Weekly Discussion 54: Martial Arts

[Sailboat]

6 hours ago, Redlynne said:

When a melee powerset has 1 AoE attack ... it's an ALL OR NOTHING proposition whether or not that 1 AoE attack ought to be granted to Stalkers.

Dragon's Tail in Martial Arts is such a case.

 

I say yes.

You say no.

 

Now, if none of the Stalker primaries had any AoE attacks allowed in them, I'd say you have a leg to stand on ... but since that's obviously not true ...

 

This seems like an aggressive response.

[cranebump]

Give MA the Shuriken attack from the assault set.

[Shred Monkey]

6 hours ago, cranebump said:

Give MA the Shuriken attack from the assault set.

I kind of like this idea, because... well.. Batman.  But I don't agree with the underlying principle.  I want the CoH we lost wholly preserved.  

 

Adding powersets and content is ok.  Tweaking is powers is ok only if done well.  Removing powers/content, is not ok.

 

 

[Chance Jackson]

8 hours ago, cranebump said:

Give MA the Shuriken attack from the assault set.

I support it

[ShardWarrior]

2 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

I want the CoH we lost wholly preserved.  

If we do that, the game stagnates and withers away on the vine.

[Chance Jackson]

On 6/9/2020 at 9:22 AM, mechahamham said:

Your suggestions are good, except for getting rid of the knockback. I like my KB on Dragon's Tail. I WANT my enemies to go hurling away so I can chase them down. There are already options for players who want to change KB. Don't take it away from those who want it.

Neither CAK nor DT intentionally do knockback, DT is set to do KD on most opponents. Affaik only Crane Kick intentionally does KB

[Uun]

20 hours ago, Keen said:

Many of the Martial Arts animations are great, but once Martial Assault for Blasters came around with that *amazing* spinning kick animation, I just want that ported to MA. That's my #1 request for the set.

Just to clarify, Martial Assault and Spinning Kick are for Dominators. Blasters get Martial Combat and a version of Storm Kick that does knockdown and has chance of lethal DOT.

[Lockpick]

On 6/8/2020 at 10:26 PM, zenijos10 said:

 

I think this would be great.    I totally would be happy to see these changes!

 

As someone who played 100s of hours on the original servers as an MA, I offer a more radical (and possibly not possible and probably unrealistic) set of options designed to modernize the set while increasing consistency and remaining in line with the martial arts theme.  Replace Focus Chi with stances or styles that affect the following powers only: Thunder Kick, Storm Kick, Crippling Axe Kick.

 

Feral Tiger:   Each attack has a small chance to fire off a proc with the effect of the current focus chi.   I don't know how to determine an appropriate proc rate?  Make it fire off roughly twice a minute?

Drunken Monkey:  Each successful attack increases defense (melee, smashing) like parry, but a smaller amount, say 3% for ten seconds.

Iron Horse:  Each successful attack increases resistance (smashing, lethal, fire, cold) by 3% for ten seconds.

Dancing Dragon : Each attack automatically does a magnitude 1 stun in addition to whatever it normally does.

Trampling Elephant:  Each attack automatically does a magnitude 1 knockdown in addition to whatever it normally does.

 

This would recreate the feeling of classic kung fu flicks by allowing free flowing movement of martial arts style.

I like this idea, but not sure I like replacing Focus Chi.  I would suggest that taking Focus Chi opens up these toggles.

[Shred Monkey]

3 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

If we do that, the game stagnates and withers away on the vine.

(psst... read the next line)

[Galaxy Brain]

As others have mentioned, MA is a middle of the road set and its unfortunate that it gets kind of outshined by newer sets in terms of damage and utility. It essentially occupies the same space as Super Strength and Street Justice where you are an "unarmed combatant", and while those other ones don't has as much finesse they do similar tasks arguably better.

 

On top of this, other "Martial" sets have been adapted that do even more with the concept in terms of adding more tropes like Reaction Time, or just better versions of powers like the Spinning Kick.

 

Those sets also have more diverse powers in general. MA as-is has a chunk of powers that have basically the same Damage/Activation time / recharges but have a different secondary effect. In theory that is cool, but as you build your character you end up only really using some if not one of those powers in a rotation since the secondary effects are well... secondary and they just become interchangeable attacks. That said, it is also what sorta makes the set stand out from the other "unarmed" sets given it has a slew of control-ish powers that also deal respectable damage, I just think this could be tweaked.

 

Super Strength is just raw power, it shouldn't have any finesse and instead focus on raw stats (Rage, etc).

 

Street Justice is a mix of fighting styles that let you scrap and open up opponents for big hits.

 

Martial Arts should be on the opposite side of Super Strength with the middle being StJ. It should have a variety of skillful powers that alter both you and your opponent's stance (stats) much like how in Martial Arts media you see the combatants constantly shifting and attacking in clever ways. 

 

The Brute/Tanker versions have a power that gives +Def, several powers inflict minor control or debuffs, and Eagle's Claw gives a hidden Critical or Damage boost. Lets expand on that and have MA powers all have both a minor +Self/-Enemy component. Add in a  Self +Rech on hit for 5 sec, a Self +End Discount for 5 sec, etc, while also having each power do something to the enemy besides damage (usually stun, knockdown, -Def, etc). Make all versions of Storm Kick a 3-target narrow cone that gives +Defense, and make all versions of Eagle's Claw give self +Damage with maybe a large boost immediately and a smaller boost that lasts a bit longer, stuff like that.

 

Then, alter Focus Chi to gives 80% damage boost (Down from 100% [Scrapper values]), and add in a 20-25% Power Boost effect. 

 

Melee characters do not generally get access to +Special and adding that in not only boosts the self buffs and debuffs that MA could do within the set, but also boost your Armor Powers while active, carving out a niche for MA that other sets cannot as easily compete with. 

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

35 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

(psst... read the next line)

I did.

[ImpousVileTerror]

I like the Power Boost effect in Focus Chi idea!

Very on-brand for Martial Arts, improves utility, and preserves the Set overall so that people can feel less inclined to shout "COTTAGE!"

[Redlynne]

6 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Lets expand on that and have MA powers all have both a minor +Self/-Enemy component.

That's Kinetic Melee.

6 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Add in a  Self +Rech on hit for 5 sec

Baking Force Feedback into attacks?  That's power creep right there.

6 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

a Self +End Discount for 5 sec

Staff Melee?

6 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

while also having each power do something to the enemy besides damage (usually stun, knockdown, -Def, etc).

Martial Arts already does Stuns, Immobilize and Knock effects.

6 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Make all versions of Storm Kick a 3-target narrow cone that gives +Defense

More power creep.

6 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

and make all versions of Eagle's Claw give self +Damage with maybe a large boost immediately and a smaller boost that lasts a bit longer

And even more power creep.

 

 

 

I'm going to have to decline to support what you're advocating for.

[Galaxy Brain]

43 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

That's Kinetic Melee.

Then so is any set that gives +def or hp on a melee attack

43 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Baking Force Feedback into attacks?  That's power creep right there.

Cross Punch

43 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Staff Melee?

Savage also has this, so it's not unique

43 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Martial Arts already does Stuns, Immobilize and Knock effects.

Was more emphasizing this point

43 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

More power creep.

And even more power creep.

I'm going to have to decline to support what you're advocating for.

Both things quoted aside from the 3 target cone are present in versions of MA already. The added damage buff on Eagles Claw aims to make up for the dropped damage on Focus Chi.

 

Not everything there needs to be done. Focus Chi having +Special alone could be fun enough to stand out as it meshes with armor sets, but making MA stand out a bit more mechanically from StJ I think would be nice alongside the aesthetic. 

[Saikochoro]

Martial arts has been my favorite powerset since live.  I don’t feel particularly weak when I play it. Nor do I feel particularly strong. 

 

The two things I enjoy about martial arts are the animations and the single target damage. Unlike most others, I would rather lean into its strengths than go the route of adding more AoE. There are plenty of other sets that boast good aoe. Martial arts doesn’t need to be one of those. 
 

I think martial arts should stay a single target focused set.  If any buffs were to occur I think it should be to lean into its single target nature and be more of a boss killer and less of an AoE minions to death set. I think it should be a premier single target set.  There are plenty of routes to do that. I also fine with there being no changes.

[CaptainLupis]

We already have tohit affecting damage in snipe powers, how about for MA more tohit increases the chance for the mezzes to land from their current level up to 95 or 100%? It would be like targetting specific body parts to cause the effect.

[killigraphy]

For starters, the moves just look ugly. Always has been. The slow moving, corny looking kicks, have always kept me away or at low levels with MA.

-For sure replace the current animation of Storm Kick, with that of the Storm Kick from Martial Combat (blaster secondary). Looks smoother, and much more appealing.

 

Everything else, the nerds have dissected and discussed....but really, make the set look cooler. If you're gonna keep the (crane) blade kick, make it look more like Ryu's in Third Strike, As for Thunder Kick...smh, just put in the "No can defend kick" from Karate Kid, I'd rather have something look more spectacular than boring and one dimensional.

[GM Miss]

On 6/8/2020 at 5:53 AM, parabola said:

MA is amazing on tanks but I have no experience with it on brutes or scrappers and you couldn't pay me to take it on a stalker. No aoe? Seriously?!

 

I can't help noticing that as predicted our journey through dark sets has finished before we stopped talking about sets that are absolutely fine and got onto one that would have actually been worth discussing: dark blast. Obviously totally off topic now but please can we look at the structure of the cones in dark blast to bring them closer together in range and arc?

We are talking about them in the order of their voting. 

[Parabola]

3 minutes ago, GM Miss said:

We are talking about them in the order of their voting. 

Oh indeed. I wasn't suggesting there has been malicious intent. It does look a little like people have voted to talk about the sets they like rather than ones that need it though. I'm certainly not saying dark blast is in the energy melee or trick arrow category either. I just saw the run of dark sets and thought 'great, we'll get onto dark blast in a bit, I can bang on about it's ease of use again'.