Bonfire and Sudden Acceleration dont work well together

[Damoklese]

So on my level 28 fire controller tonight, I went ahead and splurged on a 4mil inf sudden acceleration knockback to knockdown enhancement(im poor).  I was severely disappointed when I noticed that my very reliable knockback was turned into an unreliable knockdown.  After trudging through some +2 missions I decided to drop another 140k on an unslotter to see if I was crazy or if bonfire really had become crappy. 

 

So against some green and blue mobs I tried bonfire with it slotted and unslotted.

 

Slotted.. I would get maybe one knockdown on them before they got up and ran out of the AOE.  I tried it again with an AOE immobilize and bonfire, and that got me 2 or 3 knockdowns before they could run out of it.

 

Then I unslotted it and tried it.  Guaranteed knockback on everything.   Anything that entered it went flying.   Using an immobilize on them first, and they would bounce like a basketball until (for some reason) it would knock them out of the AOE after the 5th or 6th knockdown.

 

So for some reason when you slot sudden acceleration in bonfire.. rather than having it work just as effectively, but without the need for immobilize... it instead becomes a fairly unreliable knockdown that still requires you to immobilize things in it to get any kind of use out of it.

 

So.. be warned.  If you slot sudden acceleration in bonfire, you are basically nerfing it.

[Seigmoraig]

3 hours ago, Damoklese said:

So on my level 28 fire controller tonight, I went ahead and splurged on a 4mil inf sudden acceleration knockback to knockdown enhancement(im poor). 

Sucks to hear that guy, the most easy way to get funds is to sell your Merit Awards that you get from Taskforces. Just go see the Merit Vendor and go to the Salvage section and buy Enhancement Boosters they sell for anywhere between 1.3 and 1.5mill a pop. Doing this nets a much better cash rate on your merits than buying enhancements for 100 merits each. Do the weekly TF/SF on all your characters every day and you should be getting 10-20mill per run depending on which TF/SF it is in any given week

Edited June 10, 2020 by Seigmoraig

[tidge]

5 hours ago, Damoklese said:

So.. be warned.  If you slot sudden acceleration in bonfire, you are basically nerfing it.

 

I agree that you are changing the end result, but the change has direct benefits relating to keeping enemies where they are (for AoE).

Edited June 10, 2020 by tidge

[Coyote]

9 hours ago, Damoklese said:

Using an immobilize on them first, and they would bounce like a basketball until (for some reason) it would knock them out of the AOE after the 5th or 6th knockdown.

 

Most Controller Immobilizes (including Fire ones) have a 10 second period after application where they convert KnockBACK to KnockDOWN. So as long as you're going to spam them, you don't need a KB converter in Bonfire. That's why they bounce up and down for a while, then get knocked out.

 

Bonfire with a KB converter changes its pulse period from better than one per second to once every two seconds. That's still enough to be great... a good chance to knockdown mobs every two seconds with no drawbacks is a great power. If you don't put a converter in it, then it will do it more often, which makes it better... but only as long as you keep spamming Immobs (and the AoE one is expensive, especially if you're also running Hot Feet). A knockback patch that knocks mobs out of its own area is not as good as a knockdown patch that operates at a lower frequency, which is why many posters will advise to slot a KB to KD converter into Bonfire.

 

Personally, I love it with the KD converter... this allows it to be used in another area, or around a corner, without having to concentrate on that area with Fire Cages. So I can Flashfire/Fire Cages a spawn, and then if adds come in, Bonfire can be thrown at them without worrying about applying Fire Cages. Mobs generally run into it, and fall down regularly. When they get up, they take a ranged shot... and then fall down again. The only mobs who are resistant to it are mobs like Warwulves who don't have many ranged attacks so won't stay in it, and move fast enough to  get up and run out before it knocks them down again.

[roleki]

The funny thing is, to ME, Bonfire was an auto-skip UNTIL I saw what the KB:KD enh transformed it into.  Now it's pretty much my opener on all my Fire/ stuff, and on my En/En blaster out of the EPP.  I find for the most part it glues a mob in place (like an Immob) but without the ability to fire back (better than an Immob).  

[Dr Causality]

12 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

Bonfire with a KB converter changes its pulse period from better than one per second to once every two seconds.

Didn't realize this changed the pulse frequency.     Is it the same for both the Overwhelming Force and Sudden Acceleration?      

[Coyote]

6 hours ago, Dr Causality said:

Didn't realize this changed the pulse frequency.     Is it the same for both the Overwhelming Force and Sudden Acceleration?      

 

I believe so, but I don't have a link directly from a developer saying so. But I thought that they seemed to work the same, so it's probably the case.

[Psyonico]

20 hours ago, Coyote said:

Bonfire with a KB converter changes its pulse period from better than one per second to once every two seconds.

Do we know if this is intentional or not? and if it is intentional, why?

[Coyote]

12 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Do we know if this is intentional or not? and if it is intentional, why?

 

I think it's because the knockback version pulses too fast with too high a chance to knockback. As a knockback that knocks mobs out of its own area, it just makes it work very consistently (but self-defeatingly since unless you're in a small room the mobs will bounce out after a fall or two). But as a knockdown, if it were as consistent, basically it would knock every mob in the area down and just keep dribbling them like basketballs. I don't know if they'd get to act again. It would overtake Seeds of Confusion as the best AoE control in the game.

[Dr Causality]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

 

I believe so, but I don't have a link directly from a developer saying so. But I thought that they seemed to work the same, so it's probably the case.

Makes sense.    The difference (besides damage) is just that Overwhelming adds a chance for KD.    But in Bonfire I suspect that would only get a chance to proc once every 10s, so the impact would be negligible. 

[ninja surprise]

I only have Bonfire on a blaster and I love it with the KD enhancer. They flop a few times and by then I've defeated them.

I might get it on my fire/kin soon and I'll stick with the KD, I much prefer it to shooting foes all over the area after gathering them for destruction.

[Chrome]

i feel like this is bait or just posted to be contrary. while i agree that there are some people who like kb and others who dont, stating that this is a nerf is akin to TW needs a buff because the tanker changes didnt affect it.  

[Coyote]

23 hours ago, Chrome said:

i feel like this is bait or just posted to be contrary. while i agree that there are some people who like kb and others who dont, stating that this is a nerf is akin to TW needs a buff because the tanker changes didnt affect it.  

 

It's also possible that the OP's experience was to ALWAYS use it on top of Fire Cages, which were being spammed. In that case, it WOULD be weaker. It's just that as soon as you stop spamming AoE Immobilizes, it becomes a lot stronger with the KD... but if the OP just fired Fire Cages all the time, they may always have used in a situation where it's stronger without the conversion IOs in it.

[Frosticus]

I can relate to the OP. When I picked it up on my fire dom I had extremely high hopes for the power based on the hype it gets. I was initially disappointed in the performance, but eventually embraced it as another layer of control rather than a control in and of itself. In that role it is a nice big aoe that is up all the time and even does a decent amount of damage. 

[Troyusrex]

Count me amoungst those who LOVE bonfire with KB-KD! That said, it's on a blaster who is thrilled to have any control at all. 

[kiramon]

Use it to break an alpha and call it day.

[Dahle]

I absolutely love Bonfire with the KB-KD too.  I have a Fire/Storm Popcorn build that is extremely fun with it.  And a Fire/Rad that opens with it and can place 3 of them under harder spawns, which is excessive but entertaining also.  Only issue... cast time.  But really if you aren't building around it, maybe it isn't for you. 

[SwitchFade]

KB to KD in bonfire is amazing, true game changer. Much love for that enhance!

[Chrome]

Aside from the improved control ability with kb-kd, you are also enabling your targets to take the full damage of bonfire instead of a tiny portion of it.  with the kb still active, you targets may only take one or two ticks of damage and then flung out of the damage.  

 

while you may not be getting as many knocks as without the pure KB over all the power is significantly better with kb-kd

[Nyghtmaire]

On 7/14/2020 at 3:51 PM, Frosticus said:

I can relate to the OP. When I picked it up on my fire dom I had extremely high hopes for the power based on the hype it gets. I was initially disappointed in the performance, but eventually embraced it as another layer of control rather than a control in and of itself. In that role it is a nice big aoe that is up all the time and even does a decent amount of damage. 

Full agreement.
 

In addition, Bonfire with the Force Feedback proc (usually clamped at 90% unless the power’s recharge is also slotted to the max) supercharges your global recharge right at the beginning of the encounter and on each successive cast, which is usually when you benefit from more recharge. Generally, I’m finding *more* recharge *more* valuable in combat that when out, but that’s a big YMMV perspective. 
 

I appreciate the discussion in this thread about the relative mitigation value of bonfire + cages vs. bonfire with the KD conversion. I think the opportunity cost of additional damage (with KD), e.g. keeping mobs in the patch, outweighs mitigation for a controller in most instances. However, OP had a good use for the power without the IO for her/his play style. Different strokes and all!

[Hedgefund]

On 6/11/2020 at 10:51 AM, Coyote said:

 

I think it's because the knockback version pulses too fast with too high a chance to knockback. As a knockback that knocks mobs out of its own area, it just makes it work very consistently (but self-defeatingly since unless you're in a small room the mobs will bounce out after a fall or two). But as a knockdown, if it were as consistent, basically it would knock every mob in the area down and just keep dribbling them like basketballs. I don't know if they'd get to act again. It would overtake Seeds of Confusion as the best AoE control in the game.

The "dribbling" is exactly what happened when the Overwhelming Force set was introduced and Bonfire with OF proc was indeed the best aoe control and I mean by far.  It didn't take long before it got fixed to current behavior.

[roleki]

2 hours ago, Hedgefund said:

The "dribbling" is exactly what happened when the Overwhelming Force set was introduced and Bonfire with OF proc was indeed the best aoe control and I mean by far.  It didn't take long before it got fixed to current behavior.

All proper respect to Seeds of Confusion, but in my opinion, Bonfire slotted a certain way makes it the best AoE control in the game.  Give it Bombardment Dam/Rech and Acc/Dam/Rech, along with Annihilation of the same, a FF+Rech and a KB:KD; slotted that way you get a 25' wide AoE that lingers for 45s and can be fired every 20s (or less, depending on your global recharge) from over 70' away without the requirement of LoS.  

 

Once you drop a Bonfire patch, you get a burst of +100% recharge right there; even with all the enhanced +Rech, it still procs on cast the overwhelming majority of the time.   The patch loiters for 45s, affecting anyone already in the AoE AND anyone who wanders into it.  Beyond the chance for KD, the patch also does DoT, slows the mob, and causes them to flee the immediate area.  Only after that initial 'flight' response do they take time to try and fire back; if the mob is still around at this point, you're already halfway to dropping another Bonfire on them, which basically puts an end to any incoming fire.  

 

Again, not taking anything away from Seeds, it's ridiculously effective and probably the 'safest' control in the City; you can basically strip naked and run around solo simply off the strength of Seeds alone, and do so within an hour of stepping foot in Atlas.  That's amazing.  I just happen to have a great appreciation for the additional options the +Range, -LoS, and loiter time that Bonfire brings to the table now that it has KB:KD going for it.

[Dahle]

1 hour ago, roleki said:

All proper respect to Seeds of Confusion, but in my opinion, Bonfire slotted a certain way makes it the best AoE control in the game.  Give it Bombardment Dam/Rech and Acc/Dam/Rech, along with Annihilation of the same, a FF+Rech and a KB:KD; slotted that way you get a 25' wide AoE that lingers for 45s and can be fired every 20s (or less, depending on your global recharge) from over 70' away without the requirement of LoS.  

 

Once you drop a Bonfire patch, you get a burst of +100% recharge right there; even with all the enhanced +Rech, it still procs on cast the overwhelming majority of the time.   The patch loiters for 45s, affecting anyone already in the AoE AND anyone who wanders into it.  Beyond the chance for KD, the patch also does DoT, slows the mob, and causes them to flee the immediate area.  Only after that initial 'flight' response do they take time to try and fire back; if the mob is still around at this point, you're already halfway to dropping another Bonfire on them, which basically puts an end to any incoming fire.  

 

Again, not taking anything away from Seeds, it's ridiculously effective and probably the 'safest' control in the City; you can basically strip naked and run around solo simply off the strength of Seeds alone, and do so within an hour of stepping foot in Atlas.  That's amazing.  I just happen to have a great appreciation for the additional options the +Range, -LoS, and loiter time that Bonfire brings to the table now that it has KB:KD going for it.

I love that if you do build Perma-Haste, you get the 20 sec recharge and don't need anything but 1 slot to make it this good.  And if you have 1 additional slot you can just slot the FF +Rech in it for the extra boost.  Really amazing that I get so much mileage from 2 slots, it is the backbone of my Fire/Dark and Fire/Rad.  Just amazing.

[roleki]

48 minutes ago, Dahle said:

I love that if you do build Perma-Haste, you get the 20 sec recharge and don't need anything but 1 slot to make it this good.  And if you have 1 additional slot you can just slot the FF +Rech in it for the extra boost.  Really amazing that I get so much mileage from 2 slots, it is the backbone of my Fire/Dark and Fire/Rad.  Just amazing.

I haven't tried 'underslotting' it yet... I go 6-wide whether it needs it or not.  On my Fire/TA that's waiting for the pieces of its REAL build, I have Bonfire at ~20s, then on my Fire/Storm what runs around at nearly 300% global recharge BEFORE Ageless, it's down to ~15s.  (That's up for debate, the first number that pops up in the countdown is 13, but that would mean I've somehow circumvented the rule that floors individual power recharge at 25% base, so I am chalking it up to inaccurate graphical representation of the remaining recharge time).  In any case, I might still Boost the enhancements on that guy, because the whole concept of that build is ridiculous recharge.