Hey Devs, can you please some or all of this to HC?! :)

[Draeth Darkstar]

3 hours ago, Naomi said:

Sometimes doing it the preferred way just takes longer. I don't think mastermind pet customization is a closed book at all.

Awesome, perfect answer. Thank you.

 

I will continue to dream 😌

[golstat2003]

20 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So, without going into detail there is a certain, vocal population that takes things far too literally / set in stone even in the planning phases. In last year's suite of changes there were a number of things on the plate that eventually got pushed off before even finishing the rounds in the Alpha Stages behind closed doors... but those who saw those changes held onto them with all they could and were downright mad that they did not make it past the blueprints for this phase. 

 

Often times showing something too early, or to the wrong audience, can alter expectations radically.

Pretty much this.

[golstat2003]

13 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Thank you again for your insight, @Naomi.

 

I suppose my point is:  Do you -ever- hear the end of it, even now?

I've personally never worked on a project quite like this.  No commercial obligations, but also not entirely an original, personal hobby project.  There's a LOT about Homecoming which is uncharted territory, and I have personally hoped from the beginning that it would afford this community the opportunity to move away from old, harmful development models.  The hope that not only would Homecoming be a second chance for City of Heroes, but a chance to explore methods of de-industrialization of game development.

 

If the sentiment is that the gamer metaculture is still much too toxic to permit for a safe space to fail, I can't fault that.  There have definitely been years upon years of that attitude being intentionally cultivated as part of marketing ploys.  I suppose part of me wants to believe that this game's community would step up and try to combat that.   It's one of those things that I wanted to see from Homecoming's development back when we were asked about it in 2019.  My hope has been for the Devs to extend the initial olive branches, and then reinforce them through community efforts.

 

I don't want to assume anyone's lived experiences.  I hope that no one on the Homecoming Dev Team has had to suffer in their professional career, but with how far reaching things have been and continue to be, I suspect that you each at least know someone who has suffered or had their passion exploited.  Abuse thrives in hidden places.  And I'm not saying the Homecoming Team are being abusive by keeping things hidden.  But it is something we've been groomed to do by abusers.  The culture of "keep it secret, keep it safe" is one which has allowed for so many problems to take such deep roots, especially in the games industry.

 

So . . . magical imaginary theoretical situation:  If the community could self-reflect enough to maintain an emotionally safe space for the Devs to share their failures without the passionate players being bent out of shape, do you (or anyone) have any additional insights on how to move toward that?  

What would you like to see from the community to improve communication on our end?

 

(and not to totally subvert my own efforts here, but I would like to circle back to clarifying the core philosophies some day too.  But I figure we should focus on this other stuff for now.)

In the 30+ years of dealing with gaming communities, IT, etc, I will say you are being broadly, fantastically, overly optimistic.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Lots, and lots, and lots to reply to (and I'll try to find some time this week) . . . but, specifically to that last message:

 

It doesn't hurt to try.

Let's try.

[golstat2003]

3 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Lots, and lots, and lots to reply to (and I'll try to find some time this week) . . . but, specifically to that last message:

 

It doesn't hurt to try.

Let's try.

I say look at the last few posts from the devs and leave it at that. Key word here being: volunteers.

Edited February 24, 2021 by golstat2003

[Number Six]

On 2/22/2021 at 10:26 AM, TemporalVileTerror said:

The core philosophy.

This is a very difficult question to answer not because it doesn't have an answer but because it's such a huge question. We could write pages and pages on the topic and still feel like it's not a fully satisfying answer. As Naomi mentioned, we're also not a hive mind (FAR from it) and different people have different priorities even if that doesn't always show in the final product.

 

For myself, personally, the core philosophy is "try to continue the game in the spirit of the original Cryptic & Paragon developers as best as we can". I recognize that's a highly subjective statement and doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. So I'd break it down into a few key areas.

• Game balance wise, trying to keep the game relatively well balanced. That means no "I win" buttons, no AT or power combinations that eclipse everything else. That doesn't mean that there can't be variances so long as they're not extreme - it's not possible or desired for everything to be equal - but well designed characters should still be rewarded by feeling powerful. It means that the meta-game should be interesting and there should be build choices to make with tradeoffs for making them, and that there shouldn't be one answer that's always right.
  
  There are also traditions to be maintained, so while things like MOAR RECHARGE almost always being better would seem to violate that philosophy, it's also extremely unlikely that I'd endorse any attempt to change it.
   
• A high priority for me at least is to make sure that nobody logs in one day and is dismayed to find their character plays completely differently (principle of least astonishment). That means small incremental changes rather than sweeping remakes of entire systems, and preferring to add new things rather than fix something that isn't broken. When things are broken or systems do need sweeping changes, try to keep them familiar, intuitive, and true to the subjective 'feel' of the game. When we have internal discussions, I often like to play devil's advocate and demand a good reason for doing just about anything.
  
  I'm an old school wow player and I always dreaded expansion packs when the talent trees would be remade from scratch and sometimes entire game mechanics and character stats would be changed or removed. While this is a goal, the game does have to move forward and cannot stay frozen forever. The desire is to provide this for the vast majority - I'm painfully aware of cases already when some people feel that what I consider relatively minor changes completely ruin a character - but we sadly can't please everyone all the time.
   
• On the technical side, I place a high priority on making sure that the game continues to run on machines that people have been playing it with for years -- that's why we take steps to try to keep it running on old clunkers even though MS has long dropped support for their operating systems. Backwards compatibility is a Big Things for me and I always try to push for maximizing it.
  
  At the same time, I want a cleaner, future-proof framework and have been the driving force behind a lot of the modernization project: the 64-bit port, upgrade to using more modern tools (there's a sweet spot where XP cross builds are still possible), refactoring into new cross-platform libraries, and reorganizing the source tree to make it easier to navigate.

Those 3 big points - told from the perspective of someone who works mainly on engine code and backend server stuff - probably don't even scratch the surface of what you're asking. What about new powerset design, priorities for costume parts, story content, animation and mission maps? There's a ton of stuff I'd love to write a novel on but it still wouldn't feel finished, and there are other complicating factors as well that will sort themselves out in time. So for now I'm going to just keep doing what I'm doing and hunt for bugs to be fixed, create new toys to give to powers designers (hint: keep an eye on Singularity), and slowly clean up the code base while the content team gets to do the fun stuff.

[TemporalVileTerror]

It actually does scratch the surface, and I really appreciate you taking the time to post it, @Number Six.

Thank you.

[golstat2003]

15 minutes ago, Number Six said:

This is a very difficult question to answer not because it doesn't have an answer but because it's such a huge question. We could write pages and pages on the topic and still feel like it's not a fully satisfying answer. As Naomi mentioned, we're also not a hive mind (FAR from it) and different people have different priorities even if that doesn't always show in the final product.

 

For myself, personally, the core philosophy is "try to continue the game in the spirit of the original Cryptic & Paragon developers as best as we can". I recognize that's a highly subjective statement and doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. So I'd break it down into a few key areas.

• Game balance wise, trying to keep the game relatively well balanced. That means no "I win" buttons, no AT or power combinations that eclipse everything else. That doesn't mean that there can't be variances so long as they're not extreme - it's not possible or desired for everything to be equal - but well designed characters should still be rewarded by feeling powerful. It means that the meta-game should be interesting and there should be build choices to make with tradeoffs for making them, and that there shouldn't be one answer that's always right.
  
  There are also traditions to be maintained, so while things like MOAR RECHARGE almost always being better would seem to violate that philosophy, it's also extremely unlikely that I'd endorse any attempt to change it.
   
• A high priority for me at least is to make sure that nobody logs in one day and is dismayed to find their character plays completely differently (principle of least astonishment). That means small incremental changes rather than sweeping remakes of entire systems, and preferring to add new things rather than fix something that isn't broken. When things are broken or systems do need sweeping changes, try to keep them familiar, intuitive, and true to the subjective 'feel' of the game. When we have internal discussions, I often like to play devil's advocate and demand a good reason for doing just about anything.
  
  I'm an old school wow player and I always dreaded expansion packs when the talent trees would be remade from scratch and sometimes entire game mechanics and character stats would be changed or removed. While this is a goal, the game does have to move forward and cannot stay frozen forever. The desire is to provide this for the vast majority - I'm painfully aware of cases already when some people feel that what I consider relatively minor changes completely ruin a character - but we sadly can't please everyone all the time.
   
• On the technical side, I place a high priority on making sure that the game continues to run on machines that people have been playing it with for years -- that's why we take steps to try to keep it running on old clunkers even though MS has long dropped support for their operating systems. Backwards compatibility is a Big Things for me and I always try to push for maximizing it.
  
  At the same time, I want a cleaner, future-proof framework and have been the driving force behind a lot of the modernization project: the 64-bit port, upgrade to using more modern tools (there's a sweet spot where XP cross builds are still possible), refactoring into new cross-platform libraries, and reorganizing the source tree to make it easier to navigate.

Those 3 big points - told from the perspective of someone who works mainly on engine code and backend server stuff - probably don't even scratch the surface of what you're asking. What about new powerset design, priorities for costume parts, story content, animation and mission maps? There's a ton of stuff I'd love to write a novel on but it still wouldn't feel finished, and there are other complicating factors as well that will sort themselves out in time. So for now I'm going to just keep doing what I'm doing and hunt for bugs to be fixed, create new toys to give to powers designers (hint: keep an eye on Singularity), and slowly clean up the code base while the content team gets to do the fun stuff.

One of the best Dev posts I've seen on a gaming forum in a long time. . .

[TemporalVileTerror]

Also, another small note:
Sorry @GM Tahquitz and everyone.  I meant @Telephone when I had said "Lighthouse" in https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/22631-hey-devs-can-you-please-some-or-all-of-this-to-hc/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-327004.  I had forgot to do my fact-check there.

[ScarySai]

The only thing that has made me ever even consider trying out Tspy are the necromancy changes.

 

I'm alllllll about that Diablo 2 life.

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, Number Six said:

 (hint: keep an eye on Singularity)

Whaaaaat?

Edited February 24, 2021 by Myrmidon

[Galaxy Brain]

6 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Whaaaaat?

It's going to have /Regen and thus be nerfed

[PainX]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It's going to have /Regen and thus be nerfed

hah no you cant nerf pets that's a give and take just like TW so in compensation simply fix the AI 😉 cant wait for singy to finaly make it to a pack before it is allready dead

[Bionic_Flea]

19 hours ago, Number Six said:

(hint: keep an eye on Singularity)

 

Singularity finally masters reverse repel so now all things are drawn to it, just like a real singularity!  . . . wait . . . why does that Singularity look like Katamari Damacy?

 

RUN!!!

Edited February 24, 2021 by Bionic_Flea

[Galaxy Brain]

50 minutes ago, PainX said:

hah no you cant nerf pets that's a give and take just like TW so in compensation simply fix the AI 😉 cant wait for singy to finaly make it to a pack before it is allready dead

Not to leak anything from closed alpha but...

 

 

[Aeroprism]

There are other CoH servers? o_0

I just googled them and.. well, no thanks.  

 

I never considered Homecoming as "A server".  To me, Homecoming -IS- City of Heroes.  Everything here meshes so well together, the continuity is so well planned and executed, the community is so solid, it's the real deal.  

 

I'll be happy with whatever the devs give us and ever since I jumped back, it's been nothing less than the same joy I felt on live.  It's all I need, really.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Aeroprism said:

There are other CoH servers? o_0

I just googled them and.. well, no thanks.  

 

I never considered Homecoming as "A server".  To me, Homecoming -IS- City of Heroes.  Everything here meshes so well together, the continuity is so well planned and executed, the community is so solid, it's the real deal.  

 

I'll be happy with whatever the devs give us and ever since I jumped back, it's been nothing less than the same joy I felt on live.  It's all I need, really.

HC is for sure the best community! Though, there are certainly plenty of cool things out in the wild (like @ScarySaimentioned we need to... proliferate some Necromancy changes hehe), but your mileage will definitely, definitely vary in terms of quality when it comes to not only the community, but the professionalism and general game quality.

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, Aeroprism said:

Homecoming -IS- City of Heroes.

This. Until the doors close, always this.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

HC is for sure the best community! Though, there are certainly plenty of cool things out in the wild (like @ScarySaimentioned we need to... proliferate some Necromancy changes hehe), but your mileage will definitely, definitely vary in terms of quality when it comes to not only the community, but the professionalism and general game quality.

Pretty much. There are some . . . interesting changes on the other servers. Also for the folks that say things are easy on HC, there are some difficulty options on one or two servers that are VERY masochistic also. lol

[Starhammer]

Just want to say how much I appreciate the turn this thread has taken. It's wonderful to see such thoughtful responses from members of development. @TemporalVileTerror, never let anyone convince you to stop asking us to be better. It may be because it's so often overly optimistic and unrealistic in this culture that we need that the most.

I'll be the first to admit I'm often critical, all to often harshly so, of the developers. Maybe fortunately, I just don't post a lot of it, just bottling it up inside until it settles into the mesh of emotional substrate that makes up my general distrust of authority. But it's rarely anything personal, and more often an impatience derived from ignorance. Please keep up the great work that you do, even (especially) in spite of any dissatisfaction I may share. I'm a buffet of ideas. Take what you like and pass on the rest (just don't try to ruin something you don't like, it might be just what someone back in the line was looking for).

FWIW, there's a lot of talk about "feeling powerful" which, I get, is part of superhero RP, and generally fits most other genres as well... However, for me at least, "feeling powerful" is really just a subsection of "feeling useful." Is what I can do contributing significantly to the efforts of those around me? For instance, sometimes my FF Defender feels like a benevolent god, shielding everyone from attacks, and other times, feels like a useless afterthought along for the ride as most enemies just punch through defenses. One of my favorite builds is a 2xLeadership VEAT, because even when they don't do amazing damage on their own, they make everyone better at almost everything. More important than being able to just tank multiple GMs or one shot enemies, while those are of course very useful, but specific ways of contributing, is anything that makes my presence and active/skilled/inspired participation make others feel like "Hey, this is more fun (or less frustrating) because that guy showed up and took part." Sure, that's a little vague and subjective, but there's a lot of that going on here, huh?

Anyway, priorities for me in what development of this game entails are less about raw power, and more about the facilitation and accommodation of my creativity and contributions. That backend stuff @Number Six talks about is really important of course, and certainly nothing I would ever want to deprioritize, but it's not subject matter I can speak to with any reasonable competence either. So for me, what I want more of, is presentation options... costumes, animations, power effects, and the ability to customize them. Also Interface stuff that makes it easier to make my character do what I want them to do (Controls and Keybinds) and know what's going on with what I'm doing (Graphic interface) with the capacity to customize to accommodate physical impairments I and others may have to deal with (in my case, it's poor reflexes and attention focus issues from a mild stroke, others have other issues of course). I still have more to master of course, but I take great satisfaction in being able to use binds/macros to offset that I can't move the cursor around and click stuff with anywhere near the expediency of most gamers, and greater satisfaction in helping others to learn how to make their gaming experience better through binds/macros as well.

I should cut this off before my rambling gets anymore off-topic.

I love that Spiderbot for Arachnos, and melee Defenders are something I've wanted since I realized a lot of support powers work best when I'm in the middle of the action.

[Bionic_Flea]

On 2/24/2021 at 9:29 AM, Bionic_Flea said:

 

Singularity finally masters reverse repel so now all things are drawn to it, just like a real singularity!  . . . wait . . . why does that Singularity look like Katamari Damacy?

 

RUN!!!

I called it!  From the most recent patch notes: 

Quote

•  Gravity Control > Singularity

  • Singularity will now slowly pull enemies towards it, allowing it to make much greater use of the Repel effect

 

[archgemini24]

On 2/24/2021 at 12:19 AM, ScarySai said:

The only thing that has made me ever even consider trying out Tspy are the necromancy changes.

 

I'm alllllll about that Diablo 2 life.

 

Kheldians got love in a few spots that make them play differently on each server, which is nice for changing things up. Some of the suggestions made here for /Regen made their way out, too. Flipside? Got to see the ridiculousness that Freeform Melee toons can achieve (or at least get to IO levels of power without IOs), so while that is nice to play around with, I can see why that hasn't made it anywhere else.

 

Anything else? Homecoming. The others act as (mostly) non-deleting test servers.