Game Balance & The Endgame

[Wavicle]

The main thing that prevents Support ATs from soloing as well as everyone else is the fact that using Support and CC powers takes time, time during which you are not attacking. MMs and some Controllers and Doms suffer less from this than others. But it’s generally true across many sets.

[Tsuko]

3 hours ago, Linea said:

[...] Tank are two that are right on that line, with kills taking up to an hour ... and you have to kill (or almost kill) that %!@#$^% as many as 6 times ... that's up to 6 hours, not worth it.

With all due respects, it's not the experience i have with tankers 🙂

[Haijinx]

7 hours ago, Tsuko said:

With all due respects, it's not the experience i have with tankers 🙂

Yeah.  Sounds like a dated take.

 

People really should wander over to the tanker forums and read the tank gods.

 

[Haijinx]

11 hours ago, Linea said:

I've soloed a +4x8 ITF with (almost) everything except a petless mm, (but with all the toys, temps, and inspirations).  ...  With galacticly wide varying degrees of difficulty, some combinations are simply not at all worth ever trying again, it was entirely too difficult.  Emp/ and Tank are two that are right on that line, with kills taking up to an hour ... and you have to kill (or almost kill) that %!@#$^% as many as 6 times ... that's up to 6 hours, not worth it.

 

In the end, the game balance really boils down to the AT modifiers, and then in-AT set balance, and issues with IOs.

The former AT-Modifiers are well balanced, and WAI overall.  The latter is totally whack, and always has been.  Example, the best blast set (multiplied by IOs) can do 3.5x more damage than the worst blast set (also multiplied by IOs).  That discrepancy gets even worse if the latter (worst) set does not have IOs nor incarnates or is poorly built.  And that's the kind of thing we typically see.  It's not Defender vs Corruptor, it's a T4 Corruptor built for damage being compared to a SO defender built for support.   OF COURSE it's going to be a whack comparison.   But build that defender as a T4 Offender, and it might out perform the Corruptor (when I did this comparison fairly and equally with mirror builds, they came out even with the defender builds a bit easier to build and a bit more flexible).

They are soloing ITF with buffed enemies at +4×8. In 2.5 hours with no defeats.

[Haijinx]

Also no temp powers, no outside buffs, no inspirations.

[Tsuko]

12 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Also no temp powers, no outside buffs, no inspirations.

you forgot player debuffed but only one did it 😄

[Linea]

Tanks that can crank out 250+ dps in order to take out a +4 AV solo are not "average" tanks.  I've done it, but it's not something I'd recommend to the average player, or even above average player.  Tanks that can do that are probably Top 5% or better.

 

I'm aware they are using the extra super difficulty settings only available in TFs, that is why I added "(but with all the toys, temps, and inspirations)".  With the toys it's almost anything, without the toys and no deaths, it's a much much smaller subset.  I wish there was more content like this, but without the AVs, as the dps-check is the most annoying aspect of this kind of thing.

[Epoch Paradox]

11 hours ago, Linea said:

Tanks that can crank out 250+ dps in order to take out a +4 AV solo are not "average" tanks.  I've done it, but it's not something I'd recommend to the average player, or even above average player.  Tanks that can do that are probably Top 5% or better.

 

I'm aware they are using the extra super difficulty settings only available in TFs, that is why I added "(but with all the toys, temps, and inspirations)".  With the toys it's almost anything, without the toys and no deaths, it's a much much smaller subset.  I wish there was more content like this, but without the AVs, as the dps-check is the most annoying aspect of this kind of thing.

I've often wondered what it would be like if support characters could buff self as well as others (think ID, SB, Fortitude, Frostworks, shields and so on). Might that be what everyone would play then? I can't seriously suggest that, but I do think it would be both logical and... very fun.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Epoch Paradox

[Wavicle]

10 minutes ago, Epoch Paradox said:

I've often wondered what it would be like if support characters could buff self as well as others (think ID, SB, Fortitude, Frostworks, shields and so on). Might that be what everyone would play then? I can't seriously suggest that, but I do think it would be both logical and... very fun.

It would work well for some sets and not so much for others and be a nightmare to balance this far into the games life. If someone is making a CoH 2 hopefully they’ll include this feature from the get go.

[Epoch Paradox]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

It would work well for some sets and not so much for others and be a nightmare to balance this far into the games life. If someone is making a CoH 2 hopefully they’ll include this feature from the get go.

Agreed that some sets would benefit more than others and then again, can we say that the ATs/sets are balanced now? Electrical affinity uses chain effects that can come back to the caster, empathy is mixed between self affecting and teammate only.... It would change some things for sure, but even though I'm not actually vying for this, I'm also not convinced it would "break the game".

[Soyuz]

7 hours ago, Epoch Paradox said:

Agreed that some sets would benefit more than others and then again, can we say that the ATs/sets are balanced now? Electrical affinity uses chain effects that can come back to the caster, empathy is mixed between self affecting and teammate only.... It would change some things for sure, but even though I'm not actually vying for this, I'm also not convinced it would "break the game".

If IO's, Epics and Incarnates haven't broken it yet, then allowing FF and similar sets to self-buff certainly won't. If IO's, Epics and incarnates have broken it, then what does it matter? Personally I think the game broke a long time ago, but those other changes are not going to be rolled back.

 

The only exception I think is Masterminds. They're already pretty tanky and have a permanent team with them, so the ally-only nature of certain sets actually works pretty well for them.

[Epoch Paradox]

2 hours ago, Soyuz said:

If IO's, Epics and Incarnates haven't broken it yet, then allowing FF and similar sets to self-buff certainly won't. If IO's, Epics and incarnates have broken it, then what does it matter? Personally I think the game broke a long time ago, but those other changes are not going to be rolled back.

 

The only exception I think is Masterminds. They're already pretty tanky and have a permanent team with them, so the ally-only nature of certain sets actually works pretty well for them.

What does broke mean to you? Not fun anymore? Or maybe just that comparing gameplay today with issue 5, for example is extremely different?
Good point on MMs, though, I don’t use them it seems to make sense.

 

 

[Tsuko]

On 11/11/2020 at 5:33 PM, Linea said:

Tanks that can crank out 250+ dps in order to take out a +4 AV solo are not "average" tanks.  I've done it, but it's not something I'd recommend to the average player, or even above average player.  Tanks that can do that are probably Top 5% or better.

 

I'm aware they are using the extra super difficulty settings only available in TFs, that is why I added "(but with all the toys, temps, and inspirations)".  With the toys it's almost anything, without the toys and no deaths, it's a much much smaller subset.  I wish there was more content like this, but without the AVs, as the dps-check is the most annoying aspect of this kind of thing.

The Worst "extra difficulty" setup is not in TF options : it's by far No Incarnates (added to solo MOITF and no temp powers, enemy debuff, no inspi and so on) : i spent more than a week trying with several AT and builds of Tankers, Scrappers and Dominators. The best i had was going to the end of the 3rd Mission (of ITF) with my Dark / Psi Dominator (where Romulus one shot'd me :D)

Edited November 13, 2020 by Tsuko

[Purrfekshawn]

On 11/10/2020 at 5:54 AM, Werner said:

I've surely missed some examples, particularly as I'm pulling only from a couple of threads, but for solo +4x8 MoITF, enemies buffed, no temps, no insps, no deaths, I know of five people having done it, using two Scrappers, one Brute, and seven Tankers. Without enemies buffed, I know more people have done it, and with a wider variety of archetypes.

Now 6-th are Extreamly, Amazingly Cute Us. We just done it yey, heil to Us n.n!!!

lTF: solo bosses, solo av, +4 level, team of 8 players.

No defeats allowed, no inspirations allowed, no temporary powers allowed, enemies are buffed:

We did it on DaGrateKrushmor the Nuclear Cyborg toon, almost no power dropping, everything is thematic & left as it is, with exception of Teleport. It was taken in order to untether 4-th Screen Boss from Nictus Essence adds (fly next to very cutscene border, teleport to the VERY BOSS before cutscene, see cutscene (character VFX will play between nictus & romulus during cutscene or so), then immediately use some PBAoE power. That will untether boss from Nictus adds).

 

 

[Werner]

3 hours ago, Purrfekshawn said:

lTF: solo bosses, solo av, +4 level, team of 8 players.

No defeats allowed, no inspirations allowed, no temporary powers allowed, enemies are buffed:

Awesome! Congratulations!

[Werner]

On 11/10/2020 at 6:14 PM, Haijinx said:

They are soloing ITF with buffed enemies at +4×8. In 2.5 hours with no defeats.

And no temps no insps. Fastest time looks like 1:29:55 by @Tsuko's Rad/SS Tanker. @nihilii got 1:31:37 on an Invuln/DB Tanker. I was off the pace at 1:36:36 (unposted) on my Shield/MA Tanker doing 334 DPS. But I also agree that...

On 11/11/2020 at 8:33 AM, Linea said:

Tanks that can crank out 250+ dps in order to take out a +4 AV solo are not "average" tanks.

 

[Soyuz]

20 hours ago, Epoch Paradox said:

What does broke mean to you? Not fun anymore? Or maybe just that comparing gameplay today with issue 5, for example is extremely different?

If the game wasn't fun, I wouldn't be playing it.

 

My personal opionion is that any hope of creating even a rough semblance of balance between AT's and even powersets within AT's went out of the window years ago. The problem is that there are too many variables to take into account now. You don't just have to understand the powerset, you have to understand the way it interacts with every possible pool power, IO set or unique, epic pool or incarnate ability.

 

When it comes to resistance and defence, for instance, the maths behind CoH offers accelerating returns on investment. For example, if you have no damage resistance to start with, then to double your survival time in combat requires 50% resistance (it's a bit more complex than that because of health regen, but we can ignore that for the purposes of discussion). If you already have 50% resistance though, to double your survival time again only costs you another 25%. To double it again from there, 12.5%. To double it again after that, 6.25%.

 

Each %age point of resistance adds more survivability than the one before it.

 

Originally, this was controlled for by the fact that you could only run one defensive toggle at a time. Passives within sets didn't overlap, and pool powers offered no passive or click defences, so the maximum you could get in any individual area of +Def or +DamRes was one passive plus one toggle.

 

When they allowed you to run all your toggles at once (necessary because tanks need mez protection and the devs seem to have misunderstood their own meta), this created problems (100%+ smash/lethal resist), which led to nerfs. Caps were introduced, resist and defence powers were nerfed across the board, pool defences stopped being of much use to the squishier AT's they were intended for and Stamina started to be a must-have in most builds (except regen. Nerf regen etc...).

 

That was just the effect of being able to stack pool powers with primary/secondary defences. Layer IO's on top and things get much more complex. Add in Epics and Incarnates and things get more complex again - probably by orders of magnitude.

 

Never mind Issue 5, the game wasn't balanced at launch and any possibility of reining it in probably disappeared with Issue 3. I have no illusions about that genie ever going back into its bottle either - IO's, Epics, Incarnates and stacking toggles are here to stay. I don't think the player base would have it any other way (even if I secretly yearn for an I3-style server, but I think that's just me).

 

In other words, game balance is broken and likely to stay that way.

 

Given that we are so far away from the original vision for the AT's, and given that many are so much more powerful than they were originally, does it really matter if we convert most ally-only buffs into PBAOE's?

 

I think probably not.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Soyuz
Typos

[Purrfekshawn]

8 hours ago, Werner said:

Awesome! Congratulations!

My one could be faster, but l had to reset final mission once because Imperious fell over. Generally to take out AV's l had to bring Hero adds (Daedalus/Imperious) to the very end, and then babysit them, as they tend to fall over in the worst moment. They deal great DPS though, and able to burn through AV regeneration, but if they fall over this may be as good as bust.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Purrfekshawn

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 11/11/2020 at 10:33 AM, Linea said:

Tanks that can crank out 250+ dps in order to take out a +4 AV solo are not "average" tanks.

I'm reminded of a statement I'm no doubt paraphrasing: All these things I do you can do and more.

[Kraqule]

My Proposal for an END-GAME

The end game has always been an issue in CoX with the apparent end game in place since CoV was released. The premise is very simple :
 

1. Arrest Warrants are issued for Villain's (Super Group Team Leaders)
2. Bounty's are placed on hero's (Supergroup team leaders) 

These Arrest Warrant's & Bounty's are issued Monday after  Sunday's formation where the Super group builds as many 24 character Leagues as possible in each tier. Each League can only include 1 character per account. (Initially PvE would be the first option for release as PvP rewards and mechanics would take longer to tweak for equitable play.)

There should be level tiers 10-20, 21-35, 36-49, 50 IO's, 50 open.

The Mission itself would detail the League targeted with arrest bio's for the league you are facing and the 3 missions that need to be completed so your invading group can deliver and use the portal code to access the Villain/Hero Superbase.

EDIT - Once you have a Warrant you can form a league with any players to gain arrest & bounty points... The only restriction is you gain no points unless you have that warrant/bounty. --/EDIT

1. Mission 1 -- Capture and control 3 points simultaneously. To gain access to the capitol building or Tangle. The 3 points focus on a diverse set of skills needed. The assault team primarily tanks, and healers will be due for close combat enemies with non-melee attacks doing little to no damage because of shielding as they fight their way into the lobby's of the buildings through the back door. The ranged team will be responsible for taking out drones dispatched to the buildings. Every drone that gets in will increase the melee assault team's difficulty as these drones are almost impervious to damage once inside. The third team will need to consist of controllers and dominators that take out the power sources One under Atlas and one under the Recluses statue out front in front of the Tangle. The hold durations will accumulate to stop the power generation. This team will need to hold the room until the assault team is successful.
2. Mission 2 -- Battle for the Control room. All out battles of in the corridors of various player character heroes and villains in the halls of the Tangle and Capitol buildings to get to the transport temporal portal control rooms. Upon success the league will continue on to the superbase.
3. Mission 3 invasion and capture of the targets in their superbase. The defender will be able to choose spawn locations, defense armaments and technologies, and of course base design. It will be a 24 V 24 shoot em out the players will enjoy that includes all Archetypes.

 

The end game comes into being with 5 slots for tech, magic, mutation, natural and science based augmentations. Though there are 5 slots a player is permitted to build 7 devices so 2 can be swapped out at the players discretion These slots will require bounty/arrest points to be accumulated from PvE and eventually PvP bounty and arrest warrant missions. Characters will be allowed to battle every combination in their tier once to obtain the most points possible. NPC's will of course hold the least bounty points while player characters of higher levels will yield more points. These points will be accumulated to achieve 10 security levels that consist of 10 sublevels within. Each sublevel will be worth 1 point while the security level itself will be worth 3.

Security Levels:

Security Level Juliett 1 - 9,999 bounty/arrest points ( 3 Research Points rewarded)

1.  1,000 - 1 research point rewarded
2.  2,000 - 1 research point rewarded
3.  3,000 - 1 research point rewarded
4.  4,000 - 1 research point rewarded
5.  5,000 - 1 research point rewarded
6.  6,000 - 1 research point rewarded
7.  7,000 - 1 research point rewarded
8.  8,000 - 1 research point rewarded
9.  9,000 - 1 research point rewarded

Security Level India 10,000 ( 3 Research Points rewarded)

1.  12,000 - 1 research point rewarded
2.  14,000 - 1 research point rewarded
3.  16,000 - 1 research point rewarded
4.  18,000 - 1 research point rewarded
5.  20,000 - 1 research point rewarded
6.  22,000 - 1 research point rewarded
7.  24,000 - 1 research point rewarded
8.  26,000 - 1 research point rewarded
9.  28,000- 1 research point rewarded

Security Level Hotel 30,000 ( 3 Research Points rewarded)

1.  34,000 - 1 research point rewarded
2.  38,000 - 1 research point rewarded
3.  42,000 - 1 research point rewarded
4.  46,000 - 1 research point rewarded
5.  50,000 - 1 research point rewarded
6.  54,000 - 1 research point rewarded
7.  58,000 - 1 research point rewarded
8.  62,000 - 1 research point rewarded
9.  66,000 - 1 research point rewarded

Security Level Golf 70,000-149,999 ( 3 Research Points rewarded)

1.  78,000 - 1 research point rewarded
2.  86,000 - 1 research point rewarded
3.  94,000 - 1 research point rewarded
4.  102,000 - 1 research point rewarded
5.  110,000 - 1 research point rewarded
6.  118,000 - 1 research point rewarded
7.  126,000 - 1 research point rewarded
8.  134,000 - 1 research point rewarded
9.  142,000 - 1 research point rewarded

Security Level Golf 150,000- 309,999 ( 3 Research Points rewarded)

 

Example enhancement devices:

Bolster Defense

1. +1% defense - 1 research point >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of common salvage origin type + 50 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
2. +2% defense - 3 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common and 1 stack of uncommon salvage origin type + 100 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
3. +3% defense - 6 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common and 2 stacks of uncommon salvage origin type + 250 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
4. +4% defense - 10 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common and 2 stacks of uncommon salvage origin type + 375 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
5. +5% defense - 15 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common, 2 stacks of uncommon, and 1 stack of 5 rare salvage origin type + 500 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.

Rare Recipe & PvP Recipe drop rate increase

1. +2%  - 1 research point >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of common salvage origin type + 50 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
2. +4%  - 3 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common and 1 stack of uncommon salvage origin type + 100 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
3. +6%  - 6 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common and 2 stacks of uncommon salvage origin type + 250 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
4. +8%  - 10 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common and 2 stacks of uncommon salvage origin type + 375 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
5. +10%  - 15 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common, 2 stacks of uncommon, and 1 stack of 5 rare salvage origin type + 500 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.

Influence rate increase

1. +2%  - 1 research point >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of common salvage origin type + 50 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
2. +4%  - 3 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common and 1 stack of uncommon salvage origin type + 100 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
3. +6%  - 6 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common and 2 stacks of uncommon salvage origin type + 250 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
4. +8%  - 10 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common and 2 stacks of uncommon salvage origin type + 375 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
5. +10%  - 15 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common, 2 stacks of uncommon, and 1 stack of 5 rare salvage origin type + 500 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.

Defense Piecing % of damage that ignores defense

1. +1% defense - 1 research point >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of common salvage origin type + 50 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
2. +2% defense - 3 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common and 1 stack of uncommon salvage origin type + 100 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
3. +3% defense - 6 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common and 2 stacks of uncommon salvage origin type + 250 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
4. +4% defense - 10 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common and 2 stacks of uncommon salvage origin type + 375 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.
5. +5% defense - 15 research points >>> recipe >>> 2 stacks of 10 common, 2 stacks of uncommon, and 1 stack of 5 rare salvage origin type + 500 pieces generic research salvage bound to character from TF''s, Main Story arcs and Trials. The higher the difficulty the more generic salvage.

 

Summary

The great thing about basing the end-game around other players is that as the players increase their abilities so to does their opposition. The ability  claim the bounty only once per league will encourage heroes to convert to Villains as they will be able to fight more times claiming more points. (Example if there is 1 villain league and 3 hero leagues the villains can fight 3 times to each heroes once. To ensure this is not exploited if you change your alignment you will not be able to claim a bounty or arrest reward for 1 week. This will prevent people from playing both sides.)

The devices powers will be significant enough to make their Hero or Villain stronger but not enough to damage the content. 

 

This system provides 5 key elements:

1.  With the use of the tangle and Atlas Maps in combination with existing player characters and super hero bases development is quick and easy. Few graphics to be created. no new zones.
2.  By tying resources to all TF's and key story arcs with rewards for more difficulty missions will no longer be raced through and manipulated because as important as completing the TF is killing the mobs for research salvage will almost force players to play the TF's and missions as intended. This in no way will diminish the farmers role in the economy.
3.  The increased TF and Missions will create a stronger player community and thus a more certain future.
4.  Super groups will finally have their place in the game that the developers intended. SG's with active memberships and organized SG leaders will be sought out so the players can acquire the most research points possible.
5.  This end-game can have endless security levels and the ability for devices to be created at any thus engaging the player base in new adventures.

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Kraqule

[Doc_Scorpion]

7 hours ago, Kraqule said:

With the use of the tangle and Atlas Maps in combination with existing player characters and super hero bases development is quick and easy. Few graphics to be created. no new zones.

The problem is bases...  The OG dev team, with far greater resources, never could get base raids to work properly.  I suspect development of this features would be anything but quick and easy.

[Kraqule]

47 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

The problem is bases...  The OG dev team, with far greater resources, never could get base raids to work properly.  I suspect development of this features would be anything but quick and easy.

If this is still indeed true then you resort to the teams selecting one of a dozen existing maps to defend... My motto has always been to find ways around issues rather than let obstacles become barriers.

 

The obstacle few acknowledge is the resources it requires to build new content. Something that should be considered is the development of a non-profit fund for development where CoH fans could sponsor defined updates for the game. Different donation levels and projects could include a variety of in-game gifts for donating. It would also allow the devs to see with real dollars where the players want development. Those most invested in the game are the most likely source to find success.

The way I understand it is part of the agreement to operate the servers is that there be no for-profit fundraising but sponsorship of development projects would allow development time to be compensated and allow the developers to become more ambitious in regards to building new content. To keep the game viable long term the game needs the ability to be allowed to evolve.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Kraqule

[Apparition]

Because of the way SG bases developed after sunset, base raids are a dead end and never coming back from what I understand.  Also, your suggestion strongly encourages large supergroups (which I strongly dislike) and leaves small supergroups in the wind, and mandates PvP, (which I absolutely despise with a passion).  It would result in me leaving the game so fast your head would spin.

[Coyotedancer]

If I wanted non-optional PvP I'd go back to playing Aion. <_<

 

[Wavicle]

PVP is and has always been and will always be one of the least popular parts of this game. It makes absolutely no sense to make it incredibly important at the end.

 

Also, there’s already an endgame, it’s called the incarnate system. It may not be completely perfectly balanced, and it was never finished, but that is the end game.