliette_Red]

57 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Redside would need a huge revamp. More zones. More paths. Some that completely skirt Arachnos. Less "We're evil so we're also grey and dingy."

Redside needs fewer "You're a lackey (and possibly stupid)" storylines.

Redside has the issue of making *far* too many assumptions about your character and their motivations.

 

Honestly, even if something happened like, oh, "Redside gets 6x reward merits," someone would just switch, run the content giving the merits, and swap back.

 

Also, some of the Arachnos maps are just ... annoying. The "reactor" map, especially, comes to mind - most annoying in a kill all to have this 50 story high, mostly empty space with just a few elevators here and there to deal with (and don't forget the few catwalks, almost all with long drops.) One of the reasons I avoid redside - and, blueside, Theiry's arc - is to avoid these maps. I'll take layer-cake-cave maps over these any day.

 

Honestly, I don't think the "Hero takeover of Mercy" made things any better, either. (For much the same reason I don't really like the Arachnos presence in Faultline, but it's also... just sort of jumbled and not fun.)

 

Personally, I think revamping Redside to try to get a bigger population woul dtake a *lot* of work - and you still wouldn't come close to matching blueside, because of one common refrain - people wanting to be *heroes.* I think you'd almost have to get a "redside underground hero" path going. Me, I don't mind being a villain sometimes - I just want more to do, and not as a lackey, dupe or sadist.

Bolded for emphasis.

 

Redside arcs presume way too much on a character's motivations and throws them all into the same pigeon hole.

[Parabola]

Was going to write a big long thing but it all boils down to; less arachnos, more agency.

[BurtHutt]

I think players will start to gravitate towards redside when blueside fatigue ramps up. This would be the hands off approach but will it be enough? Maybe. 

 

Redside does not need any type of overhaul or revamp. The design is better than blueside but it is gloomy. Honestly, I feel if you added unique content to redside, it may help a bit. I feel my suggestions in the AE forums (add well written/designed/fun player made arcs to the game) could be a quick fix. 

 

I also feel the game is quite repetitive with the same factions and the big bosses look like their factions (more often than not). Add player-made content that is unique and not in game. Add it to the redside as a pilot project - maybe turn the arc from AE into a short TF or a Death From Below style mission that is exclusive to redside only. I think a DFB style mish would definitely bring more to the redside.

 

Again, I will emphasize adding new factions and characters that are well written and have supporting info to add to the Homecoming wiki.

 

This would require less dev time and resources as there are a few talented players out there that have crafted unique content in the AE.

 

OH! I hope this is obvious but I do not mean any type of farms or the such to add into the game as canon.  🙂 

 

I will also add that I'd prefer any of these types of adds (if this route is taken) might be better off as sandox type content. That way they won't unravel, change or interfere with existing canon. Yes, I am again saying and emphasizing UNIQUE additions to the game. Many villains, factions and missions have been around for well over a decade. Change it up already! 🙂

Edited May 31, 2020 by BurtHutt

[Yoru-hime]

It's not that the writing is that bad, but writing for villains is that much harder than writing for heroes and the OG devs just weren't prepared for that.

 

There are two key problems as I see it.

 

First is lack of agency. No one tells Doctor Doom what to do, but almost every original mission redside has you serving as the muscle for someone else's endeavor. The contact-based mission distribution system naturally encouraged this, but the original CoV devs bought in whole-heartedly. The original devs seemed to have a singular vision of "villain" in their minds and I'd guess it was someone along the lines of the Sandman; a mean, greedy, stupid bully who just happens to have super-powers. The game quite regularly typecasts you as a crude thug and/or borderline maniac.

 

Second, we are naturally much more picky about what we allow our villains to do before declaring it "out of character". That's not an issue with the players, but a difference in the way villains are defined.

 

Think about it. Create a generic hero scenario. Bad guys robbing a bank. Now think of a hero that would notice but choose NOT to intervene. It's not easy without some adding some substantial plot twists to the scenario. That's what heroes are in our minds.

 

Now reverse that and think of villains that wouldn't naturally rob a bank.

 

Lex Luthor is already a financial titan.

Magneto is focused on his mutant crusade, not gathering wealth.

Darkseid could care less about the currency our puny civilization uses.

Monstrous villains may not even comprehend the abstract concept of money.

 

Again, you can do some plot twisting to put one of those character there and make it happen, but creating the list of uninterested villains is a lot easier. It takes a lot more mental gymnastics to get all the various story arcs to make sense for the villain you've imagined, not because of the writing, but because of the way that we think of villains.

 

Heroes are reactive, their identity is tied to how they choose to respond to a situation. The devs are fairly safe in creating the situation, as long as they don't go too far putting words in the character's mouth.

Villains are proactive, their identity is deeply tied to their motivation and what they choose to do to pursue it. Any part of the situation that the devs write can earn the "not MY character" condemnation by saying that their character would never choose to create or participate in such a scheme.

 

Magneto going around committing Joker-esque random acts of chaos and destruction simply stops feeling much like Magneto after a while.

 

I don't think it's impossible to write good redside arcs, but writing a redside arc that appeals regardless of character the way you can blueside just doesn't feel realistic. Our imaginations as players are just too broad.

[BurtHutt]

Another angle to take in regards to upping redside pop might be to turn some, if not all, hazard zones into co-op zones. That way redside and blue side toons have another venue to team and may cause some players to start redside. 

 

Right now, if a player is to start red, the most popular leveling tool is scarce - yes, that's DFB! Sure, they can go to pocket D and try to entice blue players to head there too but that's a bit of a pain at level one and around there. 

 

I prefer redside but I am reluctant to have any toon a Villain due to the lack of players willing to go there. 

[Apparition]

All red side needs, IMO, is a few more Strike Forces.  Add one at level eight - sixteen like Positron.  Add one at level 30 - 34 like Manticore.  Add one at level 40 - 45 like the Shadow Shard Task Forces.  Boom.  Done.

 

The only blue side zones that I like are Faultline, Striga Isle, and Croatoa.  I vastly prefer red side to blue side, and haven't played blue side since July of last year when I discovered that SGs are co-op now.

 

As for more red side zones... no thank you.  One of the reasons that I do vastly prefer red side is the fact that it has far fewer zones than blue side.  No "Go beat up 20 Hellions in Perez Park for me, then you have to come meet me all the way at the NE end of Skyway" missions.

[Apparition]

Just now, BurtHutt said:

Another angle to take in regards to upping redside pop might be to turn some, if not all, hazard zones into co-op zones. That way redside and blue side toons have another venue to team and may cause some players to start redside. 

 

Right now, if a player is to start red, the most popular leveling tool is scarce - yes, that's DFB! Sure, they can go to pocket D and try to entice blue players to head there too but that's a bit of a pain at level one and around there. 

 

I prefer redside but I am reluctant to have any toon a Villain due to the lack of players willing to go there. 

 

Sadly, you can not form co-op DFB teams in Pocket D.  I tried.  It didn't work.  

[BurtHutt]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

 

Sadly, you can not form co-op DFB teams in Pocket D.  I tried.  It didn't work.  

Drat! I went on a big assumption there...I guess I was reminded what happens when one assumes....

[BurtHutt]

3 minutes ago, Apparition said:

All red side needs, IMO, is a few more Strike Forces.  Add one at level eight - sixteen like Positron.  Add one at level 30 - 34 like Manticore.  Add one at level 40 - 45 like the Shadow Shard Task Forces.  Boom.  Done.

 

The only blue side zones that I like are Faultline, Striga Isle, and Croatoa.  I vastly prefer red side to blue side, and haven't played blue side since July of last year when I discovered that SGs are co-op now.

 

As for more red side zones... no thank you.  One of the reasons that I do vastly prefer red side is the fact that it has far fewer zones than blue side.  No "Go beat up 20 Hellions in Perez Park for me, then you have to come meet me all the way at the NE end of Skyway" missions.

Totally agree. Add some more SFs. And PLEASE pay attention to design and make them enjoyable. Most of the SFs are decent but a few are painful. However, blueside has a boatload more of painful TFs but..I digress 🙂

[Apparition]

Here's the honest truth.  You're not going to vastly increase red side population.  The people that either mostly or entirely play red side now (like me), play it because we like it the way it is.  Any big changes (like zone revamps, or adding additional zones), are more than likely just going to honk us off on the hopes of attracting more blue side players to come check it out.  Most likely, they will... then flee back to the comfort of blue side in a month or two, just leaving the formerly happy red side players honked off.

 

Letting villains start off blue side would just dilute red side more than it is already.  Even then, some of us current villains actively dislike blue side and try to avoid some of its zones (looking at you Atlas), as much as humanly possible.

[Greycat]

28 minutes ago, BurtHutt said:

I think players will start to gravitate towards redside when blueside fatigue ramps up. This would be the hands off approach but will it be enough? Maybe. 

 

 

They had all the way from issue... six? to shutdown, and that didn't happen. (Honestly, for me the reverse was true. There's *so little* variety to redside, it feels like you're just going to do the exact same thing over and over again with another character. Blueside I can do the hollows, or investigate the Skulls, then head into Skyway or Steel for different contact chains, do Faultline or not, hit Talos or IP for different groups, hit Striga or send my magically-iunterested folks to Croatoa... Redside its the same... thing... over... and...over.  If any side leads to burnout, it's redside.

[BurtHutt]

19 minutes ago, Yoru-hime said:

It's not that the writing is that bad, but writing for villains is that much harder than writing for heroes and the OG devs just weren't prepared for that.

 

There are two key problems as I see it.

 

First is lack of agency. No one tells Doctor Doom what to do, but almost every original mission redside has you serving as the muscle for someone else's endeavor. The contact-based mission distribution system naturally encouraged this, but the original CoV devs bought in whole-heartedly. The original devs seemed to have a singular vision of "villain" in their minds and I'd guess it was someone along the lines of the Sandman; a mean, greedy, stupid bully who just happens to have super-powers. The game quite regularly typecasts you as a crude thug and/or borderline maniac.

 

Second, we are naturally much more picky about what we allow our villains to do before declaring it "out of character". That's not an issue with the players, but a difference in the way villains are defined.

 

Think about it. Create a generic hero scenario. Bad guys robbing a bank. Now think of a hero that would notice but choose NOT to intervene. It's not easy without some adding some substantial plot twists to the scenario. That's what heroes are in our minds.

 

Now reverse that and think of villains that wouldn't naturally rob a bank.

 

Lex Luthor is already a financial titan.

Magneto is focused on his mutant crusade, not gathering wealth.

Darkseid could care less about the currency our puny civilization uses.

Monstrous villains may not even comprehend the abstract concept of money.

 

Again, you can do some plot twisting to put one of those character there and make it happen, but creating the list of uninterested villains is a lot easier. It takes a lot more mental gymnastics to get all the various story arcs to make sense for the villain you've imagined, not because of the writing, but because of the way that we think of villains.

 

Heroes are reactive, their identity is tied to how they choose to respond to a situation. The devs are fairly safe in creating the situation, as long as they don't go too far putting words in the character's mouth.

Villains are proactive, their identity is deeply tied to their motivation and what they choose to do to pursue it. Any part of the situation that the devs write can earn the "not MY character" condemnation by saying that their character would never choose to create or participate in such a scheme.

 

Magneto going around committing Joker-esque random acts of chaos and destruction simply stops feeling much like Magneto after a while.

 

I don't think it's impossible to write good redside arcs, but writing a redside arc that appeals regardless of character the way you can blueside just doesn't feel realistic. Our imaginations as players are just too broad.

I somewhat agree with this but I still played red despite the narrative. I actually don't think it was cool implying your toon is attached to Arachnos or a Recluse lackey or anything along those lines.

 

I do feel low level villains would do a lot of what you listed- have to start somewhere! Again, I would like to see something more grande put into missions but that's what happens with limited resources. 

 

Honestly, I place more importance on mission design and play than story. So, add something fun and unique and that milkshake will bring the players to the yard!

 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

I play mostly solo, and a few months ago went on Redside with a vengeance.  I avoided it mostly for the color scheme, to be honest.

 

Playing it, I really enjoyed it and probably levelled up about 15-20 villains.  

 

My complaints:  there is not enough content.  I barely read the text, so I'm not going to judge whether it's a better story line.  But there's not enough choice.  Unless you are zerging through TF/SF content and outlevelling like crazy, you end up running the same content not out of choice but out of necessity.

 

What I suspect to be other people's complaints:  It's a lot harder than blueside.  There are more difficult enemies at earlier levels.  There are a lot more EBs/AVs.  There are a ridiculous number of ambushes.  Personally, I enjoy the challenge, but it's a lot harder, and unless people embrace the challenge, they are going to demand more rewards for the experience.  

 

It is ironic that redside content benefits more from teamwork than blueside, while redside ATs are more solo based and it's just much harder to get a team redside than blueside.

[Apparition]

8 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I play mostly solo, and a few months ago went on Redside with a vengeance.  I avoided it mostly for the color scheme, to be honest.

 

Playing it, I really enjoyed it and probably levelled up about 15-20 villains.  

 

My complaints:  there is not enough content.  I barely read the text, so I'm not going to judge whether it's a better story line.  But there's not enough choice.  Unless you are zerging through TF/SF content and outlevelling like crazy, you end up running the same content not out of choice but out of necessity.

 

What I suspect to be other people's complaints:  It's a lot harder than blueside.  There are more difficult enemies at earlier levels.  There are a lot more EBs/AVs.  There are a ridiculous number of ambushes.  Personally, I enjoy the challenge, but it's a lot harder, and unless people embrace the challenge, they are going to demand more rewards for the experience.  

 

It is ironic that redside content benefits more from teamwork than blueside, while redside ATs are more solo based and it's just much harder to get a team redside than blueside.

 

Yep.  I am amused that most people who repeatedly claim that the game is too easy repeatedly run Council radio missions.  But play red side, or God forbid gold side?  *Balk.*  *Go back to running Council radio missions.*

[FrauleinMental]

49 minutes ago, Apparition said:

All red side needs, IMO, is a few more Strike Forces.  Add one at level eight - sixteen like Positron.  Add one at level 30 - 34 like Manticore.  Add one at level 40 - 45 like the Shadow Shard Task Forces.  Boom.  Done.

I'm currently waiting out the 7-day villain badge on my main (nominally a vigilante and gets the vast majority of my play time), and I noticed just how few SFs there are for redside.

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, FrauleinMental said:

I'm currently waiting out the 7-day villain badge on my main (nominally a vigilante and gets the vast majority of my play time), and I noticed just how few SFs there are for redside.

 

Yeah.  That's the main issue with red side, IMO.  The other things that others complain about (the lack of red side zones, how gritty the red side zones are, how difficult red side is compared to blue side), I like those things. :P

[Peacemoon]

1 hour ago, Yoru-hime said:

It's not that the writing is that bad, but writing for villains is that much harder than writing for heroes and the OG devs just weren't prepared for that.

 

There are two key problems as I see it.

 

First is lack of agency. No one tells Doctor Doom what to do, but almost every original mission redside has you serving as the muscle for someone else's endeavor. The contact-based mission distribution system naturally encouraged this, but the original CoV devs bought in whole-heartedly. The original devs seemed to have a singular vision of "villain" in their minds and I'd guess it was someone along the lines of the Sandman; a mean, greedy, stupid bully who just happens to have super-powers. The game quite regularly typecasts you as a crude thug and/or borderline maniac.

 

Second, we are naturally much more picky about what we allow our villains to do before declaring it "out of character". That's not an issue with the players, but a difference in the way villains are defined.

 

Think about it. Create a generic hero scenario. Bad guys robbing a bank. Now think of a hero that would notice but choose NOT to intervene. It's not easy without some adding some substantial plot twists to the scenario. That's what heroes are in our minds.

 

Now reverse that and think of villains that wouldn't naturally rob a bank.

 

Lex Luthor is already a financial titan.

Magneto is focused on his mutant crusade, not gathering wealth.

Darkseid could care less about the currency our puny civilization uses.

Monstrous villains may not even comprehend the abstract concept of money.

 

Again, you can do some plot twisting to put one of those character there and make it happen, but creating the list of uninterested villains is a lot easier. It takes a lot more mental gymnastics to get all the various story arcs to make sense for the villain you've imagined, not because of the writing, but because of the way that we think of villains.

 

Heroes are reactive, their identity is tied to how they choose to respond to a situation. The devs are fairly safe in creating the situation, as long as they don't go too far putting words in the character's mouth.

Villains are proactive, their identity is deeply tied to their motivation and what they choose to do to pursue it. Any part of the situation that the devs write can earn the "not MY character" condemnation by saying that their character would never choose to create or participate in such a scheme.

 

Magneto going around committing Joker-esque random acts of chaos and destruction simply stops feeling much like Magneto after a while.

 

I don't think it's impossible to write good redside arcs, but writing a redside arc that appeals regardless of character the way you can blueside just doesn't feel realistic. Our imaginations as players are just too broad.

You're really right about villain motivation being much more specific than hero motivation. 
 

If we were starting from the start again and creating City of Villains today, you could create different ‘paths’ for the Villain like they have with Going Rogue.

So in Going Rogue you have Responsibility, Power, Warden and Crusader. As villains you could have things like Destruction, Manipulator, Money, Infamy- I.e choose a general motivation or path for your villain that then unlocks a story route which focuses on your selection. Or have a situation where you can decide how best to handle the situation - blow up the building, charm/manipulate the owner, etc. 
 

This all goes out of the scope of what the HC could probably do, but the question on what is wrong with CoV goes pretty deep!

 

I would still vote for starting my villains in Kings Row and just being allowed to do villainous stuff in Paragon City 😉

Edited May 31, 2020 by Peacemoon

[BurtHutt]

5 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

You're really right about villain motivation being much more specific than hero motivation. 
 

If we were starting from the start again and creating City of Villains today, you could create different ‘paths’ for the Villain like they have with Going Rogue.

So in Going Rogue you have Responsibility, Power, Warden and Crusader. As villains you could have things like Destruction, Manipulator, Money, Infamy- I.e choose a general motivation or path for your villain that then unlocks a story route which focuses on your selection. Or have a situation where you can decide how best to handle the situation - blow up the building, charm/manipulate the owner, etc. 
 

This all goes out of the scope of what the HC could probably do, but the question on what is wrong with CoV goes pretty deep!

 

I would still vote for starting my villains in Kings Row and just being allowed to do villainous stuff in Paragon City 😉

Disagree. I really don't like my toons pigeon-holed at all. They can change and adapt and so on as I please - if I was designing things. So, adding more of this is a bad idea but that is just my opinion. Instead, add more missions with some more epic motivations and goals - but there is no need to be robbing a bank at high levels...