Weekly Discussion 56: Traps

[tidge]

9 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

Purple triangles don’t protect AVs against immobilise, if that’s what you’re implying? 
 

I think if there were any changes to sticky web grenades, the most likely would be some additional debuff on the effect. I think Arachnos also have a web grenade that holds?

I thought the Purple triangles DID protect against immobilize, but a quick check of the paragonwiki shows I was wrong. It is still a status effect, so I still can't imagine spamming Web Grenade just to try to optimize the drop of a Poison Trap... just drop the trap! Recharge in the Trap is going to be a better investment than Accuracy/Immobilize/Recharge in Web Grenade.

Edited June 22, 2020 by tidge
spleling

[Chance Jackson]

14 hours ago, tidge said:

This is an extreme corner case that I don't think supports the argument as made. The Purple Triangles are already making most of the "Hard Targets" mentioned very difficult to Immobilize. Poison Trap already accepts Hold slotting. I can't imagine investing slots in Web Grenade to try to improve performance in the scenario described.

 

I was trying to think of a time when -Fly actually brings reliable value. The only scenario I can recall are the TF/SF involving Colonel Duray as he will go zipping all over the place... especially in the Silver Mantis Strike Force where he can fly into other Sky Raiders. I have been annoyed by CoT ghosts who fly off, but they will eventually come back.

 

AFAIK:

-Purple Triangles do not meaningfully increase Immob Protection if at all so unless an AV has a power like Unstoppable(like Ms Liberty) or has inherently high protection to immobilization(like Synapse)  they can easily be Immobilized for the entirety of the fight if you have stacked up to 6 Mag of Immob which 2 web grenades will accomplish

 

-Poison Trap Has an initial very short hold period & iirc the rest of the holding works like a proc with a very short duration in either case the hold periods have very high magnitude & short duration 

Even then Poison Trap must be triggered before it can hold, if you are down to an AV & it moves before poison trap is triggered you can probably consider that trap a loss & Henchmen's high threat level will mean said AV will go after them.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Chance Jackson
Grammar

[tidge]

7 minutes ago, Chance Jackson said:

Even then Poison Trap must be triggered before it can hold, if you are down to an AV & it moves before poison trap is triggered you can probably consider that trap a loss & Henchmen's high threat level will mean said AV will go after them.

This assumes that the Henchmen are not within range of the AV's attacks.

[Peacemoon]

4 minutes ago, tidge said:

I thought the Purple triangles DID protect against immobilize, but a quick check of the paragonwiki shows I was wrong. It is still a status effect, so I still can't imagine spamming Web Grenade just to try to optimize the drop of a Poison Trap... just drop the trap! Recharge in the Trap is going to be a better investment than Accuracy/Immobilize/Recharge in Web Grenade.

Keeping AVs still is a very useful skill for some builds. Particularly Illusion/Traps which has no immobilise. AVs that are still don’t punch you in the face (unless you like that sort of thing!)

According to Mids the skill also does +62.5% recharge, which is pretty huge, but could be higher.

Really it’s worth comparing web grenade to other tier 1 single target debuffs from buff/debuff sets, and remembering web grenade has only a 4s recharge.

[Chance Jackson]

2 minutes ago, tidge said:

This assumes that the Henchmen are not within range of the AV's attacks.

The way i play; I immobilize AVs & i situate my Bots outside of Melee range, I provoke to take aggro & drop Poison Trap to crater AV's Regen, I continue to Spam Immobs, Provoke, Poison Traps, & the Veteran, Fighting Pool & Temp attacks I have until victorious

[ImpousVileTerror]

If anything, I think it would be best to double-down on Web Grenade's strengths as a -Recharge Debuff.  While finicky and introducing potential breakage, I think it would be nice if Web Grenade could be granted a special stacking mechanic for the -Recharge in PvE (because such a mechanic would be devastating in PvP, and I don't want to muck around with that).

 

Essentially, code Web Grenade to operate exactly as-is with the first application (using Defenders' numbers as an example).

-62.5% Recharge Debuff.

 

Because doing a full Stack would just be ridiculous, I propose splitting the Recharge Debuff and stacking only part of it.

Let's say . . . roughly one third?  
First application to a target would be -62.5%

Then -82.5%

Then -102.5%

et cetera.

Up to -162.5% at maximum applications (and that's assuming the Defender doesn't let up, and is just constantly casting the Web Grenade to the virtual exclusion of anything else).

I don't think that's too overpowered for a Defender.

 

Other Archetypes could be only one fourth stacking potential.  So, for a Mastermind:

50%
62%
74%

et cetera

120% max (again, just laying down nothing but Web Grenades to obtain this value).

 

I see this as an effective way to bring up the potential usefulness of Web Grenade, particularly against heavy targets like Archvillains, without completely redesigning its function or purpose.

[Peacemoon]

4 minutes ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

If anything, I think it would be best to double-down on Web Grenade's strengths as a -Recharge Debuff.  While finicky and introducing potential breakage, I think it would be nice if Web Grenade could be granted a special stacking mechanic for the -Recharge in PvE (because such a mechanic would be devastating in PvP, and I don't want to muck around with that).

 

Essentially, code Web Grenade to operate exactly as-is with the first application (using Defenders' numbers as an example).

-62.5% Recharge Debuff.

 

Because doing a full Stack would just be ridiculous, I propose splitting the Recharge Debuff and stacking only part of it.

Let's say . . . roughly one third?  
First application to a target would be -62.5%

Then -82.5%

Then -102.5%

et cetera.

Up to -162.5% at maximum applications (and that's assuming the Defender doesn't let up, and is just constantly casting the Web Grenade to the virtual exclusion of anything else).

I don't think that's too overpowered for a Defender.

 

Other Archetypes could be only one fourth stacking potential.  So, for a Mastermind:

50%
62%
74%

et cetera

120% max (again, just laying down nothing but Web Grenades to obtain this value).

 

I see this as an effective way to bring up the potential usefulness of Web Grenade, particularly against heavy targets like Archvillains, without completely redesigning its function or purpose.

I think the cap for recharge debuffs is -75% or something similar. I remember because I was testing with Lingering Radiation and power analyser, and it takes +2s for it to dip below capped debuff. Unless I was mistaken and reading it wrong. To go higher than the cap is just to keep it effective verses higher level mobs.

[ImpousVileTerror]

Dangnabbit.  Looks like that's the case.

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Recharge_Rate

 

Ok, so, seems that -75% Recharge is actually quite huge.

All the same, Archvillains and +Level_Con enemies do reduce the effectiveness of -Recharge Debuffs ( https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Purple_Patch ), so my idea would at least make them more competitive against higher-level content.  Might still be worth it there.

[Peacemoon]

4 minutes ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

Dangnabbit.  Looks like that's the case.

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Recharge_Rate

 

Ok, so, seems that -75% Recharge is actually quite huge.

All the same, Archvillains and +Level_Con enemies do reduce the effectiveness of -Recharge Debuffs ( https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Purple_Patch ), so my idea would at least make them more competitive against higher-level content.  Might still be worth it there.

It’s why I love psychic scream, it does -62% recharge in a cone... underrated 😉

 

I think with web grenade you could probably add -defence just to give the debuff side a bit more umph. I do quite like -defence because it would help at low levels when accuracy isn’t always great, and sort of fits the theme of entrapment and easy to hit.

It could also have an innate accuracy bonus. 
 

 

[CaptExpendable]

I don't have numbers available to me so I could be suggesting the impossible, but how's this for a possible modification for Triage Beacon? Instead of making it mobile, increase the +Regen by a good amount, maybe reduce its recharge time, but inversely reduce its duration? When you're getting swarmed it could make for a good last-ditch effort to stay alive, but you'd better be done with the mob by the time it expires or you're next.

[Strawberry]

6 hours ago, Primantis said:

 

I could have sworn at some point one of them was called "Poison Gas Trap".. I even remember using the acronym "PGT" for it..
 

That's actually the Traps-name version that was sort of given to "Poison Trap" by the forums back on Live from this description of the power...
 

Quote

You can build a Poison Gas Trap on the ground. Any foes that pass near the Poison Trap will cause it to detonate and release its toxic vapors.

That's part of the description of the Traps version of the power as opposed to...
 

Quote

You can build a Poison Trap on the ground. Any foes that pass near the Poison Trap will cause it to detonate and release its toxic vapors.

Versus part of the description of the Poison version of the power.

 

Granted, I think most people reading this know, but both powers are extremely different. It is really that silly and why I encourage an official name change even though I think most returning players keen on the sets know enough to not be confused. Would help new players or players new to either power-set.

[arcane]

I don’t feel I can adequately reflect on Traps because my only 50 trapper was doomed from the start by my stupid decision to make it a Traps/Assault Rifle. 

[Zepp]

2 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

I don’t feel I can adequately reflect on Traps because my only 50 trapper was doomed from the start by my stupid decision to make it a Traps/Assault Rifle. 

I quite enjoy my Traps/Assault Rifle Fender...

[seresibyl3]

Traps can get the stats it needs quite easily thanks to the far-following drone. Like, really easily. 

 

However, that doesn't immediately bandaid the set... 

 

The set suffers from having cool sets based around... well, setting up a trap... in a game where we push forward, not pull backwards (anymore)… that's kinda the first thing to look at. The easiest thing to do is to immediately look at the recharge o things...

 

Caltrops - 45s

Triage - 200s

Mortar- 90s

Poison Trap - 90

Seeker - 90

Trip mine - 20s

Time Bomb-360s

 

These are just obscenely long even with recharge. Triage has no purpose right to be a 200s base recharge... like, 300% regen is nice and all when slotted.. but not THAT nice. I'd even suggest making Triage a little beacon pet that will periodically grant a short-duration Regeneration/Recovery aura, like those crystals in devouring earth. 

 

 

 

Triage aside, the 3 that really bug me with their recharge are Mortar, Poison Trap, and Seeker drones -- these are kinda the "core" of Traps (IMO) and your core with 160%~ recharge are all around 30 second cooldowns. 

Maybe 60s base (I'd even wager 45s is fine) would make for a more engaging set... 

 

Outside of that -- the debuffing aspects, like poison, are fine. It does it in its own cute little way... it just needs to be able to do it more often.  I think FFG should have a tether where it teleports if it gets too far away, though...  

 

And while I'm okay with Seeker drones - it's SO weird that these have a long cooldown just to blow up and be gone for 90s (again with the cooldowns). I think these should do their thing but not kill themselves.. and just give them a cooldown in between their "blow up"... so they're not one and done, but maybe (with a 90s base cooldown) give them like a 15second reuse on it.

 

Trip mine and Time Bomb just need some major fixes...

1. Why do they do the same thing "damage" 

2. Why do they do that in such a non cool way....  

Maybe....

Give them a cast range (60y?) where you throw the mine, lol rather than place it... 

I think trip mine maybe should go off multiple times with a small delay so that if enemies keep walking into it, it blows up again, maybe for less damage each time (100%., 50%, 25%).

 

Time Bomb... not the right game for this, but let's cottage it in... Time delayed nuke. Sure, that makes... sense... anyways, I think these things should at least do something else... like -Def.

Edited June 22, 2020 by seresibyl3

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

I quite enjoy my Traps/Assault Rifle Fender...

It’s all very fun until you examine the numbers 😕

[Peacemoon]

3 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

It’s all very fun until you examine the numbers 😕

I like /AR on my defender. Snipe does high damage and Full Auto is up every 15s. Stick 3 procs in it and Defender ATOs and it’s golden 

[seresibyl3]

9 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

I like /AR on my defender. Snipe does high damage and Full Auto is up every 15s. Stick 3 procs in it and Defender ATOs and it’s golden 

I think they just need to make Full Auto do its damage in half the time... T_T

[Peacemoon]

20 minutes ago, seresibyl3 said:

I think they just need to make Full Auto do its damage in half the time... T_T

Sacrilege!! It should do triple the damage and take 3 times as long! 😛

[DoctorDitko]

Time Bomb should just go. It's a waste of space and time.

 

As far as Web Grenade, any chance it could be changed to be like the /Devices version, Toxic Web Grenade? It does a small but enhanceable amount of DoT while it immobilizes.

 

Seconded on the idea of making Triage Beacon follow you.

Edited June 22, 2020 by DoctorDitko

[Peacemoon]

11 minutes ago, DoctorDitko said:

Time Bomb should just go. It's a waste of space and time.

 

As far as Web Grenade, any chance it could be changed to be like the /Devices version, Toxic Web Grenade? It does a small but enhanceable amount of DoT while it immobilizes.

 

Seconded on the idea of making Triage Beacon follow you.

What about making the beacon behave like Faraday Cage? So you can keep moving it... as the team moves..

[Zeraphia]

My only real complaint about this set is the fact that "Traps" sounds so control-oriented that IMO it should've been implemented as a control set for a natural/technology theme alongside the support set!

[Yomo Kimyata]

I hate power creep (not you @Powercreep), but I can see that Traps could use a little help, although not very much.  The great powers are great, the ok powers are ok but not amazing, the useless powers are skippable.  Are four great powers enough for a set?  Dunno.

 

The big four:  Caltrops, Acid Mortar, FFG, Poison Trap.  All great powers on their own and better together.  I would not change anything about them.  Not recharge, not strength, not placing or following.  They are great, and I see no need to gild the lily.

 

The ok four:  Web Grenade, Triage Beacon, Seeker Drones, Trip Mine.  They are all acceptable as is, but I would not detest very slight changes.  WG shines with AV/EB/bosses, but I could see putting in another enhanceable IO set like slight ranged damage for proc use.  Triage Beacon would benefit from an initial boost in healing, like maybe a med green insp worth.  I think making it mobile is way overkill.  Seeker Drones would be more useful if (and maybe you can, I don’t know!) you could instantly send them at a specific target like Trick Arrow.  Trip mine is good and fun but skippable and little use on Zerg teams.

 

The useless two:  Time Bomb and Detonation.  I’d welcome any changes, but for now I skip them.

 

I’ve got five or six Traps alts, which makes it my most popular buff/rebuff set.  Closely followed by Poison and Trick Arrow, which I am sure we will see addressed very very soon.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Yomo Kimyata
Spulling

[JayboH]

I'll just spit out my list as I've talked about this a number of times before:

 

1.  Triage Beacon (and Spirit Tree) should be limited to one activation at a time and have a vastly shorter cooldown.  Does not need to be a toggle - keep it as a droppable object but make the old one vanish and lower the cooldown by a lot. 

 

2.  Keep Trip Mine but get rid of Time Bomb/Detonator - there is no reason to have both of these and I would vastly prefer something like Gun Drone or some kind of toggle for the tier 9.  I believe there is a whole thread discussing the mess that is Detonator specifically but if damage is a balance factor via the tier 9 for the whole set, you could always make the tier 1 a Toxic Web Grenade like Devices, which could help others with their problem with it.

 

I think the rest is fine.  I do not want Triage or Acid to be mobile.  Keep them as-is with the aforementioned changes.

Edited June 23, 2020 by JayboH

[JayboH]

3 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

My only real complaint about this set is the fact that "Traps" sounds so control-oriented that IMO it should've been implemented as a control set for a natural/technology theme alongside the support set!

Pretty sure several people for a number of years have wanted a Device Control set for thematic reasons, but that's probably another topic entirely

[ImpousVileTerror]

Definitely another topic, but it's such a huge WANT that . . . yeah.  Gonna echo that again here:  A Traps'y or Devices'ish Control Set would be absolutely stellar to have!

 

But also so I remain on topic for this week's discussion . . . 

Is there anyone opposed to nuking Time Bomb and starting over fresh with an entirely new Power there?

Is there -any- saving Detonator?  It's a cool concept, but it's just so finicky, fiddly, and weak . . . do we care if it gets written off and replaced too?