Villain SSA 1: Allistor - Was the end *really* needed?

[Greycat]

So. I like running the first SSA. It's quick, on either side, nets a nice number of merits, any character can do it. There are differences between the hero and villain sides, though.

Mission 1 - you can get away with no combat at all redside. Blue, you have to fight the mage. You get the choice.

Mission 2 - PPD and Igneous, but generally it's all window dressing. Three clicks and a quick fight. So far so good.

Mission 3 -

Heroside, you fight Lemkin with some of Synapse's powers, two Igneous minions. Echidna and two random COT (at base settings, solo.) Not that hard.

Villainside, you *get* Synapse's powers, fight Lemkin, then fight five waves of heroes/longbow/heroes. Which, ok, fair, you didn't have to fight in the first mission at all.

 

Both sides can be done (each) in 7-12 minutes, if you rush through it. So what am I complaining about?

 

You are capped at level 20. You may be lower level if you're not 20+. Which for the missions themselves... no problem. But in kind of a d*ck "devs hate villains" move, at the end of the villain arc, if you don't exit *immediately,* a 35-50 Phalanx comes in to wipe you out. Nothing similar happens heroside, of course.

 

How did I find this out? Ended the mission, got the reward, started answering a question I noticed in help, got a boulder and a few blasts to the side that insta-killed me. Now, no, debt's not a big deal, and fortunately I wasn't doing a "hardcore - death = delete" type character, but this is frankly unnecessary. It doesn't move the story forward, it doesn't add to it, it's not a challenge you can stick around to fight (remember, *you are, at most, level 20,* and they're a team of 35-50 AVs.) It's not fun, and it's not funny. A popup saying "Better get out of here, the phalanx is on the way and they're pissed" would be enough.

 

Basically... can we just get rid of this post-mission middle finger?

[Apparition]

That reminds me of the one mission from Vanessa DeVore in First Ward, where you can encounter a level 40 Marauder in your 20s.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Apparition

[FoulVileTerror]

There's also a mission from Neuron where you face a level 40ish Anti-Matter at level 15 if you don't leave the mission before the timer is up.

 

I plan, should I ever get around to it, to start that mission with a dedicated character, and then hold on to the mission until I level up to 40ish myself . . . just to see what happens, if anything, when Anti-Matter is defeated.

[SurfD]

There's also the praetorian mission where you break into Coles Tower to steal an object as part of the FirstWard/NightWard arc, and near the end of the mission a pissed as hell Marauder comes looking for you.  I never stuck around to see what level he was, but I know both (or is it 3 now) times I did that mission he hits you with a boulder throw attack that immediately floors you to 1 HP (likely scripted).  Always wondered if it is possible to do that mission and actually defeat him.

[Monos King]

I think that's kind of awesome.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

See to me this is great writing. Its important because it highlights why the villains are not ruling more then the rogue isles.  Yes it is heavy handed game mastering. And sometimes that is what is needed for the sake of the over all narrative.

 

When you go red, no matter how hard you try, you will never be the victor in the end for the sake of the heroic spirit of the game setting.

[Leo_G]

12 hours ago, Greycat said:

It's not fun, and it's not funny. A popup saying "Better get out of here, the phalanx is on the way and they're pissed" would be enough.

 

Basically... can we just get rid of this post-mission middle finger?

You hear all the time about "show don't tell". Seems more interesting in this circumstances. 

 

So why is telling better than showing here? Or better yet, both. 

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

See to me this is great writing.

It is not anything close to "great writing."  It adds nothing to the specific story or the overall narrative. If you're needing a cold shower because "yay, the villain lost," well, they do *anyway* in this arc if you know it at *all* - the obelisk shatters.

 

Having multiple mobs show up that you have zero chance of doing anything against for an insta-kill is just not good design. Heroside, you can stick around and clean up any igneous you left behind if you want to. Villainside, no, you can't. As I said, it's nothing but a big middle finger to the player.

 

Also, it doesn't sound like you've ever played redside to the end. And stop making assumptions about villain motivations.

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Greycat

[Patti]

This is the sort of thing which would be nice as an option.

"Unwinnable Ambushes?"

- "Enabled."

->"NO!"

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

18 hours ago, Greycat said:

It is not anything close to "great writing."  It adds nothing to the specific story or the overall narrative. If you're needing a cold shower because "yay, the villain lost," well, they do *anyway* in this arc if you know it at *all* - the obelisk shatters.

 

Having multiple mobs show up that you have zero chance of doing anything against for an insta-kill is just not good design. Heroside, you can stick around and clean up any igneous you left behind if you want to. Villainside, no, you can't. As I said, it's nothing but a big middle finger to the player.

 

Also, it doesn't sound like you've ever played redside to the end. And stop making assumptions about villain motivations.

 

Oh Ive capped a red sider or two in my time, but yeah sure beena  long damn time for sure. And I dont need to make assumptiosn about villainous scum, Im a psychc, I know their motivations better then they do;)

 

And my point is that villains need that middle finger thrown at them, players of red siders should understand that they are on the wrong side, that its a hopeless side to stick with, and they need to atone and go blue. Or at least be a vigilante that lives in the isles to defend its citizens who are truly in need of some hero help.

 

You would only have a point if the insta kill actually had a meaningful level of negative impact, but debt is so trivial that just cant be enough of of a reason imo. I as a DM in PnP games, am a big fan of putting players, especially of certain classes and alignments into no win heroic sacrifice situations to really test the players commitment to role playing something like a paladin, or tempting the ignoble in the group to turn on the others via greed, envy, and anger.

 

Being a killer GM isnt inherently considered a bad thing you know that right? In fact in the old days of RPGing it was the goal, to be truly impartial, but also truly brutal and merciless, to not focus on balance or fairness, but on making sure those who did do heroic things felt heroic, and those who did foolish things felt really foolish. Hell we should be lucky CoH doesnt use traps like a good RPG would, that would straight up kill you for blundering into them, that actually remains one of the most beloved and favored reasons by MMO gamers to go dabble on DDO from time to time. because there the end bosses are often not even close to the most deadly thing in the mish, its usually the traps that unless you know the content, and have a rogue along, are going to die and get rezzed a lot getting through the myriad ways to be insta killed by inanimate objects.

 

The simple fact is the entire argument here is one based off of an appeal to emotion over an emotional reaction to something inconsequential that is being called unfair. Appeals to emotion are by the rules of any debate contest an instant loss.

 

Can you give any actual mechanical, game balance reason, that this event causes a genuine and unjust imbalance against red side players? Or is it just an argh me not want to be reminded Im not even as the red sider the protagonist of my story, just an antagonist in some NPCs story! Does it somehow prevent them from earning the end reward for the arc? does it cause some kind of bug even rarely? Can it cause any kind of change to your character against your will?

 

Its just a story moment, one that at worst can make a moody player grumble, and I suspect gives plenty a chuckle when it happens to them.

[Greycat]

Edit:

- BB thinks TPKing is "good storytelling" and "good RP."

- Heavy handed and pushes opinion on sides being the "right" or "wrong" one to play.

 

Yep. Know just how to consider his opinion now (reinforced by multiple wordy posts on other subjects.) Which is "not at all."

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Greycat

[Vanden]

Eh, I like it. It's flavor.

 

Just spawn a 100% debt protection thingy alongside the Phalanx and it's fine, assuming that's not already there.

[Giovanni Valia]

6 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

And my point is that villains need that middle finger thrown at them, players of red siders should understand that they are on the wrong side, that its a hopeless side to stick with, and they need to atone and go blue...

Big yikes. Where to even begin there...

[FoulVileTerror]

Let's not forget the part about suggesting feedback for improvement to this game being referenced as part of a "contest" and "debate."

Seems rather counter-productive to me, all things considered.

[Apparition]

Honestly, I'd probably quit the game if I had to play blue side.  It's just so dull and boring compared to red side.

[Likara]

"Bentley" (guy really needs to stop using characters that aren't his, and I really wish HC wouldn't let him) never has anything of value to say. Just put him on ignore already, he's not worth the time or effort. Every post he makes is full of self-important elitism and a lot of, honestly, the most mind-boggling garbage I've ever read. Put him on ignore and save your sanity.

[Razor Cure]

On 8/8/2020 at 12:29 PM, Greycat said:

How did I find this out? Ended the mission, got the reward, started answering a question I noticed in help, got a boulder and a few blasts to the side that insta-killed me. Now, no, debt's not a big deal, and fortunately I wasn't doing a "hardcore - death = delete" type character, but this is frankly unnecessary. It doesn't move the story forward, it doesn't add to it, it's not a challenge you can stick around to fight (remember, *you are, at most, level 20,* and they're a team of 35-50 AVs.) It's not fun, and it's not funny. A popup saying "Better get out of here, the phalanx is on the way and they're pissed" would be enough.

Super weird, I only found out about this ending a few days ago too. With the same circumstances..went afk, came back Dead and with Statesman standing over me. I did think it was cool, but as you said..a warning would have been nice!

 

13 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

they are on the wrong side

According to you. I started the game on CoV (when they were seperate games). To me, the red side is always gonna be right (and with better zones, and far less shitty story arcs).

[Lines]

I think it gives you a warning in chat, but that's easy to miss.

 

I kinda like the event. It's practically harmless and signals that you're punching above your weight at level 20.

 

< also a redsider. Misunderstood and proud!

Edited August 10, 2020 by Lines

[Razor Cure]

Also, talking about redside apparently not the 'right' side..the last few parts of SigArc#1, played from BOTH sides clearly have way more villain help than heroic. The last mission actually has the Patrons on the moonbase with you, and then just LR alone. Pretty sure I didn't see any heroes making the trip up to help save the world (which is super odd, since apparently hero side is so in the right), aside from Penny and her force field thingy.